What we are Forgetting

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Smitty37

Passed Away Mar 29, 2018
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July 4 1776...our forefathers signed a document that the central theme was

We hold these truths to be self evident (meaning they needed no explaination and apply to all people at all times) that all men are created equal (meaning made by God)
and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, (meaning some rights come from God - not from governement) that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness --- That to secure these rights governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the concent of the governed.

The United States is unique in that it is the first and only government ever formed on such a basis.

Our society, in my opinion, is forgetting those principles at a very rapid rate...I think we'd better turn around soon before they are all gone. Today we celebrate - we also need to remember what we celebrate.
 
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I find it disturbing how we all can agree on what that document means and how our elected officials forget why we sent them there as OUR representative. It seems they forget what that great document intended and what those great men gave up for our freedoms. And would they be willing to make that same sacrifice in the name of liverty and justice for all?
 
The Declaration of Independence is the Philosophy behind our system of representative, democratic government and is implemented by a framework named the United State Constitution.

The brilliant leaders who convinced the people of their day to adopt the USC by way of writing The Federalist Papers clearly explained what the implementation would mean. Although it's a difficult read, imnshPo absorbing TFP is crucial to truly knowing what the framers were intending.

The greatest loses we face today are individuals without knowledge of the foundation of this great system of government and lack of leadership and STATESMANSHIP by those holding office -- in all parties at all levels.
That is the true tragedy.

With liberty, freedom and justice for all.
On this day, celebrate the bravery of those who would not be enslaved by dictatorial government and instead formed these United States of America.

Happy Fourth of July.

Gary G
 
Garry,

Here here and amen to your sentiments.

As a person with American family who lived through and contributed to the Declaration and paid a heavy toll for their beliefs and sufferings over and beyond my imagination I can say the effects are still momentous in this day and age and I too salute those brave men and their strong women and children, to declare against all odds remains bravery personified.

We here in Australia are decended largely from the same stock, signature I think 42 was from my family roots in Scotland where incredible plagues, national conflicts and border wars had been fought for ages and ages, imprisonment by the Brits on Scottish family already enabled these folks a first hand sample of rough justice already sufferred.

I owe as you do a debt to these people of foresight to be aware of both the wording , circumstances involved. On this forum then it is easy to see how quickly we judge and can get carried away losing the true meaning of tollerance and care for one another and I have renewed my determination to honour these the declarations in my life and my situation here by tolerance and sharing.

Curious to here in Canada they have a compared escape from the Brits but like us in Australia remain committed to the British Commonwealth under whom we have indeed sufferred terribly in my family experiences.

May the standards set be maintained is my strongest desire for all. Happy 4th.

Kind regards Peter.
 
Sadly, many of the people we have sent to Washington DC do not remember (or conveniently choose to ignore) that they are servants of the people. Instead, they act like royalty, and choose to decide what is best for us.

Once we get a majority of voters that understand this, and vote most of the bums out, to be replaced by a majority that do understand the Constitution, and govern by it, can we get sweeping change. Only then will we be able to return to our roots, and live in true freedom as our founders intended.
 
Our beloved country has fallen into the same trap as Union membership, we have all become too fat and lazy, too complacent and satisfied with what we think we own, to stand for what is right and stand up against what is wrong. Do not take this wrong, it is not just you that I am talking about, I stand right there at the front with you. Everything I complain about, I see when I look into the mirror.

Mr. Einstein explained it similar to this, This world will not be destroyed by evil people, but by good people standing by allowing the evil ones to go unchecked. We get the government we deserve by allowing others to do us in. Having the VOTE is a right and privilege. The biggest problem with any right is that right always comes with responsibility.

Mr Franklin told us that any person willing to give up any right for security deserves neither. Just because our Founding Fathers gave all for our rights does not mean we can keep them without giving something ourselves. Yes, I give thanks every day for the brave and selfless souls that gave me my freedoms and rights and for those who daily lay their lives on the line to protect those rights and freedoms.

May God bless the USA and care for all those brave heroes that defend her shores.

Charles
 
And yet, nearly 20% of the population was denied those unalienable rights.

For everything they had right, there was a lot that they also had wrong.

I remember this day as the birth of an imperfect nation. One that continues to grow and evolve. One that can be the greatest country ONLY if we put in the efforts to make it so.
 
