Product Reference Rules

[Bree]

I like it the way it used to be. I think the volume of ads has dramatically diminished to the detriment of the average subscriber. Many products that we used to see are gone now. We lost something valuable IMHO.

Respectful conduct is something that is definable and enforceable. It really should be self policed by the members with input from mods in extreme cases. Vendors are privileged to be able to reach a highly targeted market here. They should recognize that privilege and be on best behavior or expect disciplinary action... even in the case of paid ads. There is no place for disrespect in a forum like this.

That said, the loss of free classifieds for non-commercial transactions is really quite painful. I was very sorry to see it go. I hope that you guys will one day reconsider.

My $.02

 

[jeff]

That said, the loss of free classifieds for non-commercial transactions is really quite painful. I was very sorry to see it go. I hope that you guys will one day reconsider.

My $.02

We have the FREE Deals, Trades, Gifts, and Wanted forum for selling personally owned items. Is that what you mean?

 

[jeff]

Respectful conduct is something that is definable and enforceable. It really should be self policed by the members with input from mods in extreme cases. Vendors are privileged to be able to reach a highly targeted market here. They should recognize that privilege and be on best behavior or expect disciplinary action... even in the case of paid ads. There is no place for disrespect in a forum like this.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on how to implement this. PM if you have time.

If by self-policed you mean that any member could call someone out on disrespectful or tasteless conduct, I don't see that working. There are nearly an equal number of people on both sides of most issues.

 

[OOPS]

There were two things that bothered me as a frequent reader of this site. One of them I believe you have made substantial progress on solving.

1. I just hated those ads with 25 or more "PM sent." Thank you for getting rid of that nonsense! However, (to me, anyway) it seems still too difficult to determine which of the 20 lots of blanks are still for sale, and which are still available. If I read your new rules correctly, it would cost a vendor more to make several different posts, than one large one, which contributes to the clutter. It would be easier for the potential buyers perspective if the items were listed separately, then the whole ad can be pulled once the item is sold. Just my two cents here.

2. I don't mind other members offering solutions, suggestions and help, then having their web site links in their signature area. After all, if they are willing to take the time to help those who are less experienced, we might want to visit their website and thank them for their kindness by making a purchase. What I really object to, however, is the billboard-sized signatures that take up way too much space. One member (who I won't identify) seemed to take great delight in his new billboard and couldn't wait to display it over and over. Each new post had a reply from this individual, which basically said "nice pen" or "great idea" followed by this giant ad for his website. Now, this individual has calmed down substantially since then, and I just decided I wouldn't purchase from this person. But it would be nice if they could say that they make blanks, sell kits, etc, without having a huge multi-colored display ad on their signature line.

Finally, I know that many people in this day and age can't wait to complain about something. If you tried to fix every problem based upon a complaint or two, you'd do nothing but change the rules back and forth. I tend to prefer less regulation instead of more, as people who are offended by some posts can always decide to move to the next one, instead of read it and report it to the moderator as offensive.

Overall, I think this site is really quite good, much better than most sites with this many members.

 

[BRobbins629]

I voted don't care as what ever changes there are will not significantly affect what I read and what I post. My wishes would be that the apparent pettiness among some of the vendors would stop. I don't know specifically who they are but they would be the ones continually pressing the yellow triangles and sending pms to the mods. If that stopped, than maybe the rules could be relaxed a little and some of the silliness would abate. So tell me when that happens and I will change my vote to "relax the rules".

 

[jeff]

I don't know whether rules need changing or just clarifying clearly?

I know don't mention what pen supplies I use, tools I've purchased or parts Ive used. I don't know whether I'm allowed to say this is a pen made from a blank by ****? Or to recommend a supplier or person I know and have bought similar items from, but know they are ideal for the situation.

I don't know what would lead you to believe that you cannot do either one of those things. Point me to that section of the rules and I will remove or clarify it because BOTH of those things are perfectly fine. :biggrin:

Thanks for the comment!

