DurocShark
Member
Monolith did better than I could... :biggrin:
Classifieds Overhaul
- Thread starter jeff
- Start date
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
- Status
I make a profit and i am not a vendor. Please explain?Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
Timebandit
Member
Ok thanks. Im wrong about the regular classifieds, but there is still a FREE section somewhere where you can post you blanks for sale for FREE, it is call Steals and Deals i believe.
Timebandit
Member
Monolith did better than I could... :biggrin:
This still doesnt make anyone who makes a profit a vendor. Monolith didnt explain that? Can you?
Timebandit
Member
Rules directly from Steals and Deals
Purpose: The Steals & Deals forum is intended for selling single and small lots of personally owned items. This might be a few extra kits you don't need, a used lathe or tool, some extra blanks, or similar items related to pen making. There is no cost to place an ad in Steals & Deals. (NOTE: For special circumstances which exceed the quantity limits described below, such as one-time liquidation of an entire shop, or an especially large number of items, please contact a moderator for instructions and permission to sell in Steals & Deals.
The General Rules for All Selling apply in Steals & Deals
All new threads in Steals & Deals are moderated: This means that they must be approved by a moderator before they will show up in the forum. This gives the moderators a chance to ensure that the items(s) you are selling are appropriate for Steals & Deals. It may be several hours after you create a new ad thread before it shows up in the forum.
Limited Followup Posts Allowed: Followup posts in ad threads are not moderated and will show up immediately. To reduce forum clutter and bumping, buyers and sellers must communicate via PM rather than in the forum. The following types of followup posts are allowed.
Rules:
Purpose: The Steals & Deals forum is intended for selling single and small lots of personally owned items. This might be a few extra kits you don't need, a used lathe or tool, some extra blanks, or similar items related to pen making. There is no cost to place an ad in Steals & Deals. (NOTE: For special circumstances which exceed the quantity limits described below, such as one-time liquidation of an entire shop, or an especially large number of items, please contact a moderator for instructions and permission to sell in Steals & Deals.
The General Rules for All Selling apply in Steals & Deals
All new threads in Steals & Deals are moderated: This means that they must be approved by a moderator before they will show up in the forum. This gives the moderators a chance to ensure that the items(s) you are selling are appropriate for Steals & Deals. It may be several hours after you create a new ad thread before it shows up in the forum.
Limited Followup Posts Allowed: Followup posts in ad threads are not moderated and will show up immediately. To reduce forum clutter and bumping, buyers and sellers must communicate via PM rather than in the forum. The following types of followup posts are allowed.
- From the Original Poster (OP) saying the item or a lot is sold.
- One per day from the OP with additional information, such as items remaining.
- From a followup poster saying "I'll take it", or "I'll take lots 1, 2, 5"
Rules:
- You may post one advertisement to sell per week
- Ads can run until the item sells, or for a maximum of one month
- Items which don't sell can be re-listed once per quarter
- You may have only one ad running at a time in this forum
- You may sell up to five items or groups of items (lots) in any one ad
- If you are selling lots, you may include at most five items in each lot
- You may not offer individual items from lots
- Prices must be specified for each item or lot
- Up to five photos may be included in your ad
- "Claiming posts" allowed for specific unique items. (i.e. blanks)
- One followup post per day from the OP
- If you also sell in the Classifieds, you may not sell similar items in Steals & Deals
DurocShark
Member
AKA: If you're selling to make a profit, you don't belong in S&D. If you're selling because you don't need something any more, then you belong.
For example, if I were to list my gold flake blanks, I would need to be in the Classifieds. But if I stopped making blanks and were unloading all my casting stuff including left over blanks, I might be ok to be in the S&D after checking with the mods.
This is, of course, my interpretation of the rules as posted and as discussed in this thread. Hopefully Jeff or Curtis will clarify.
Timebandit
Member
The only reason YOU would have to be in the Classifieds is because YOU are considered a vendor. You MAKE and SELL your blanks through another vendor and you advertise that in your sig line. I do not. I sell blanks and make a profit, but i dont sell blanks as my business to make money. I dont MAKE blanks, and i dont buy wood just to chop it up and sell it. I sell blanks that i need to unload, as you say, that are taking up room in my shop and i dont need them anymore, but i WILL make a profit on them. This does not make me a vendor. Nor does it Alice.
Ok,
I think I am beginning to understand.
Here is my situation. About 10 years ago I cleaned out a ware house housing a lot of corian and avonite. The payment for 5 days work, was material. That is the reason why I have so much. As I need money for my habit, I mean hobby, I try to put some boxes together and sell them. Where do I stand? I am not making and selling items, just trying to get rid of what I do not need.