Smitty, I hate to rain on your parade but that's simply a white wash document created for rich white people to feel good!

Let me see if I can add a few bits for clarification....


July 4 1776...our forefathers signed a document that the central theme was

We hold these truths to be self evident (meaning they needed no explaination and apply to all people at all times) that all men are created equal (meaning made by God)

I guess they didn't consider the native Americans since they didn't once flinch as they drove westward slaughtering everything that got in their way; men, women, children, never minding that these native Americans had lived on these lands for thousands of years. I guess it didn't matter though, probably because they were savages and couldn't read any of our grand documents!

I think they also over looked the black folks living here as well. I don't know a lot about equality but going to sleep on a dirt floor bound with steel shackles just doesn't sound equal to another man drifting off to sleep in a goose down mattress and warm blankets.


and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, (meaning some rights come from God - not from governement) that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness --- That to secure these rights governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the concent of the governed.

The United States is unique in that it is the first and only government ever formed on such a basis.

Our society, in my opinion, is forgetting those principles at a very rapid rate...I think we'd better turn around soon before they are all gone. Today we celebrate - we also need to remember what we celebrate.

I have struggled for years trying to figure out exactly what it is we are supposed to be celebrating! Now that I live in Arizona, I live amongst many native Americans, both Apache and Navajo, and to hear some of the first hand accounts of how they, and their ancestors are/were treated no better than dogs is deplorable. Doesn't make me want to go out and wave a flag!


Just my opinion......
 
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The Declaration of Independence is the Philosophy behind our system of representative, democratic government and is implemented by a framework named the United State Constitution.

The brilliant leaders who convinced the people of their day to adopt the USC by way of writing The Federalist Papers clearly explained what the implementation would mean. Although it's a difficult read, imnshPo absorbing TFP is crucial to truly knowing what the framers were intending.

The greatest loses we face today are individuals without knowledge of the foundation of this great system of government and lack of leadership and STATESMANSHIP by those holding office -- in all parties at all levels.
That is the true tragedy.

With liberty, freedom and justice for all.
On this day, celebrate the bravery of those who would not be enslaved by dictatorial government and instead formed these United States of America.

Happy Fourth of July.

Gary G
Agreed - I have not read all of them myself but I have read most. Lincoln in his 1st innaugural address said the Constitution is the Frame of Silver around the Apple of Gold -- the Apple of Gold was the declaration of independence.

Today our education system is so bad that few (even most with advanced degrees) have ever read, much less taken a course that studied either the constitution or the declaration. I read both in high school American History.

What a sad state of affairs. The two most important documents ever written - from the perspective of our nation - and most of us know almost nothing about them.
 
Smitty, I hate to rain on your parade but that's simply a white wash document created for rich white people to feel good!

Let me see if I can add a few bits for clarification....


July 4 1776...our forefathers signed a document that the central theme was

We hold these truths to be self evident (meaning they needed no explaination and apply to all people at all times) that all men are created equal (meaning made by God)

I guess they didn't consider the native Americans since they didn't once flinch as they drove westward slaughtering everything that got in their way; men, women, children, never minding that these native Americans had lived on these lands for thousands of years. I guess it didn't matter though, probably because they were savages and couldn't read any of our grand documents!

I think they also over looked the black folks living here as well. I don't know a lot about equality but going to sleep on a dirt floor bound with steel shackles just doesn't sound equal to another man drifting off to sleep in a goose down mattress and warm blankets.

and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, (meaning some rights come from God - not from governement) that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness --- That to secure these rights governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the concent of the governed.

The United States is unique in that it is the first and only government ever formed on such a basis.

Our society, in my opinion, is forgetting those principles at a very rapid rate...I think we'd better turn around soon before they are all gone. Today we celebrate - we also need to remember what we celebrate.

I have struggled for years trying to figure out exactly what it is we are supposed to be celebrating! Now that I live in Arizona, I live amongst many native Americans, both Apache and Navajo, and to hear some of the first hand accounts of how they, and their ancestors are/were treated no better than dogs is deplorable. Doesn't make me want to go out and wave a flag!

Just my opinion......
That the principles were not perfectly implemented does not imply that they are not correct. Unfortunately slavery was allowed by the Constitution and it took about 90 or so years to end it, and we are still feeling the effects today. But, who can say where we would be if the framers (a majority of them opposed slavery) had insisted that the slaves be freed?

