Is it conceitful or just!!!!!

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sumterdad

sumterdad

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I have seen others pen at their house and st craft shows and I wonder to myself how are they asking money for them. Now I know I have been only turning for a few months but I have been trying to do better on quality. And it surprises me that some people see theirs as good quality as to where I would probably strip the barrels and start over. Just thinking out loud. Let me know what y'all think.
 
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After we tiled my parent's house, the whole house, I would look at people's tiling job and ask myself how they got paid for doing such a crap job. I think it is normal for people who are some what on the perfectionist wagon to see things and wonder this. Others just want to see it done.
 
Yes there are some pen turners whose quality sucks but where is the solution? Do we as a forum carry some of the burden of blame?

I can recall many times where members posted pens in the SOYP forum that needed a LOT of work, some were noticably sub-standard or just plain ugly and they were asking for comments and suggestions but instead of honest comments all they got were...... "outstanding workmanship", "freaking gorgeous", "unbelievable, the best I've ever seen", etc.

Then, off they went cranking out more of the same thinking they were good to go instead of working on their craftsmanship, fit and finish and overall look.

The only way to advance penmaking and make our pens more acceptable to the public is to help others to make nicer pens and quit cranking out crap for a quick buck.

And one way to help them is to tell them when they make a crappy pen that they made a crappy pen!
 
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Yeah, I have seen that also. It is all part of the learning process. If that is all the person knows, then it is the best of the best to them. As we learn what better pens look like, both by seeing others and on here, we get a different perspective on quality
 
Texatdurango said:
Yes there are some pen turners whose quality sucks but where is the solution? Do we as a forum carry some of the burden of blame?

I can recall many times where members posted pens in the SOYP forum that needed a LOT of work, some were noticably sub-standard or just plain ugly and they were asking for comments and suggestions but instead of honest comments all they got were...... "outstanding workmanship", "freaking gorgeous", "unbelievable, the best I've ever seen", etc.

Then, off they went cranking out more of the same thinking they were good to go instead of working on their craftsmanship, fit and finish and overall look.

The only way to advance penmaking and make our pens more acceptable to the public is to help others to make nicer pens and quit cranking out crap for a quick buck.

And one way to help them is to tell them when they make a crappy pen that they made a crappy pen!
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Yep and the very reason I added part of my signature line.......fact is the "critiques" here are so soft I am often leery of being honest, so I just dont comment. The one thing I took from art school was how important peer review can be.
 
maxwell_smart007 said:
Look at your own pens in a year or so, and you'll notice a difference too. I'm embarrassed at my first efforts, but proud as a peacock at the time...

Likely those sellers just don't see the faults.
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Well Im still not proud as a peacock of the majority of my work but my customers tell me otherwise. This is for certian my work has improved dramatically since I joined the IAP! While I was in Michigan one of my first customers broke out the pen she purchased from me.......it was all I could do to keep from taking it back!
 
I usually ask the person how long they have been making pens. If they say 3 months I let it pass because I remember what I was doing at 3 months. If they say 8 years, then I think either
a. this guy has found his perfect work to cost ratio
b. this guy needs to find a new ophthalmologist.

Oh, and allow me to add. My mom always told me, "If you do good work, you won't have to tell others, they will tell you". Which is very similar to something I read the other day...."Do you see a man who http://www.penturners.org/forum/#_ftn1excels in his work? He will stand before kings; He will not stand before http://www.penturners.org/forum/#_ftn2unknown men."http://www.penturners.org/forum/#_ftn3
 
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Texatdurango said:
Yes there are some pen turners whose quality sucks but where is the solution? Do we as a forum carry some of the burden of blame?

I can recall many times where members posted pens in the SOYP forum that needed a LOT of work, some were noticeably sub-standard or just plain ugly and they were asking for comments and suggestions but instead of honest comments all they got were...... "outstanding workmanship", "freaking gorgeous", "unbelievable, the best I've ever seen", etc.

Then, off they went cranking out more of the same thinking they were good to go instead of working on their craftsmanship, fit and finish and overall look.

The only way to advance pen making and make our pens more acceptable to the public is to help others to make nicer pens and quit cranking out crap for a quick buck.