Alice
I think I am beginning to understand.
Here is my situation. About 10 years ago I cleaned out a ware house housing a lot of corian and avonite. The payment for 5 days work, was material. That is the reason why I have so much. As I need money for my habit, I mean hobby, I try to put some boxes together and sell them. Where do I stand? I am not making and selling items, just trying to get rid of what I do not need.
Alice
Dave Turner
Member
Just another suggestion for Jeff and his helpers.
Have sub-forums in the Premium Classified section. Any vendor that wants to (and can maintain the IAP "seal of approval") can pay an annual fee to obtain their own sub-forum. This sub-forum becomes their own little "store" and each vendor can establish their own rules for how they want to run it within basic guidelines established by penturners.org LLC. If a vendor receives too many substantiated complaints, they are put on probation and, unless they turn things around, their sub-forum gets closed down. I see several benefits of this system:
Have sub-forums in the Premium Classified section. Any vendor that wants to (and can maintain the IAP "seal of approval") can pay an annual fee to obtain their own sub-forum. This sub-forum becomes their own little "store" and each vendor can establish their own rules for how they want to run it within basic guidelines established by penturners.org LLC. If a vendor receives too many substantiated complaints, they are put on probation and, unless they turn things around, their sub-forum gets closed down. I see several benefits of this system:
- I know exactly where to go to find out what the latest IAP specials are for my favorite vendors.
- More flexibility and more responsibility for vendors. They are accountable for what happens on their sub-forum.
- Extra revenue for penturners.org LLC
- Less clutter on the main classified forums from the major vendors.
- If a sub-forum vendor wants to, they can still pay the money for a post in the classified forum alerting people to visit their sub-forum for details on a special.
Wow, I'm going crosseyed from reading sixteen pages of posts! 
Just a few quick thoughts from my perspective.
Regarding the "thanks Jeff and mods" - there are more than just the mods and Jeff at work behind the scenes. There is a team of managers, and everyone had input and put hard work into the development of the classifieds.
The amount of money and time that goes into this site is evident every time you explore its pages. All of the time is donated, either by the mods and managers, by individuals like yourselves who come here and post often, and by Jeff himself. The site isn't listed as a not-for-profit, but its run by volunteers.
As far as a 'membership fee' goes, I'm vehemently against that. This is an education site. Some of us are retired and on fixed income, some are making big bucks, some of us are students with no income, etc. I do not believe that you should have to pay for your education, but should be free to donate what you think you get out of the site - hence the voluntary contribution idea. I do not think that this should/will change.
As far as the classified changes go, it is human nature to not like change, even when the change is for the better. I complained along with the rest when they put a roundabout in my town, but now that it's in, I see the rationale. There are reasons behind everything - we didn't make these changes on a whim.
When you go to a show, your are asked to pay for a booth fee. This fee is the cost of doing business in the show. The classifieds now have a booth fee, and it's extremely reasonable. Most posts in the classifieds make far more than five dollars profit - some make thousands. For the small business - if your business ad doesn't generate five or ten dollars of revenue, then you might want to consider a new business plan - perhaps through consolidating some of your ads into a larger one that's more economical.
If people are going to leave the IAP because an ad will cost five dollars, then perhaps they're not looking at WHY the IAP is here. It was not developed as a springboard to a classified or store - it was developed to further and advance penturning through education and discussion.
This isn't a 'squeeze', but rather asking those who profit from the IAP to begin to help pay for some of the improvements. The free 'make as much money as you can without even having to give $5 back' model will end soon - I think the new one is reasonable.
By asking for a reasonable fee to post an ad, the number of ads should decline. Instead of three ads with three blanks, that same person would likely post one ad with nine blanks - savings for him, less ads on the site, same number of shopping opportunities for us, and more money for the IAP to keep the lights on and maybe buy some new and improved lights! The IAP is not, and never has been, stagnant.
Just a few quick thoughts from my perspective. Regarding the "thanks Jeff and mods" - there are more than just the mods and Jeff at work behind the scenes. There is a team of managers, and everyone had input and put hard work into the development of the classifieds.
The amount of money and time that goes into this site is evident every time you explore its pages. All of the time is donated, either by the mods and managers, by individuals like yourselves who come here and post often, and by Jeff himself. The site isn't listed as a not-for-profit, but its run by volunteers.
As far as a 'membership fee' goes, I'm vehemently against that. This is an education site. Some of us are retired and on fixed income, some are making big bucks, some of us are students with no income, etc. I do not believe that you should have to pay for your education, but should be free to donate what you think you get out of the site - hence the voluntary contribution idea. I do not think that this should/will change.
