What is political??

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I have an idea, just stop! We are all thinking of ways to fix a problem that shouldnt exist. Everyone knows that you cant talk politics with family or friends because it could always start problems. I consider this forum a second home and many of the members as my friends. That being said, I would never want to hurt or offend any of my friends.

We have some members who are minors and really do not need to be reading this stuff that aggravates us. They are kids here to learn and share a common interest.

Nothing should be changed as we all signed up as members knowing the rules, including the unwritten ones.

I am very happy to be a member of this forum and proud to be able to call so many members my friends.

So instead of debating it, just dont do it. Lets keep the peace.


I still think a humor section should be added with a notice stating the contents may be offensive to some and to enter at your own risk.



By the way, anyone know where that missile that launched this morning went? Or even more important, where it came from? LOL Just thought id thrw that out there..
 
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Boy what is going on here. Things seem they were cursing along fairly good. I guessed I missed a lot leave the computer for a couple hours and come back to this. We got to back to pens sharing ideas making pens and blanks.

And as far as the casual conversation forum I never really visited it much in the past. I've always thought of it as a place for off topic bar room talk sort of speak.
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My Father always told me, "If you want to get ahead in life, DO NOT talk about Religion, Politics or Sex."
That being stated, We have not so much evolved but gotten older.
Back in the 70's we has Sit-Com show like All in the Family, MASH, Chico and the Man, The Jeffersons, Alice, Sanford and Son,Dukes of Hazard, etc. These shows would never be made today because of the content.
I am a comedian, even I have to be wary of what I say on stage. the Comic Michael Richards a few years ago said some things on stage that got him in a large vat of hot water. I am not equating what gets stated in the forums being even similar to racial slurs said by a comedian. However people have not a thin skin, they just are sick of the same crap. and no one wants to fix it.
Anyhow,
"Member Conduct: You may not use any part of the Service to transmit material that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortuous, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable, or which infringes upon the intellectual property, contractual, or fiduciary rights of others."
What is Political? I think with points like Defamatory, Hateful, would prohibit certain points. However political statement like "Communism is the best form of government." which is a Positive in the sense that nothing bad per say is being said... yet, this possibly would lead to many points found in Member Conduct in responses to that.
It is like the old movie I had to watch in Government class 25 years ago. Anyhow I remember this person in the film spewing how Adolf Hitler was the greatest leader in the world on a street corner and how that lead to people kicking this guys arse... The lesson was, Yes you have a freedom to speak your mind as long as you don't cause a riot or yell Fire in a movie theater.
Now one exception to what ever does come about, is conversation on Sales Tax. we have sales and dealing with Taxes. is part of the business.

Side Note, I am glad we have such of an outstanding moderators here. On another woodworking forum there is a person that has been posting pornographic pictures. Doesn't matter why, but their mods don't seem to delete them...
 
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Well, after reading quite a few comments here, this thread is quite political:)
Although I don't post too many comments here, I think most people are pretty friendly here. I was a little concerned about the Cowboys thread but, it has been pretty cordial. And I am a Cowboys fan.
I think you are doing a fine job. My 2 cents is let things go until it becomes (for lack of a better word) violent. Then just delete the thread. People will get the message.
Some people just can't seperate the difference between real life and online life.
Some just take things too seriously, should we punish everyone for one or a few people that can't take a joke. You guys are the boss, we live under your rules, I accept that those rules may change.
And let's not forget, nobody is forcing anyone to read a post, post a thread or even comment on a thread.
 
I have been on IAP for a couple of months now and have had a few posts deleted, moved and closed. When I asked why I was given an acceptible answer. Now I want to express my opinion on this topic, if you want to talk about politics POST IT ON FOX 5 for crying out load. This forum is for pen makers to discuss making pens, new pen making concepts and other fine handmade items.
Nuff said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
MesquiteMan said:
what forums should or should not be here, whether or not politics should be allowed on IAP, whether or not we are doing a good job moderating, etc. I really just wanted opinions on what you think constitutes political discussion.
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I guess when it comes down to it, while I appreciate the reasoning behind forums like "Casual Conversation", I am really here to get, and pass along information about pen turning. If forums were limited to only pens, pen making related topics, and turning in general, it would be fine with me.

You guys are doing a good job of moderating. It is a difficult position, with very little reward.