And one way to help them is to tell them when they make a crappy pen that they made a crappy pen!
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George I couldn't agree more. If it is someone that I know, then I will tell them just what I think. They know that I mean no disrespect and my comments are merely my observations and what I think might help them in the long run. A good example was the finial on Chucks pen yesterday. Unfortunately we can't do that with everyone. Some people will take offense when only help is being offered. Heck I could even see Eagle asking someone if they have ever considered selling their lathe after showing a pen. :eek::biggrin: But everyone can't handle blunt and honest. Sometimes we just have to rely on the old saying our parents taught us. "If you can't say anything nice then don't say anything at all." It is not going to help the person, but it is not going to hurt them either.

My advice if you want honesty, then ask for critiques when you SOYP. If you don't want someone to tell you where you can improve your skills then just say look at my purdy pen. There is no reason we can't have it both ways in this forum.
 
If anything, this forum is friendly to the point of not stepping on toes. Now I like to post pens from time to time, but the best review I ever got was when someone said he thought he could see some scratches in my pen (it was ebony). He was right though. Since then, I've made an effort to do a better job of finishing pens. But I also think it's natural to get better when you gain experience.

There have been a few occasions when I posted something privately to someone and asked them for their "Brutal" opinions. I've learned more from those PM's than all the other posts combined.

My suggestion is to use your friends on this forum, or locally, and ask them to be perfectly honest. Just be prepared to hear something other than "Beautiful!!".
 
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IPD_Mr said:
Texatdurango said:
Yes there are some pen turners whose quality sucks but where is the solution? Do we as a forum carry some of the burden of blame?

I can recall many times where members posted pens in the SOYP forum that needed a LOT of work, some were noticeably sub-standard or just plain ugly and they were asking for comments and suggestions but instead of honest comments all they got were...... "outstanding workmanship", "freaking gorgeous", "unbelievable, the best I've ever seen", etc.

Then, off they went cranking out more of the same thinking they were good to go instead of working on their craftsmanship, fit and finish and overall look.

The only way to advance pen making and make our pens more acceptable to the public is to help others to make nicer pens and quit cranking out crap for a quick buck.

And one way to help them is to tell them when they make a crappy pen that they made a crappy pen!
Click to expand...

George I couldn't agree more. If it is someone that I know, then I will tell them just what I think. They know that I mean no disrespect and my comments are merely my observations and what I think might help them in the long run. A good example was the finial on Chucks pen yesterday. Unfortunately we can't do that with everyone. Some people will take offense when only help is being offered. Heck I could even see Eagle asking someone if they have ever considered selling their lathe after showing a pen. :eek::biggrin: But everyone can't handle blunt and honest. Sometimes we just have to rely on the old saying our parents taught us. "If you can't say anything nice then don't say anything at all." It is not going to help the person, but it is not going to hurt them either.

My advice if you want honesty, then ask for critiques when you SOYP. If you don't want someone to tell you where you can improve your skills then just say look at my purdy pen. There is no reason we can't have it both ways in this forum.
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I completely agree! It's one reason I don't really comment much in SOYP's. I don't find people ever critique the pens honestly. Any pen with sanding marks IMO should be commented on but no one does but lots say 'great job'.

AK
 
There is also a way to critique without being hurtful or mean. Lets take Mike's comment of Chuck's pen for example (he did bring it up).

OK Chuck, I am going to be the one to tell you what I don't care for on this one. The overall shape including the nose cone are great. Heck even the amount the refill sticks out through the nose cone looks spot on. What I don't care for is the roundness from the body to the clip ring and then the roundness from the clip ring to the finial. I think that fit should be flush and smooth. Except for that transition your pen looks vintage in material and shape. I think you should make a section with the same threads as the aluminum nose cone so that your pen can be both a rollerball and a fountain pen.
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He was honest, but not brutally so. He knew that Chuck had handled other critiques before in a positive manor. This was not piling on but rather encouragement with a desire to see him do better. This is a prime example of helpful criticism if there ever was one.
 
Yea I love it when I get praise for my pens but I really appreciate when someone says it looks good but!!!!!
 
While I am new to pen turning and this forum, I would like to share some insight from some pipe smoker's and makers forums I am part of.

The general pipe smoker's forums will ooh and ah over a pipe I post. Really now, you have to trust me on this, but my ego does not need any bolstering. On a forum dedicated to pipe makers, I get a totally different response. It is honest. Not brutal or mean, but just plain honest. Guess which one I learn the most from?

There is no reason to be mean and tell someone they made nice junk. But let's point out both areas of improvement and what they have right.

Right now I don't feel have the bona fides to critique another turner's work.