As far as the classified changes go, it is human nature to not like change, even when the change is for the better. I complained along with the rest when they put a roundabout in my town, but now that it's in, I see the rationale. There are reasons behind everything - we didn't make these changes on a whim.
When you go to a show, your are asked to pay for a booth fee. This fee is the cost of doing business in the show. The classifieds now have a booth fee, and it's extremely reasonable. Most posts in the classifieds make far more than five dollars profit - some make thousands. For the small business - if your business ad doesn't generate five or ten dollars of revenue, then you might want to consider a new business plan - perhaps through consolidating some of your ads into a larger one that's more economical.
If people are going to leave the IAP because an ad will cost five dollars, then perhaps they're not looking at WHY the IAP is here. It was not developed as a springboard to a classified or store - it was developed to further and advance penturning through education and discussion.
This isn't a 'squeeze', but rather asking those who profit from the IAP to begin to help pay for some of the improvements. The free 'make as much money as you can without even having to give $5 back' model will end soon - I think the new one is reasonable.
By asking for a reasonable fee to post an ad, the number of ads should decline. Instead of three ads with three blanks, that same person would likely post one ad with nine blanks - savings for him, less ads on the site, same number of shopping opportunities for us, and more money for the IAP to keep the lights on and maybe buy some new and improved lights! The IAP is not, and never has been, stagnant.
With all due respect , since when is education free?
Is $25.00 a year really going to make or break some one? I really am not looking for a fight. The question was a valid one.
I have not ever been in a club where there is not a membership fee for operating cost.
That said I DO understand where this change is coming from. I just need to know here I stand.
I value this site more than any I have ever been to and have been here for 7 years. I would not want to give it up.
Cordially Alice
Is $25.00 a year really going to make or break some one? I really am not looking for a fight. The question was a valid one.
I have not ever been in a club where there is not a membership fee for operating cost.
That said I DO understand where this change is coming from. I just need to know here I stand.
I value this site more than any I have ever been to and have been here for 7 years. I would not want to give it up.
Cordially Alice
Wow, I'm going crosseyed from reading sixteen pages of posts!
Regarding the "thanks Jeff and mods" - there are more than just the mods and Jeff at work behind the scenes. There is a team of managers, and everyone had input and put hard work into the development of the classifieds.
The amount of money and time that goes into this site is evident every time you explore its pages. All of the time is donated, either by the mods and managers, by individuals like yourselves who come here and post often, and by Jeff himself. The site isn't listed as a not-for-profit, but its run by volunteers.
As far as a 'membership fee' goes, I'm vehemently against that. This is an education site. Some of us are retired and on fixed income, some are making big bucks, some of us are students with no income, etc. I do not believe that you should have to pay for your education, but should be free to donate what you think you get out of the site - hence the voluntary contribution idea. I do not think that this should/will change.
As far as the classified changes go, it is human nature to not like change, even when the change is for the better. I complained along with the rest when they put a roundabout in my town, but now that it's in, I see the rationale. There are reasons behind everything - we didn't make these changes on a whim.
When you go to a show, your are asked to pay for a booth fee. This fee is the cost of doing business in the show. The classifieds now have a booth fee, and it's extremely reasonable. Most posts in the classifieds make far more than five dollars profit - some make thousands. For the small business - if your business ad doesn't generate five or ten dollars of revenue, then you might want to consider a new business plan - perhaps through consolidating some of your ads into a larger one that's more economical.
If people are going to leave the IAP because an ad will cost five dollars, then perhaps they're not looking at WHY the IAP is here. It was not developed as a springboard to a classified or store - it was developed to further and advance penturning through education and discussion.
This isn't a 'squeeze', but rather asking those who profit from the IAP to begin to help pay for some of the improvements. The free 'make as much money as you can without even having to give $5 back' model will end soon - I think the new one is reasonable.
By asking for a reasonable fee to post an ad, the number of ads should decline. Instead of three ads with three blanks, that same person would likely post one ad with nine blanks - savings for him, less ads on the site, same number of shopping opportunities for us, and more money for the IAP to keep the lights on and maybe buy some new and improved lights! The IAP is not, and never has been, stagnant.
Last edited:
dhallnc
Member
Wow, I'm going crosseyed from reading sixteen pages of posts!
Regarding the "thanks Jeff and mods" - there are more than just the mods and Jeff at work behind the scenes. There is a team of managers, and everyone had input and put hard work into the development of the classifieds.
The amount of money and time that goes into this site is evident every time you explore its pages. All of the time is donated, either by the mods and managers, by individuals like yourselves who come here and post often, and by Jeff himself. The site isn't listed as a not-for-profit, but its run by volunteers.