We only know that we would not be here...Virginia wanted slavery and without Virginia there would have been no nation.

The Constitution never applied to the Native Americans they were not citizens and did not want to be. Their land was taken from them by conquest and as conquored peoples they were not well treated by the conquorers...In this world there is a long history of that.

The framers recognized full well that men are imperfect - if men were perfect - governments would not be needed. Madison made that clear in one of the federalist papers where he said words to the effect that if we were governed by angels we would not need the constitution...he further said if men were angels we wouldn't need government.

If I give you a recipe for apple pie calling for a cup of sugar and a pinch of salt and you add a cup of salt and a pinch of sugar - that does not imply that the recipe was no good.

They are also responsible that you can hold and express your opinion freely. Many places in this world you could not.
 
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And yet, nearly 20% of the population was denied those unalienable rights.

For everything they had right, there was a lot that they also had wrong.

I remember this day as the birth of an imperfect nation. One that continues to grow and evolve. One that can be the greatest country ONLY if we put in the efforts to make it so.

The declaration is the recipe - that the implementation was less than perfect - does not make the recipe wrong ... it makes men imperfect, which I think most of us will readily acknowledge.

The constitution is a practical document - designed to secure as many of those rights to as many people as they could. But it was written 13 years after the declaration and after about 8 years of operating under the Articles of Confederation which was not a true republic. They did a heck of a good job. Most republics have not lasted nearly as long as we have.

People of the world who have wanted to leave where they were, didn't want to come to this country in greater numbers than they wanted to go anywere else because this was bad country. Perhaps not perfect but better to more people than anyplace else.
 
Well put

July 4 1776...our forefathers signed a document that the central theme was

We hold these truths to be self evident (meaning they needed no explaination and apply to all people at all times) that all men are created equal (meaning made by God)
and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, (meaning some rights come from God - not from governement) that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness --- That to secure these rights governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the concent of the governed.

The United States is unique in that it is the first and only government ever formed on such a basis.

Our society, in my opinion, is forgetting those principles at a very rapid rate...I think we'd better turn around soon before they are all gone. Today we celebrate - we also need to remember what we celebrate.

That's very well put and I agree 100%
 
I'd agree except don't believe that some invisible man was my 'creator'.
That is a different discussion. btw Just for the record I don't believe an invisible man is your creator either.

The question is do you believe that you have certain rights that trancend government; or, do you believe that the only rights you have are those specifically given to you by government. Those are the only two possibilities - if you believe the first - where do those rights come from.
 
Texatdurango said:
…
and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, (meaning some rights come from God - not from governement)…
Actually, that isn't what it means. It means that they are rights that man cannot be separated from, given away, or taken away. They recognized that "all" rights come from our creator. And, any rights/authority possessed by the government is by consent of the people. We are born with these rights, and they were simply stating a selection of some of the inalienable ones ("among them…").

And yet, nearly 20% of the population was denied those unalienable rights.

For everything they had right, there was a lot that they also had wrong.

I remember this day as the birth of an imperfect nation. One that continues to grow and evolve. One that can be the greatest country ONLY if we put in the efforts to make it so.

The declaration is the recipe - that the implementation was less than perfect - does not make the recipe wrong ... it makes men imperfect, which I think most of us will readily acknowledge.

The constitution is a practical document - designed to secure as many of those rights to as many people as they could. But it was written 13 years after the declaration and after about 8 years of operating under the Articles of Confederation which was not a true republic. They did a heck of a good job. Most republics have not lasted nearly as long as we have.

People of the world who have wanted to leave where they were, didn't want to come to this country in greater numbers than they wanted to go anywhere else because this was bad country. Perhaps not perfect but better to more people than anyplace else.

From my observations, this belief is fomented much like the typical criticisms I often see of Christianity. That is, "Lack of understanding and knowledge." How many people here are actually calling what Smitty posted in his original post, "The Declaration of Independence", when it's actually is not the DOI, but merely the preamble to the DOI? How many people who went to public school actually did study the DOI? I remember showing the DOI to my mother (Masters in Education), only to see/hear her dismay by stating, "But ghostrider, they're doing many of those things right now." It is now without merit to say that our forefathers started a violent revolution over much less that what we now experience. People think the know and understand the documents, but are basing that belief/knowledge on what they've been told or heard, rather than the actual document.