Please remember my name. When I post pictures in SOYP, it is for the purpose of getting feedback so I can improve.

BTW, I am a grumpy old codger, so I doubt if anyone here can hurt my feelings.
 
As a landscaper, and a damn good one, I tend to automatically critique all of the landscaping work I walk past doing other stuff. It's a natural reflex after years of basically completely renovating so many landscaping jobs. I have had to quit doing that in the last couple of years, but I still catch myself doing it every so often. I tend to overlook the "Crap Job" they did and focus on the positives, and with pen critique I try to be very clear that I'm not blasting someone just to be an a$$ and try to be respectful with it.
 
Good thread and some great responses!

It is sometimes hard to find that right "critique" without sounding critical. One doesn't have to be blunt and rude to be honest.

I too see cheap work done and paid for in house repairs, tile work, plumbing, furniture making and pen making also - often in areas that I as a non-professional do better work in my own home. It makes me wonder if I could make a living at doing some of those jobs if I was paid accordingly. :rolleyes:

Most all the new folks here that I have seen make progress, some faster than others but they all seem to make progress. However, I have seen out in general public people who seem to settle for "good enough" rather than striving for perfection.
 
Would Ford compliment General Motors or Chrysler on a design or the quality of their vehicles. The Ford team may admit amongst themselves that the competition made a real winner, but would probably never tell the world.

So why should a penturner expect compliments from another penturner? You may be 1000's of miles apart or next door neighbors, but if you are selling your product you are competition. If I was a penturner and depended on it for even part of my living I would never post any of my work. Everything that is posted publicly is "fair" game to be copied and either butchered or improved up on. Your innovative ideas can be copyrighted, trademarked and written up in the journals of time, but they can be copied for personal use and most times you will never know about it.

Don't waste your time looking I am not a penturner trying to make a living at it, and I have never posted a pen on IAP. I am a hobby turner, I am the one that gives pens away or if I sell them I sell them for what I want, and that is usually a lot less than you would want me to. I am one of only a few, there are thousands that read IAP, but only hundreds that post on a weekly basis.

If you are looking for compliments then look to your customers for them. They are your source of sales. If you have customers you are doing something right. If you feel you don't sell enough, then you need to look at what you make, how good is it, is the price right, did you find your customer niche and a few hundred other issues. If you are in business then you have to treat it like a business.
 
I always hesitate to be truly honest about pens on here. The reason is that I do not see it from others. I try to encourage, especially newbies, just as I need and wanted encouragement as I was beginning. I have on occasion mentioned tried to offer some constructive criticism when it appeared the posted was wanting honesty. Sometimes I just don't say anything.

As to what I post on SOYP, I welcome any constructive criticism. I want to improve and critiques on this forum would help me do that. I realize that not everyone can handle that, but I can.
 
Self-critique

leehljp said:
Good thread and some great responses!

It is sometimes hard to find that right "critique" without sounding critical. One doesn't have to be blunt and rude to be honest.


If one wants to effect positive change and provide "criticism" who better than the person that made the pen. I'd ask them; "What would you do to improve your work?" There are sufficient examples of high quality workmanship presented within this forum for anyone to compare their work against. An honest apprasel would compel the individual to confront his/her work objectively. Then they would see, mmmmm, fit is a bit off, the finish isn't even or glossy as they would like.

For years I taught military and airline pilots to fly some sophisticated machines. At the debriefing I'd always first ask them, "What did you think of your performance?" What do you feel you could improve upon?" Once they fininshed with a self-evaluation, usually there was little for me to say beyond "Ok, this is what we are going to work on to fix those areas."

Those who genuinely seek improvement will measure themselves against a higher standard. When one measures their work against lesser work, a person will convince themselves of how wonderful and talented they are. Yet when they measure against a higher standard, they can accept that they are less skilled and live with it, or strive to improve.

jmoicbw-bidi

butch
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It's kinda scarry, reading this. Now I don't know if he's been fluffing me (that's lying but I hate that word) about my pens or if he's just saying "I gotta be nice cause I married your daughter" !!! Nope, only joking. Trust me, If Mike knows you and you don't want a truthfull answer, good or bad, DON"T ask. Now! after reading these notes (Thanks George), I am on a new bend. I have seen pics with "Great Job, "Awesome Pen", etc. And I have thought "WHAT???? That pen is a POS! Make note, from this day forward, If I think that of your pen, I'm going to tell you, That's if you ask for honest review! I hope you will do the same for me. I have a background in photography. If I think the pen is good but the photo sucks, I'm going to tell you that too. If you would like help there, all it takes is a PM. One of the things I have appreciated most about IAP is the willingness of members to assist other members. It has been a great help to me, now I just hope I can repay by helping some others. That can't work without honesty. Please don't be angry with me for honest criticism. If it get's past the moderators, it must be o.k. Right Glen? :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


IPD_Mr said:
Texatdurango said:
Yes there are some pen turners whose quality sucks but where is the solution? Do we as a forum carry some of the burden of blame?