As far as a 'membership fee' goes, I'm vehemently against that. This is an education site. Some of us are retired and on fixed income, some are making big bucks, some of us are students with no income, etc. I do not believe that you should have to pay for your education, but should be free to donate what you think you get out of the site - hence the voluntary contribution idea. I do not think that this should/will change.
As far as the classified changes go, it is human nature to not like change, even when the change is for the better. I complained along with the rest when they put a roundabout in my town, but now that it's in, I see the rationale. There are reasons behind everything - we didn't make these changes on a whim.
When you go to a show, your are asked to pay for a booth fee. This fee is the cost of doing business in the show. The classifieds now have a booth fee, and it's extremely reasonable. Most posts in the classifieds make far more than five dollars profit - some make thousands. For the small business - if your business ad doesn't generate five or ten dollars of revenue, then you might want to consider a new business plan - perhaps through consolidating some of your ads into a larger one that's more economical.
If people are going to leave the IAP because an ad will cost five dollars, then perhaps they're not looking at WHY the IAP is here. It was not developed as a springboard to a classified or store - it was developed to further and advance penturning through education and discussion.
This isn't a 'squeeze', but rather asking those who profit from the IAP to begin to help pay for some of the improvements. The free 'make as much money as you can without even having to give $5 back' model will end soon - I think the new one is reasonable.
By asking for a reasonable fee to post an ad, the number of ads should decline. Instead of three ads with three blanks, that same person would likely post one ad with nine blanks - savings for him, less ads on the site, same number of shopping opportunities for us, and more money for the IAP to keep the lights on and maybe buy some new and improved lights! The IAP is not, and never has been, stagnant.
Fee education? You don't have kids in school do you?
DurocShark
Member
To be honest, I disagree. But that's not for me to decide...
LandfillLumber
Member
No matter what your situation if you have a computer and internet your not going hungry and you could donate up to $5 In Michigan I can collect pop bottles in a day to pay the $5(come on its $5).Education has never been free public schools are ran with our tax money.A membership is not a terrible thing.I understand that new people to the site would be put off by it but this is the only down side anyone has posted yet(its a big one though).Maybe a membership that is only good for using the classified ads to buy or sell??Victor
Rick, you DO have a great product. I know that first hand :biggrin:
I am sorry that you don't feel you'll be able to advertise as you have. When we set the prices for the forums, we considered a number of things. One was that most serious vendors with a viable business model and who currently advertise constantly for free could afford an extra $130 a year (26 periods x $5). I hope you can find some way in the new scheme of things to continue to bring your excellent products to the membership.
glycerine
Member
Wow, I'm going crosseyed from reading sixteen pages of posts!
Regarding the "thanks Jeff and mods" - there are more than just the mods and Jeff at work behind the scenes. There is a team of managers, and everyone had input and put hard work into the development of the classifieds.
The amount of money and time that goes into this site is evident every time you explore its pages. All of the time is donated, either by the mods and managers, by individuals like yourselves who come here and post often, and by Jeff himself. The site isn't listed as a not-for-profit, but its run by volunteers.
As far as a 'membership fee' goes, I'm vehemently against that. This is an education site. Some of us are retired and on fixed income, some are making big bucks, some of us are students with no income, etc. I do not believe that you should have to pay for your education, but should be free to donate what you think you get out of the site - hence the voluntary contribution idea. I do not think that this should/will change.
As far as the classified changes go, it is human nature to not like change, even when the change is for the better. I complained along with the rest when they put a roundabout in my town, but now that it's in, I see the rationale. There are reasons behind everything - we didn't make these changes on a whim.
When you go to a show, your are asked to pay for a booth fee. This fee is the cost of doing business in the show. The classifieds now have a booth fee, and it's extremely reasonable. Most posts in the classifieds make far more than five dollars profit - some make thousands. For the small business - if your business ad doesn't generate five or ten dollars of revenue, then you might want to consider a new business plan - perhaps through consolidating some of your ads into a larger one that's more economical.
If people are going to leave the IAP because an ad will cost five dollars, then perhaps they're not looking at WHY the IAP is here. It was not developed as a springboard to a classified or store - it was developed to further and advance penturning through education and discussion.
This isn't a 'squeeze', but rather asking those who profit from the IAP to begin to help pay for some of the improvements. The free 'make as much money as you can without even having to give $5 back' model will end soon - I think the new one is reasonable.
By asking for a reasonable fee to post an ad, the number of ads should decline. Instead of three ads with three blanks, that same person would likely post one ad with nine blanks - savings for him, less ads on the site, same number of shopping opportunities for us, and more money for the IAP to keep the lights on and maybe buy some new and improved lights! The IAP is not, and never has been, stagnant.