That is at the core of what Gary touched upon, except it isn't the DOI that is, "…Philosophy behind our system of representative, democratic government." For one thing, it isn't a democratic government. As a reader of the FP, and AFP he would know that one of them differentiates the difference between a democracy, and the republic we have. Furthermore, The DOI is a document that itemizes the grievances that the colonists had against the king. It reads like a court document outlining the transgressions of the defendant, and I don't think that's what he actually meant by calling it the, "…philosophy…government…"


This may well sound "nitpicky", but that's how it happens. I know that for years I believed the preamble to be that actually document, until I in fact read it and discovered differently.
 
Way back, even before there was dirt, in the eighth grade history class we were required to recite from memory both the Gettysburg Address and the DOI, not just the Preamble, but the whole thing. Today, most high school grads could not even read the DOI. I know, I know, times change, but not always for the better. Just my $0.04(inflation)
Charles
 
Texatdurango said:
…
and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, (meaning some rights come from God - not from governement)…
Actually, that isn't what it means. It means that they are rights that man cannot be separated from, given away, or taken away. They recognized that "all" rights come from our creator. And, any rights/authority possessed by the government is by consent of the people. We are born with these rights, and they were simply stating a selection of some of the inalienable ones ("among them…").
Ghostrider, please get your quotes right. I didn't make the comments above. I'm the one who said this is all just a white wash document created for rich white people to feel good! The above comments were made by Smitty.
 
Way back, even before there was dirt, in the eighth grade history class we were required to recite from memory both the Gettysburg Address and the DOI, not just the Preamble, but the whole thing. Today, most high school grads could not even read the DOI. I know, I know, times change, but not always for the better. Just my $0.04(inflation)
Charles
We let it happen. When we decided education was something that we could use to balance the budget.
 
Texatdurango said:
…
and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, (meaning some rights come from God - not from governement)…
Actually, that isn't what it means. It means that they are rights that man cannot be separated from, given away, or taken away. They recognized that "all" rights come from our creator. And, any rights/authority possessed by the government is by consent of the people. We are born with these rights, and they were simply stating a selection of some of the inalienable ones ("among them…").
Actually that is exactly what it means - every one of the delegates - understood all of the several terms ( "natures God" and Devine Providence") being two two others referring to God as referring to God.

The meaning is that certain rights come from a higher authority than Government. What governments give governments can take away so unalienable rights MUST come from somewhere else.

And yet, nearly 20% of the population was denied those unalienable rights.

For everything they had right, there was a lot that they also had wrong.

I remember this day as the birth of an imperfect nation. One that continues to grow and evolve. One that can be the greatest country ONLY if we put in the efforts to make it so.

The declaration is the recipe - that the implementation was less than perfect - does not make the recipe wrong ... it makes men imperfect, which I think most of us will readily acknowledge.

The constitution is a practical document - designed to secure as many of those rights to as many people as they could. But it was written 13 years after the declaration and after about 8 years of operating under the Articles of Confederation which was not a true republic. They did a heck of a good job. Most republics have not lasted nearly as long as we have.

People of the world who have wanted to leave where they were, didn't want to come to this country in greater numbers than they wanted to go anywhere else because this was bad country. Perhaps not perfect but better to more people than anyplace else.

From my observations, this belief is fomented much like the typical criticisms I often see of Christianity. That is, "Lack of understanding and knowledge." How many people here are actually calling what Smitty posted in his original post, "The Declaration of Independence", when it's actually is not the DOI, but merely the preamble to the DOI? How many people who went to public school actually did study the DOI? I remember showing the DOI to my mother (Masters in Education), only to see/hear her dismay by stating, "But ghostrider, they're doing many of those things right now." It is now without merit to say that our forefathers started a violent revolution over much less that what we now experience. People think the know and understand the documents, but are basing that belief/knowledge on what they've been told or heard, rather than the actual document. It ia in fact the first part of The Declaration, it states the justification --- the authority as it were ---- for declaring independence and justifying revolution.

As you mention below it is followed by an indictment showing where King George and Parlement had violated the principles layed down in what you are incorrectly referring to as a preamble. Under British Law almost all of the things they listed in the "indictment" against King George were perfectly legal actions. It was only by invoking the higher authority for their rights and that ligitimate government power came from the concent of the governed that they could claim their rights were violated.