 

[Texatdurango]

........I agree, but here's the problem........

Vendor A feels he's not getting equal treatment and demands it
Vendor A complains that Vendor B is getting favorable treatment
Vendor A complains that the mods are out to get him
Vendor A musters his pals for a post reporting or PM campaign
Vendor A sends me and mods insulting PMs
Vendor A pushes the envelope on his next thread just to "get even" so when vendor B complains, he's ready to say "Well you let B do it!"

This happens every day. Less now, but still happens EVEN WITH the detailed rules we have.

...... It's a shame, isn't it?

Jeff, With ALL due respect, what the hell is vendor A still doing here?

To actually have someone continually send you insulting PM's then to let them stay on to continue causing problems is beyond me. Why? Is one individual THAT important to the well being of the forum that you and the mods have to put up with this petty nonsense every day?

I can remember a time when the ONLY thing I can recall being sold on the forum was was TSW (remember that stuff, that was about as controversial as it got! ) and the forum did just fine, now several people would have us believe the forum would fold like a house of cards if a vendor or two were to leave or be ejected. This forum wasn't built on the ability to buy from fellow members and it won't be the downfall for the lack of buying oppurtunities either. I don't think members will suffer for the lack of having a place to buy their supplies, there's ALWAYS a place to buy anything!

I think if the one or the few who are giving you the most grief were let go and word got around, then perhaps the others would look at the money they are making and think....... being a pain in the butt isn't worth loosing this income, I think I'll straighten up.

You're constantly searching for answers, this hasn't been tried yet, perhaps it might just work! Now it's my turn to get a few nasty PM's for rocking the boat! :biggrin:

 

[Smitty37]

Don't answer

Some of you may know that I am a vendor. I do not respond at all to questions such as "what is the best..." "who has the lowest prices on ..." or "where can I get..." even if they involve a product that I am the only seller for. Generally speaking I've even quit reading them.

I am not willing to spend a whole lot of my time trying to figure out if I can give an answer that will pass muster. I get more than enough "moderation" to suit me without going into any of that.

With regard to whether or not I can answer .... I don't think that can be fixed by rule. Who is a vendor? One who supports IAP by advertising? One who has been listed as a vendor (I'm not by the way)? One who ran a few ads and sold some blanks last year? One who sells but does not advertise? Sellers of opportunity who find a great piece of wood every now and then and share? All of the above?

 

[Bree]

That said, the loss of free classifieds for non-commercial transactions is really quite painful. I was very sorry to see it go. I hope that you guys will one day reconsider.

My $.02

We have the FREE Deals, Trades, Gifts, and Wanted forum for selling personally owned items. Is that what you mean?

Ooops I never really noticed this. I just kinda naturally look for the classifieds. Of course the fact that I missed it is significant in some way though I am not totally sure what it is! LOL! Sorry about that.

 

[Bree]

Respectful conduct is something that is definable and enforceable. It really should be self policed by the members with input from mods in extreme cases. Vendors are privileged to be able to reach a highly targeted market here. They should recognize that privilege and be on best behavior or expect disciplinary action... even in the case of paid ads. There is no place for disrespect in a forum like this.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on how to implement this. PM if you have time.

If by self-policed you mean that any member could call someone out on disrespectful or tasteless conduct, I don't see that working. There are nearly an equal number of people on both sides of most issues.

Self policing occurs when subscribers "remind" people acting poorly that they are outside the boundary of good conduct and the rules. Happens under the mod radar for the most part though mods can see it. Minimizes mod time and makes the mod job easier. They really only interject when situations start getting out of control.

As for methods to enforce good conduct on vendors... $$$ is what they understand... that is their language. Act disrespectfully or violate rules of fair play... your next x number of ads are surcharged. EZ to publish a basic list of surcharges and for extraordinary situations Mgmt can zing you extra as befits the situation. You are paying the bills and you have the right.