These are my thoughts as well. As far as I know, the IAP forum was created for sharing info, asking and answering questions. It has slowly become a business hub. Some people have gotten a "free ride" for long enough, but I see why there are complaints, and I also see where there really aren't any grounds for those complaints.
Also, I see some people posting in this thread that have only been members for a few months. That's fine, don't get me wrong, you're free to share your thoughts just as much as I am, but the issues that are being addressed here are not ones that happened over the past few months. They have been ongoing for quite some time now. So you're not seeing things the way others are...
We discussed this for a year. It's an interesting idea. However, the small (less than 10) sampling of vendors I contacted wanted more in exchange for their money than I was willing to give. Such as the right to post any number of threads, the right to conduct any discussions, even those not related to their product, and the right to moderate messages in their forums. I am always open to rethinking ideas I previously discarded, so this is certainly on the table. Another forum I frequent for flashlight geeks uses this concept and it seems successful.
alphageek
Former Moderator
Guys and gals,
I want to make a point that will clarify a lot of the debate and questions, and "thoughts" in the last page or so.
There was a lot of questions and thoughts about "vendors" and "profit". Look again at the first 4 sets of rules (the ones specifically about selling). Vendor doesn't appear a single time and profit only appears once.
This is NOT about who is a vendor and who isn't. There is still a ton of options and choice here. I'll use Alice for example (just because I think its a good one to show this).
Alice has a supply of corian that she sells at a very reasonable price. Focusing on $5 more for selling a box of corian make its seem unreasonable. However, an occasional ad where she lists that she has 10 boxes available in the $5 section puts the overhead at only 50 cents a box. I've purchased from her. I would easily have paid $1 more for the box and it would have still been an incredible deal (for everyone except my mailman!). Is she a vendor (dunno, don't care, doesn't matter!). Is it a deal breaker - heck no. Is what she is selling still a better deal than ANYWHERE I can find - YES.
I really suggest that if you have thoughts for improvement - suggest them... Ask questions... I think you will figure out this is not really as big of a change as it 'feels'. Be glad that Jeff is looking for input.
At least until he gets sick of changing his flameproof suit!
I want to make a point that will clarify a lot of the debate and questions, and "thoughts" in the last page or so.
There was a lot of questions and thoughts about "vendors" and "profit". Look again at the first 4 sets of rules (the ones specifically about selling). Vendor doesn't appear a single time and profit only appears once.
This is NOT about who is a vendor and who isn't. There is still a ton of options and choice here. I'll use Alice for example (just because I think its a good one to show this).
Alice has a supply of corian that she sells at a very reasonable price. Focusing on $5 more for selling a box of corian make its seem unreasonable. However, an occasional ad where she lists that she has 10 boxes available in the $5 section puts the overhead at only 50 cents a box. I've purchased from her. I would easily have paid $1 more for the box and it would have still been an incredible deal (for everyone except my mailman!). Is she a vendor (dunno, don't care, doesn't matter!). Is it a deal breaker - heck no. Is what she is selling still a better deal than ANYWHERE I can find - YES.
I really suggest that if you have thoughts for improvement - suggest them... Ask questions... I think you will figure out this is not really as big of a change as it 'feels'. Be glad that Jeff is looking for input.
At least until he gets sick of changing his flameproof suit!
Chatham PenWorks
Member
A membership fee will raise more money, but reading Jeff's comments, that's not the primary reason for the new fee schedule. One would be eliminating the clutter in the classifieds. Any blanket fee would have no effect on this. Another primary reason is so that those that are making a living on the IAP can help foot the bill for running it. A blanket membership fee would spread that over everyone. A blanket classified fee would have the small timers paying as much as the big boys.
For all the little guys complaining about the fees knocking them out of the game, it's called consolidation. Instead of listing one lot at a time, wait until you have a few.
The new rules seem very well thought out, and with a few adjustments to listing style, everyone that sells now should be able to with the new rules. The big problem I'm seeing is that so many are just not willing to make the adjustments. The rules aren't perfect, but how about trying to see how we can work with them, before trashing them?
Thank you Dean,
I can live with that! If I have a lot of boxes of the same thing I would be more that happy to pay the $5.00. No problem. If this is accurate it does clear things up.
Alice
I can live with that! If I have a lot of boxes of the same thing I would be more that happy to pay the $5.00. No problem. If this is accurate it does clear things up.
Alice
Guys and gals,
I want to make a point that will clarify a lot of the debate and questions, and "thoughts" in the last page or so.
There was a lot of questions and thoughts about "vendors" and "profit". Look again at the first 4 sets of rules (the ones specifically about selling). Vendor doesn't appear a single time and profit only appears once.