I can recall many times where members posted pens in the SOYP forum that needed a LOT of work, some were noticeably sub-standard or just plain ugly and they were asking for comments and suggestions but instead of honest comments all they got were...... "outstanding workmanship", "freaking gorgeous", "unbelievable, the best I've ever seen", etc.

Then, off they went cranking out more of the same thinking they were good to go instead of working on their craftsmanship, fit and finish and overall look.

The only way to advance pen making and make our pens more acceptable to the public is to help others to make nicer pens and quit cranking out crap for a quick buck.

And one way to help them is to tell them when they make a crappy pen that they made a crappy pen!
Click to expand...

George I couldn't agree more. If it is someone that I know, then I will tell them just what I think. They know that I mean no disrespect and my comments are merely my observations and what I think might help them in the long run. A good example was the finial on Chucks pen yesterday. Unfortunately we can't do that with everyone. Some people will take offense when only help is being offered. Heck I could even see Eagle asking someone if they have ever considered selling their lathe after showing a pen. :eek::biggrin: But everyone can't handle blunt and honest. Sometimes we just have to rely on the old saying our parents taught us. "If you can't say anything nice then don't say anything at all." It is not going to help the person, but it is not going to hurt them either.

My advice if you want honesty, then ask for critiques when you SOYP. If you don't want someone to tell you where you can improve your skills then just say look at my purdy pen. There is no reason we can't have it both ways in this forum.
Click to expand...
 
dogcatcher said:
Would Ford compliment General Motors or Chrysler on a design or the quality of their vehicles. The Ford team may admit amongst themselves that the competition made a real winner, but would probably never tell the world.

So why should a penturner expect compliments from another penturner? You may be 1000's of miles apart or next door neighbors, but if you are selling your product you are competition. If I was a penturner and depended on it for even part of my living I would never post any of my work. Everything that is posted publicly is "fair" game to be copied and either butchered or improved up on. Your innovative ideas can be copyrighted, trademarked and written up in the journals of time, but they can be copied for personal use and most times you will never know about it.

Don't waste your time looking I am not a penturner trying to make a living at it, and I have never posted a pen on IAP. I am a hobby turner, I am the one that gives pens away or if I sell them I sell them for what I want, and that is usually a lot less than you would want me to. I am one of only a few, there are thousands that read IAP, but only hundreds that post on a weekly basis.

If you are looking for compliments then look to your customers for them. They are your source of sales. If you have customers you are doing something right. If you feel you don't sell enough, then you need to look at what you make, how good is it, is the price right, did you find your customer niche and a few hundred other issues. If you are in business then you have to treat it like a business.
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As a fairly new pen turner I am happy to have this forum to post my pens. Yes I hope to get compliments, but i hope that if someone does see something that I can inprove on I would hope that they would share their knowledge with me. Yea we may sell them but that doesnt mean we cant help each other out. That is what I like about this forum is the brotherhood, and sisterhood that we have here. There is always someone willing to help you learn. But you will never know where to improve if all you do is turn them and hand them out. I have learned so much by posting my pens, that i dare say that I never would be able today to post a decent looking pen. The bottom line is I do not agree with your theory not that I am being critical but I just think that if you are not willing to post a pic of your pen to learn from others. Anyway thats just my .02
 
Rah, Rah, Rah, Good for you! Thanks for leaving the market open!

\
dogcatcher said:
Would Ford compliment General Motors or Chrysler on a design or the quality of their vehicles. The Ford team may admit amongst themselves that the competition made a real winner, but would probably never tell the world.

So why should a penturner expect compliments from another penturner? You may be 1000's of miles apart or next door neighbors, but if you are selling your product you are competition. If I was a penturner and depended on it for even part of my living I would never post any of my work. Everything that is posted publicly is "fair" game to be copied and either butchered or improved up on. Your innovative ideas can be copyrighted, trademarked and written up in the journals of time, but they can be copied for personal use and most times you will never know about it.