When the cost of ads is bumped because of stupid behavior one of two things is going to happen... the stupidity stops quickly or they go act stupidly somewhere else. In either case, you have solved your problem and done so in a relatively painless way.

Anyhoo that is one idea that might have some traction.


PS Long time subscribers with excellent behavior can be "rewarded" for sensible self policing efforts. Good for them and good for you.

 

[Displaced Canadian]

If we were all exactly the same this would be easier. :biggrin: I think it would be good if a vendor could answer questions about a product because they are kinda the experts on it. However finding a way to do this that all would see as helping and not advertising is a more difficult issue. I think the new format is cleaner looks more like a newspaper and no longer like a bulletin board.

 

[avbill]

jeff, there was a discussion about taps & die in relationship to kitless pens. Some one answered the question with a private email to the author of the question. It left me in out in the cold-- about the answer of the question. Some how it needs to be revisited [the rules] that is.

 

[MesquiteMan]

I think some folks are reading too much into the rules. There is nothing there that prevents a vendor from answering questions related to something they sell. They just can not answer questions about where to get something with a reply that they sell it. If someone has a question about stabilizing, I am permitted to answer that question. If someone has a specific questions about my brand of stabilizing resin, I can also answer the question. I just can not turn my answer into an advertisement.

 

[Russianwolf]

If I have a question, or an answer, I'll post it. I;ll leave it to the mods to decide if it fits the rules. delete it and move on. I'm not going to waste too much time on it.

I don't sell directly much, but do sell in bulk to a vendor.

 

[trickydick]

I think the rules should stay as is for a little longer. Let them settle in for another month or so.

The forum does seem quiet and I do think members are worried about breaking the rules and we may be missing out on important information from some folks. Not sure how to make it better without going back to where we started.

I do know that I can always PM some of our excellent vendors and get answers to questions I may have.

 

[mtgrizzly52]

If I have a question, or an answer, I'll post it. I;ll leave it to the mods to decide if it fits the rules. delete it and move on. I'm not going to waste too much time on it.

I normally refuse to get involved in these discussions because it can become a "he says-she says" waste of time, but I really didn't find any problems with the previous rules. I'll be honest, there are some vendors that I really like and are more than willing to do business with, and there are others that...well not so much. For those that I generally don't buy from, I normally don't look at their ads.

I feel like Mike (Russianwolf) that if I have a question, need an answer, or want to make a general comment, I'm going to do it, keeping in mind the importance of respecting all members of the forum. If the modulators take exception to my post, I fully expect to hear from them in private what their objections are, and they have the right to delete my post.

The most important thing that has to be remembered here is, we are all adults, we need to treat each other with the utmost respect at all times (which by the way is what makes IAP the best forum I've ever been associated with) and yes, rules are important and need to be followed, but not be so strict, or complicated that those rules restrict the wonderful interactions that occur on IAP.

Rick (mtgrizzly52)

 

[hehndc]

To me, things seem too quiet. PMs keep others out of the loop. Some folks just seem bitchy to me and I guess the Mods just got tired of it (can't blame they/you for the changes.

Anyway, I liked it better the other way, but I don't have to put up with all the behind the scenes.

Do what you think is best for IAP and all will be well.

Just my two cents.

Jeff. thanks for asking.

Steve

 

[jeff]

My sincere thanks to you all for your thoughtful comments.

As much as I'd like to instantly turn a switch and make things better, the best I can do is tell you that I will ask the manager and mods to put their thinking caps on and we'll see what tweaks might be appropriate.

In the meantime, I'd encourage everyone to reread the rules for product reference before you assume that something is not allowed! Feel free to PM me if you have a question about the rules as well.

Keep in mind that what we INTENDED was to throttle back on the behavior of 0.001% of the members and make things more pleasant for everyone, not squash conversation in general. As they say, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" so I apologize if we've missed the mark. We'll get there!

Everyone have a great weekend.