This is NOT about who is a vendor and who isn't. There is still a ton of options and choice here. I'll use Alice for example (just because I think its a good one to show this).
Alice has a supply of corian that she sells at a very reasonable price. Focusing on $5 more for selling a box of corian make its seem unreasonable. However, an occasional ad where she lists that she has 10 boxes available in the $5 section puts the overhead at only 50 cents a box. I've purchased from her. I would easily have paid $1 more for the box and it would have still been an incredible deal (for everyone except my mailman!). Is she a vendor (dunno, don't care, doesn't matter!). Is it a deal breaker - heck no. Is what she is selling still a better deal than ANYWHERE I can find - YES.
I really suggest that if you have thoughts for improvement - suggest them... Ask questions... I think you will figure out this is not really as big of a change as it 'feels'. Be glad that Jeff is looking for input.
At least until he gets sick of changing his flameproof suit!
You need to use Classifieds, or Premium Classifieds if you want people to make posts choosing specific items.
Many of your previous ads have been for full boxes, so I think the regular Classifieds ($5) would be fine. You make the post, people PM you with a request.
The difference between Steals & Deals and the two classifieds forums has nothing to do with WHO you are (i.e. what business type, if any, you are), but rather HOW you sell. If you sell the same stuff repeatedly, you need to use one of the classifieds forums, whether you are an organized business with employees or an individual selling stuff you cast in your basement.
larryc
Member
19 pages and counting!
If it wasn't for this forum I'd be a lot richer (in money) and a lot poorer in knowledge. Anything that would detract from the fine vendors (anyone that sells) and the great information about both those vendors and about pen turning turns me off.
I would vote for a membership fee!
If it wasn't for this forum I'd be a lot richer (in money) and a lot poorer in knowledge. Anything that would detract from the fine vendors (anyone that sells) and the great information about both those vendors and about pen turning turns me off.
I would vote for a membership fee!
chrisk
Member
With different arguments, other colleagues (rherrell, elody21, monolith...) have pointed on this above: with the new system the actual differentiation between individual and business classifieds is totally blurred if not disappearing. With the new system (the reasons for a change are certainly understandable) the big vendors are indirectly favored. My understanding is that this (unintended) result is against the philosophy of this forum and first of all of his owner.
Just a thougth.
That said, I wish to thank all the behind the scenes team who makes all this happen. With this precise discussion going on, they once again prove their openmindedness. Jeff could also say: that's it guys, here are my rules. Instead we all benefit of this exchange.
Apologies for my poor English.
Christos, from the sunny Corinth, Greece.
Just a thougth.
That said, I wish to thank all the behind the scenes team who makes all this happen. With this precise discussion going on, they once again prove their openmindedness. Jeff could also say: that's it guys, here are my rules. Instead we all benefit of this exchange.
Apologies for my poor English.
Christos, from the sunny Corinth, Greece.
Phunky_2003
Member
I don't sell often. I think I've had 2 classified ads since I've been here. I planned on running one starting tomorrow, which I think I am going to put on hold until the new ads start. Just to get a feeling of it.
My thought on the whole thing is this. I am planning on starting a website selling blanks and such. I've done a lot of research, running a business is a lot more than making and selling blanks...anyway on to my thought.
I don't have any clue on how others run their business nor is it any of my business. I will have a set amount for advertising, if I use that running ads here, then I will lose advertising elsewhere.
What effect does this play with the bash? I participated in the bash last year, from memory there was quite a few prize donations from those that sell here. If they are spending 260.00 a year (10.00 x 26) for one ad or 520.00 (10.00 x 26x2) for 2 ads. That's a lot of money for them to recoup. Will they still support the bash?
I personally am fine with the changes as far as myself selling. My concerns will be with the vendors who stop or raise prices to cover added expenses. I am a hobbyist on a fixed income and purchase most of what I use through IAP. But if prices are raised I as a hobbyist will have to look elsewhere or be making less pens.
My thought on the whole thing is this. I am planning on starting a website selling blanks and such. I've done a lot of research, running a business is a lot more than making and selling blanks...anyway on to my thought.
I don't have any clue on how others run their business nor is it any of my business. I will have a set amount for advertising, if I use that running ads here, then I will lose advertising elsewhere.
What effect does this play with the bash? I participated in the bash last year, from memory there was quite a few prize donations from those that sell here. If they are spending 260.00 a year (10.00 x 26) for one ad or 520.00 (10.00 x 26x2) for 2 ads. That's a lot of money for them to recoup. Will they still support the bash?
I personally am fine with the changes as far as myself selling. My concerns will be with the vendors who stop or raise prices to cover added expenses. I am a hobbyist on a fixed income and purchase most of what I use through IAP. But if prices are raised I as a hobbyist will have to look elsewhere or be making less pens.