That is at the core of what Gary touched upon, except it isn't the DOI that is, "…Philosophy behind our system of representative, democratic government." For one thing, it isn't a democratic government. As a reader of the FP, and AFP he would know that one of them differentiates the difference between a democracy, and the republic we have. Furthermore, The DOI is a document that itemizes the grievances that the colonists had against the king. It reads like a court document outlining the transgressions of the defendant, and I don't think that's what he actually meant by calling it the, "…philosophy…government…"


This may well sound "nitpicky", but that's how it happens. I know that for years I believed the preamble to be that actually document, until I in fact read it and discovered differently. What you are calling the preamble is in fact the most important part of the document....it states why, what King George is, later in the document,accused of warrants revolution to overthrow the government and institute a new one. That is hardly "preamble". The reason most people think that the first part is the declaration is because it is - it is by far the most important part of the document and that is the reason it is the part most often referred to when people refer to the declaration.
Yes the framers of the Constitution did in fact reject democracy a system destined to fail in very short order and they believed there was no way to prevent that. They instead chose a Republic with a few new and unusual variations.
 
Texatdurango said:
…
and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, (meaning some rights come from God - not from governement)…
Actually, that isn't what it means. It means that they are rights that man cannot be separated from, given away, or taken away. They recognized that "all" rights come from our creator. And, any rights/authority possessed by the government is by consent of the people. We are born with these rights, and they were simply stating a selection of some of the inalienable ones ("among them…").
Ghostrider, please get your quotes right. I didn't make the comments above. I'm the one who said this is all just a white wash document created for rich white people to feel good! The above comments were made by Smitty.
Sorry, my mistake.
 
Texatdurango said:
…
and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, (meaning some rights come from God - not from governement)…
Actually, that isn't what it means. It means that they are rights that man cannot be separated from, given away, or taken away. They recognized that "all" rights come from our creator. And, any rights/authority possessed by the government is by consent of the people. We are born with these rights, and they were simply stating a selection of some of the inalienable ones ("among them…").
Actually that is exactly what it means - every one of the delegates - understood all of the several terms ( "natures God" and Devine Providence") being two two others referring to God as referring to God.

The meaning is that certain rights come from a higher authority than Government. What governments give governments can take away so unalienable rights MUST come from somewhere else.

And yet, nearly 20% of the population was denied those unalienable rights.

For everything they had right, there was a lot that they also had wrong.

I remember this day as the birth of an imperfect nation. One that continues to grow and evolve. One that can be the greatest country ONLY if we put in the efforts to make it so.

The declaration is the recipe - that the implementation was less than perfect - does not make the recipe wrong ... it makes men imperfect, which I think most of us will readily acknowledge.

The constitution is a practical document - designed to secure as many of those rights to as many people as they could. But it was written 13 years after the declaration and after about 8 years of operating under the Articles of Confederation which was not a true republic. They did a heck of a good job. Most republics have not lasted nearly as long as we have.

People of the world who have wanted to leave where they were, didn't want to come to this country in greater numbers than they wanted to go anywhere else because this was bad country. Perhaps not perfect but better to more people than anyplace else.

From my observations, this belief is fomented much like the typical criticisms I often see of Christianity. That is, "Lack of understanding and knowledge." How many people here are actually calling what Smitty posted in his original post, "The Declaration of Independence", when it's actually is not the DOI, but merely the preamble to the DOI? How many people who went to public school actually did study the DOI? I remember showing the DOI to my mother (Masters in Education), only to see/hear her dismay by stating, "But ghostrider, they're doing many of those things right now." It is now without merit to say that our forefathers started a violent revolution over much less that what we now experience. People think the know and understand the documents, but are basing that belief/knowledge on what they've been told or heard, rather than the actual document. It ia in fact the first part of The Declaration, it states the justification --- the authority as it were ---- for declaring independence and justifying revolution.

As you mention below it is followed by an indictment showing where King George and Parlement had violated the principles layed down in what you are incorrectly referring to as a preamble. Under British Law almost all of the things they listed in the "indictment" against King George were perfectly legal actions. It was only by invoking the higher authority for their rights and that ligitimate government power came from the concent of the governed that they could claim their rights were violated.