Don't waste your time looking I am not a penturner trying to make a living at it, and I have never posted a pen on IAP. I am a hobby turner, I am the one that gives pens away or if I sell them I sell them for what I want, and that is usually a lot less than you would want me to. I am one of only a few, there are thousands that read IAP, but only hundreds that post on a weekly basis.

If you are looking for compliments then look to your customers for them. They are your source of sales. If you have customers you are doing something right. If you feel you don't sell enough, then you need to look at what you make, how good is it, is the price right, did you find your customer niche and a few hundred other issues. If you are in business then you have to treat it like a business.
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BSea said:
If anything, this forum is friendly to the point of not stepping on toes. Now I like to post pens from time to time, but the best review I ever got was when someone said he thought he could see some scratches in my pen (it was ebony). He was right though. Since then, I've made an effort to do a better job of finishing pens. But I also think it's natural to get better when you gain experience.

There have been a few occasions when I posted something privately to someone and asked them for their "Brutal" opinions. I've learned more from those PM's than all the other posts combined.

My suggestion is to use your friends on this forum, or locally, and ask them to be perfectly honest. Just be prepared to hear something other than "Beautiful!!".
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But you never asked me....









Scott (your harder on your pens then anyone) B
 
I sometimes wonder if the posters who say "great pen" or some such remark, are comparing the work to their own!:wink:

I also think that there is room for a forum for "critiques" where experienced turners and knowledgeable woodworkers could provide the critiques and newbies could learn from the various comments. Not as a forum to "bash" or "flame" persons asking for a critique, but as a learning tool for everyone.

Possibly could also use a category in the library such as "How to learn" a. sanding b. finishing c. polishing d. casting, etc. Perhaps that could deflect some of the "tell me how you did that" requests for secrets, when they could be learned with a little effort.

No offense is intended in this post, just a yearn to learn!:biggrin:
 
Maybe this site would benefit from a split in the SOYP forum into a show off and a critique requested forum. Then folks who want to be critiqued can post there and these folks who think they have a critique can comment. Others can post their pens for those who want to just see pens.

From experience on photo sites this solved many of the problems that people have mentioned here.
 
Maybe I am missing something and I certainly don't want to stir the pot, but from reading the first post, nobody asked for their work to be critiqued.
 
If the person has asked for a critique, I try and be as honest as I can, if the pen is turned proud or under turned I will say so in a nice (for me) manner, If it looks good I will also say it does, but if it's just really bad, I normally won't say any thing. I have seen a couple of first pens that have been pretty good, one in particular yesterday a new turner did a Euro/ designer that looked pretty darned good, and I told him it did. I'n not going to pile it on, but we've got some true pen makers on here, and I love seeing there work, it amazes me.
 
What this forum is missing is an "anonymous" post your pens section, where both the poster AND those making comments remain unknown.

This would open up real, meaningful critique of the work presented. Perhaps it could be divided into three sections: less than one year experience, one to three years experience and Veteran pen-makers.
 
OLDMAN5050 said:
After reading this thread I think I will quit posting my work..............
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No Kidding.

When I post a pic, I don't delude myself that it's going to stand up to the masterpieces that I've seen posted. Penturning is how I relax after work and if I held myself to those exacting standards it wouldn't be relaxing. I spend a certain amount of time and effort per pen and see what I wind up with.

This is a pen turning forum. It's the point of commonality for everyone here. So I post in SOYP when I do something new, or make a pen that I'm particularly pleased with by my own standards in order to be part of this community and build my identity here. I am gingerwood and this is what I've been playing with today. I'm not after brutal honesty, the people who want that generally ask for it outright. I'm very aware of flaws in my work, I also know that I'm getting better with time and practice.

And to be honest, I *like* looking at pens of all levels of skill.
 
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PenMan1 said:
What this forum is missing is an "anonymous" post your pens section, where both the poster AND those making comments remain unknown.

This would open up real, meaningful critique of the work presented. Perhaps it could be divided into three sections: less than one year experience, one to three years experience and Veteran pen-makers.
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I agree with Pen Man............
 
PenMan1 said:
What this forum is missing is an "anonymous" post your pens section, where both the poster AND those making comments remain unknown.

This would open up real, meaningful critique of the work presented. Perhaps it could be divided into three sections: less than one year experience, one to three years experience and Veteran pen-makers.
Click to expand...


I really REALLY like this idea!
 
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