Chatham PenWorks
Member
Take a look at the listings of those you think would really need to use that model listing, and see how much they would be making from those listings. The fee is a small percentage.
I'm really surprised at the number of vendors advocating for paid membership. Doesn't that potentially cut down the number of people seeing your ads? I guarantee that for every one person posting here that they'd support a membership fee, there are 10 who would not. Let's say your sales dropped by 20%. Is that more attractive than a classifieds fee?
I'm not considering a membership fee, but I am curious about the logic...
I'm not considering a membership fee, but I am curious about the logic...
louie
Member
As mostly a buyer, I have a suggestion about not letting sellers edit posts to mark what is already sold. -- Why can't the seller post the first post two times. The first post would not allowed to be edited, so everyone knows what the original ad looked like. The 2nd post of the thread would be editable by the seller. Seems simple to implement.
Lou
Lou
There is no chance for paid membership. That's just not my personal philosophy. If a paid site would be better, one will spring up.
Folks, you need to understand that we are not instituting paid classifieds because we NEED the money to keep operating. We are net positive by a few hundred dollars a year, and we have money in the bank. If we needed the money to survive, paid memberships might be on the table.
We WANT the extra revenue to (1) help ensure our long-term financial health, (2) do cool things (strengthen our IT infrastructure, run bigger and better contests, support local chapters, institute new programs for generating content, and lots of other things - suggestions always welcome! :biggrin
In my mind, it is perfectly reasonable to ask those who are making a profit by selling here to share some of that with the site. It is unreasonable to expect to make a profit for no cost. (To those of you who argue that you DO have a cost because you've donated to the site -- we have appreciated your support, but if you don't with to donate because you're paying for ads, that's perfectly fine!)
Now, I understand that HOW you make a profit could be at issue. Some of you have made extremely inefficient use of the classifieds. This change might require you to change a bit the way you do business. Maybe you need to post more items at once to reduce the impact on your costs. We are all comfortable with the status quo after 7 years of the way things have been. It's conceivable that some extra effort will be required on your part to reduce the impact of this on your customers and your bottom line.
I've received a few PMs (and there are postings above) which say "this will put me out of business". It's completely unreasonable to build a business depending on free advertising. I apologize, but there is no way to put this delicately; if you cannot absorb a few dollars to advertise your product for sale, you have an unsustainable business plan.
If, after thinking about how you could operate successfully in the new scheme of things, you really believe that these changes or the fees will put you out of business, please PM me with some specifics. That is absolutely not the intent, and if that's a widespread situation then indeed this is the wrong approach.
Mine would drop to zero
The only thing that bothers me is that I occasionally give away or sell at costs items for the various Pens for Troops programs supported by quite a few members. I'm not sure I like the idea of paying for the privilege of giving something away or selling it at a loss. But, I can probably find a way to make this work out.
Well I wouldn't pay to be a member - not that I don't enjoy the site (even with my occasional disagreements with the mods) but a general principal. I don't pay dues or membership fees anywhere that does not have some direct benefit that I require.
The only thing that bothers me is that I occasionally give away or sell at costs items for the various Pens for Troops programs supported by quite a few members. I'm not sure I like the idea of paying for the privilege of giving something away or selling it at a loss. But, I can probably find a way to make this work out.
Phunky_2003
Member
I believe you could end up posting those in the steals and deals or the free classifieds. Even though you are a vendor, on that particular ad your not making a profit.
But I've been wrong before....just ask my wife.
It would be a good question maybe one of the mods can clarify.
The Trades & Giveaways rules are posted. You CAN give things away for charitable purposes.
If you want to sell something at cost to benefit a charitable cause, PM me and I'll make that happen for you at no cost. I'll add something to the next revision of the rules to cover that.
How's that for problem solving? :biggrin:
soligen
Member
I'm rather surprized at the subscription support too. Getting new people is the key to any strong organization or association. Existing members are willing to pay because they know the value, but new members will not - for them it represents risk - money spent for unknown gain. So I would conclude that membership fees would substantially limit new members.
A lot of advertizing is to get NEW customers. People who have been turning for a while tend to keep buying from the same people - they know who sells what, and if there isnt a sale going on and they want something, its easy to send a PM to inquire. For example, if I decided I needed a box of corian, I'm send Alice a PM if she didn't have a sale running. I've been here long enough to know she sells it.