That is at the core of what Gary touched upon, except it isn't the DOI that is, "…Philosophy behind our system of representative, democratic government." For one thing, it isn't a democratic government. As a reader of the FP, and AFP he would know that one of them differentiates the difference between a democracy, and the republic we have. Furthermore, The DOI is a document that itemizes the grievances that the colonists had against the king. It reads like a court document outlining the transgressions of the defendant, and I don't think that's what he actually meant by calling it the, "…philosophy…government…"


This may well sound "nitpicky", but that's how it happens. I know that for years I believed the preamble to be that actually document, until I in fact read it and discovered differently. What you are calling the preamble is in fact the most important part of the document....it states why, what King George is, later in the document,accused of warrants revolution to overthrow the government and institute a new one. That is hardly "preamble". The reason most people think that the first part is the declaration is because it is - it is by far the most important part of the document and that is the reason it is the part most often referred to when people refer to the declaration.
Yes the framers of the Constitution did in fact reject democracy a system destined to fail in very short order and they believed there was no way to prevent that. They instead chose a Republic with a few new and unusual variations.
Something to think about.

But.

I don't think they meant, "...all men are endowed by their creator with certain rights given them by their creator."

I wasn't saying that they didn't mean "God", by the use of, "Creator.", just that inalienable does not mean, "...by God, or God given."
 
I agree with everything that has been said on this thread. If so many of us feel this way then why do we continue to allow the government to walk all over our rights every day? We need to do more than talk about it, we need to act! I fight for my unborn grandchildren's future. I am the 4th generation that has served this country, my great grandfather fought in WWI. my grandfather is in history books for what he did in WWII, my dad was in the jungle in Vietnam and I was in the desert. We need to do more to protect the rights that we have already earned. Dont just talk a good game, play the field and kick some butt along the way! The Bozo that is sitting in the white house is making a mockery of everything that this country was founded on. Obama is out in November! He has made no positive contribution to the American society. In my perfect world, blue collar workers will take over all of the controlling seats in the government and start running it based on " a days work equals a days pay" theory. We all know that will never happen so we just keep dumping millions into a useless "take everything I can get without earning it" society while our elected white collar government keeps making it easier to be a leach on the veins of hard working family's.
 
Smitty, I hate to rain on your parade but that's simply a white wash document created for rich white people to feel good!

Let me see if I can add a few bits for clarification....


July 4 1776...our forefathers signed a document that the central theme was

We hold these truths to be self evident (meaning they needed no explaination and apply to all people at all times) that all men are created equal (meaning made by God)

I guess they didn't consider the native Americans since they didn't once flinch as they drove westward slaughtering everything that got in their way; men, women, children, never minding that these native Americans had lived on these lands for thousands of years. I guess it didn't matter though, probably because they were savages and couldn't read any of our grand documents!

I think they also over looked the black folks living here as well. I don't know a lot about equality but going to sleep on a dirt floor bound with steel shackles just doesn't sound equal to another man drifting off to sleep in a goose down mattress and warm blankets.

and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, (meaning some rights come from God - not from governement) that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness --- That to secure these rights governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the concent of the governed.

The United States is unique in that it is the first and only government ever formed on such a basis.

Our society, in my opinion, is forgetting those principles at a very rapid rate...I think we'd better turn around soon before they are all gone. Today we celebrate - we also need to remember what we celebrate.

I have struggled for years trying to figure out exactly what it is we are supposed to be celebrating! Now that I live in Arizona, I live amongst many native Americans, both Apache and Navajo, and to hear some of the first hand accounts of how they, and their ancestors are/were treated no better than dogs is deplorable. Doesn't make me want to go out and wave a flag!

Just my opinion......
Because ot that document (and by the way your "reason" for it's creation is absoutely and totally wrong - sometime read what happened to those "rich" white men after they signed it) and the sacrafices the writers and others made you are entitled to that opinion.
 
Very interesting and spirited conversation. I have only two things to say:

Happy 4th.

Thanks to all the veterans, you make us all proud!
 
And yet, nearly 20% of the population was denied those unalienable rights.

For everything they had right, there was a lot that they also had wrong.

I remember this day as the birth of an imperfect nation. One that continues to grow and evolve. One that can be the greatest country ONLY if we put in the efforts to make it so.

The declaration is the recipe - that the implementation was less than perfect - does not make the recipe wrong ... it makes men imperfect, which I think most of us will readily acknowledge.

The constitution is a practical document - designed to secure as many of those rights to as many people as they could. But it was written 13 years after the declaration and after about 8 years of operating under the Articles of Confederation which was not a true republic. They did a heck of a good job. Most republics have not lasted nearly as long as we have.