If Jeff wants a membership fee, I'd pay it without a thought, but I have "vote" against having a fee becasue of the discouragement of new members - I believe it would cause a gradual decline in the IAP
A lot of advertizing is to get NEW customers. People who have been turning for a while tend to keep buying from the same people - they know who sells what, and if there isnt a sale going on and they want something, its easy to send a PM to inquire. For example, if I decided I needed a box of corian, I'm send Alice a PM if she didn't have a sale running. I've been here long enough to know she sells it.
If Jeff wants a membership fee, I'd pay it without a thought, but I have "vote" against having a fee becasue of the discouragement of new members - I believe it would cause a gradual decline in the IAP
I kind of think that another rule would not be well-received :biggrin:
The OP can be edited for 48 hours. We already have rules that say you can't substantially change a post except for updating quantities remaining. The ad should look pretty much identical through the life of the ad.
Suits me....
That's good - I really do like to help the guys who turn for the Troops and other charaties when I can and this will be of help when I can't afford complete gifts.
witz1976
Member
There is no chance for paid membership. That's just not my personal philosophy. If a paid site would be better, one will spring up.
Folks, you need to understand that we are not instituting paid classifieds because we NEED the money to keep operating. We are net positive by a few hundred dollars a year, and we have money in the bank. If we needed the money to survive, paid memberships might be on the table.
We WANT the extra revenue to (1) help ensure our long-term financial health, (2) do cool things (strengthen our IT infrastructure, run bigger and better contests, support local chapters, institute new programs for generating content, and lots of other things - suggestions always welcome! :biggrin
In my mind, it is perfectly reasonable to ask those who are making a profit by selling here to share some of that with the site. It is unreasonable to expect to make a profit for no cost. (To those of you who argue that you DO have a cost because you've donated to the site -- we have appreciated your support, but if you don't with to donate because you're paying for ads, that's perfectly fine!)
Now, I understand that HOW you make a profit could be at issue. Some of you have made extremely inefficient use of the classifieds. This change might require you to change a bit the way you do business. Maybe you need to post more items at once to reduce the impact on your costs. We are all comfortable with the status quo after 7 years of the way things have been. It's conceivable that some extra effort will be required on your part to reduce the impact of this on your customers and your bottom line.
I've received a few PMs (and there are postings above) which say "this will put me out of business". It's completely unreasonable to build a business depending on free advertising. I apologize, but there is no way to put this delicately; if you cannot absorb a few dollars to advertise your product for sale, you have an unsustainable business plan.
If, after thinking about how you could operate successfully in the new scheme of things, you really believe that these changes or the fees will put you out of business, please PM me with some specifics. That is absolutely not the intent, and if that's a widespread situation then indeed this is the wrong approach.
Well said Jeff, although I would like to add that advertising should be part of your pricing. If you are selling items for a profit and do not take into consideration of ALL of your operating costs (this includes advertising) then guess what, you will go out of business.
For the people who only sell a few items at a time I am typically included in this bunch) wait till you have more than 3 or 4 items to list, or use the free classified section to dump it and make back what you paid for it.
I clearly see ways that people can still be generous to each other in terms of deals, while at the same time reducing the clutter of multiple posts.
Respectfully submitted,
babyblues
Member
I think a separate IAP Marketplace is a great idea. These changes are a good step towards that.
glycerine
Member
Yeah, it seems the point of this is to have those "profiteers" :wink: pay for the service of being allowed to sell through the site. A paid membership would make EVERYONE pay.
And I thought alot of this sprung up because some are annoyed with the blatant advertising strung all throughout the forums. If a paid membership were instituted and nothing else changed, then members would have to then PAY to still see those annoying advertisements...
And I thought alot of this sprung up because some are annoyed with the blatant advertising strung all throughout the forums. If a paid membership were instituted and nothing else changed, then members would have to then PAY to still see those annoying advertisements...
Paid Membership
OK - maybe I am just dumb - my IQ ain't what it was a few years ago - probably down to about 140 or so now - but I fail to see or understand exactly what problem Jeff would be trying to solve if he instituted the paid memberships some have suggested. Even given all of the bantering back and forth from those in favor and those opposed - I still don't understand.
It also seems that since Jeff has said rather clearly that he is not going to institute them, the whole issue seems a bit moot.
OK - maybe I am just dumb - my IQ ain't what it was a few years ago - probably down to about 140 or so now - but I fail to see or understand exactly what problem Jeff would be trying to solve if he instituted the paid memberships some have suggested. Even given all of the bantering back and forth from those in favor and those opposed - I still don't understand.
It also seems that since Jeff has said rather clearly that he is not going to institute them, the whole issue seems a bit moot.
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Monty
Group Buy Coordinator
It's my understanding you can have 1 or 100 items if the same thing for sale in the regular classifieds for $5. The limiting factor is a maximum of 5 photos and only one ad per week, and one followup post per week by you.
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