People of the world who have wanted to leave where they were, didn't want to come to this country in greater numbers than they wanted to go anywere else because this was bad country. Perhaps not perfect but better to more people than anyplace else.


The declaration was not a recipe. it was justification. It says These are the rights we believe we have, this is how you have violated them, and as such we have the right to break with you and go off on our own as we see fit.

It even says later in the preamble (the remainder of the sentence you cut in half) " That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness" meaning: people forming a government should do so as they see fit. So the recipe is "make it your way".

and

The first thing it says is by unanimous declaration of the 13 states. yet if you asked the people who signed it if they intended for the Natural rights they listed to be applied to slaves not all would have given their consent. These are the rights they saw for themselves as gentry. You are reading "all men" as "all people" which was not their meaning. Slaves weren't considered men (treated as property and not guaranteed a vote until the 1870's). women weren't considered men (treated as property and not guaranteed a vote until the 1920's).

Now I'll leave you to get the last word.
 
And yet, nearly 20% of the population was denied those unalienable rights.

For everything they had right, there was a lot that they also had wrong.

I remember this day as the birth of an imperfect nation. One that continues to grow and evolve. One that can be the greatest country ONLY if we put in the efforts to make it so.

The declaration is the recipe - that the implementation was less than perfect - does not make the recipe wrong ... it makes men imperfect, which I think most of us will readily acknowledge.

The constitution is a practical document - designed to secure as many of those rights to as many people as they could. But it was written 13 years after the declaration and after about 8 years of operating under the Articles of Confederation which was not a true republic. They did a heck of a good job. Most republics have not lasted nearly as long as we have.

People of the world who have wanted to leave where they were, didn't want to come to this country in greater numbers than they wanted to go anywere else because this was bad country. Perhaps not perfect but better to more people than anyplace else.


The declaration was not a recipe. it was justification. It says These are the rights we believe we have, this is how you have violated them, and as such we have the right to break with you and go off on our own as we see fit.

It even says later in the preamble (the remainder of the sentence you cut in half) " That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness" meaning: people forming a government should do so as they see fit. So the recipe is "make it your way".

and

The first thing it says is by unanimous declaration of the 13 states. yet if you asked the people who signed it if they intended for the Natural rights they listed to be applied to slaves not all would have given their consent. These are the rights they saw for themselves as gentry. You are reading "all men" as "all people" which was not their meaning. Slaves weren't considered men (treated as property and not guaranteed a vote until the 1870's). women weren't considered men (treated as property and not guaranteed a vote until the 1920's).

Now I'll leave you to get the last word.
I have read quite a lot about what the founding fathers had to say about what the declaration meant. I disagree with several things you said but will address only two.

Men as used in the statement "all men are created equal" did in fact include all human beings and they meant that the "God given rights" they spoke of did belong to all human beings. The words "men" and "man" today are still used in the context of encompassing all human beings - that is one of the definitions of those words and that is what it means in the context of the declaration.

To say they were "gentry" interested only in their own selfish interests is, in my opinion, so far wrong that it is unbelievable that anyone can really believe that for at least the following reasons.

1. They were taking on the greatest military power on the planet with a very small ill equiped army in a war than any betting person would have wagered they would lose. In fact, they had no real reason to think they wouldn't lose.

2. If they lost they would surely have faced imprisonment or worse - more likely execution for treason against the King.

3. There was little to be gained and much to be lost economically from the war - England had the means to cut off trade, disrupt shipping and ship building and in general reduce their income and wealth. The taxes they objected to were very small and would have had little impact on them.

4. They were mostly already men of distinction, held in high esteme by the citizens of the colonies where they lived. Again there was much to be lost and little to be gained, if the war was lost (and there was a more than real chance that it would be) they were "toast".

5. Support for the war among the colonists was far from unaminus ... there were many of their peers who were perfectly satisfied with things the way they were.

6. Reality is that many of them came out of the war worse off financially and no better off otherwise, then they were before the declaration.
 
July 4th is over and this thread has a lot of politics in it that really does not fit on IAP due to our Acceptable Use Policy, specifically the part about discussion of politics or religion. I saw it yesterday and decided to leave it since it was the 4th of July but now that it has passed, I believe it is time to close this thread. Thank you.
 
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