Here is my take on political discussions... It doesn't even have to be a disucission for it to be over the line in my mind. A single post with any type of political statement is enough to make me avoid this site for a day or two... And I don't care what side its from.... Looney left, or the wacko right. While I can appreciate the merits of a debate about sales tax of internet sales, I can guarantee you there will be partisan bickering involved... "They wanna do _____ because they are _____", "Well THEY want to _____ because of _____ _____ _____!" I can hear it all now.... And can see the mods brains melting and running out of their ears as they try to quell it all before too many people fly off the handle and leave for good, and those who have read the mess slowly back away from the site as if they've seen a car wreck. Political talk is toxic to a site and will slowly kill it, unless the site is political in nature to start with. Here is the bottom line for me on politics and this site: If I wanted to read anyone else's political writings, or discuss my own, I'd go to one of about ten billion other sites that foster a wedge in between people and do it there... Not here.

Defining a political discussion? It's kind of like defining art. You know it when you see it. & One person's art is another person's trash. The mods seem to be well capable of doing their job, but when the goal post is variable, its frustrating to try and please everyone and be consistent.
 
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Seems to me this IAP site is for discussions about the making of pens and associated topics directly related. In my opinion, this is not a political forum. Political ideas and philosophies should not in any way be a part of this site. We're here to make pens, learn how to make them better, learn of materials available, to share ideas--we're not here to try to influence each other as to how to vote in the next election---
 
I wasn't going to join in on this but the fingers started hitting the keyboard.:smile:

First I think for some reason there is a movement afoot here on this site and not sure what has brought it on. I don't understand why all of a sudden we need all these rules and regulations. The more you add the more people you tee off. First advertising, then apoligies galore, then talk of behavior problems and people leaving, then cursing and disguising it and now this. There are many topics that can have huge deabates such as do you believe in Unions, do you belive in the death penalty, and so on. My point is you are asking questions that there are no right or wrong answers because we all have our opinions. In this particular case it states in the bylaws of the forum, no politics or religion topics............... Now we have moderators and when chosen there were a unanimous outcry of support and I did not see one negative word spoken. Let them make the desicions as to weather a topic needs to be closed or tidyied up.

I think Curtis and the other moderators and even Jeff are trying too hard to make this a sterile place. You have the tools at hand as moderators to do what is necessary. It is a thankless job but you volunteered and for this we are greatful. You have your moderator chats when a topic gets touchy and now there are more than one which is good you can get more thoughts and come to a conclusion as to what should be done. Whatever the outcome is we all need to accept the results. Sure we can agree or disagree and if these actions are too much for you then you have the choice to leave. I am sure there is no one that wants this to happen but sometimes our feelings are that deep. To this we all should honor and respect their decision. Will the site move on, yes it will. Will there be a loss yes there will.


As far as the casual conversation forum, leave it alone. It does serve a valuable part here. We are a family as it is often stated. People come to that forum sharing with us their losses and heartships and also their triumphs and this is needed to get out to the family members to make us feel inspired one way or other.

My thoughts are to carry on and do the best job possible. You will never please everyone every time. Impossible. I do think though when a topic is deleted or moved that a message is left behind explaining why. This is a soft delete or message.

Now this is just my thoughts and if people do not agree then I accept that. Now I have to get the fingers to get away from the keyboard.:smile:
 
Geezz Curtis, you should have known that you where going to get the "works" by opening such a thread...!:eek::wink:

As much as I agree with many of the things said here, I disagree with half of them, and that is just the way it is. Max have mention that things have been done differently here recently, and in part he is right the problem is, are those new ways being positive or a negative for the "back bone" of IAP...??? my opinion, they have been negative...!

Some may say that, these days things are done differently and you "have" to go with it...! really...??? don't think so...! Some people get confused between freedom and pure stupidity, allowing people to get away with what they want, is certainly the quickest way to get pandemonium...!

I've seen too many forums being destroyed by having or trying to please everyone, creating or opening "Topics" for every consivable subject there is or people wants, big mistake...!
One of the things that I always like about IAP was the fact that, its "back bone" was not political, and in fact based upon some solid and fair foundations. Those foundations are the rules that apply within and the genuine focus on what matters about the world of penturning and its evolution in our times.

Sure, lets have topics covering all the new techniques and materials available to us today, the news "toys" and some "tricks of the trade" but, anything to do with politics, religion, race and or any subject that is infiltrated/introduce by someone for further disturbance or provoke argumentation, SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED, period...! there are many other places where they, "who ever" can stir problems.

The true of the fact is that, while some keep reminding everyone that we are all adults and pretty civilized, this is not true tough...! There are many "kids" among the "adults", and many "adults" among the "kids", and this is not a problem that is affecting IAP only but in fact, most places where people don't have to put their face to what they do or say....!

It is a kindly mistake to believe everyone know how to utilise the freedoms that we are able to enjoy in our days, some take it for grant others make a really "mock-up" of it, taking everyone around with them...!

So, how to void this...??? Limit the problem possibilities, by keeping true to what IAP is about, and ABSOLUTELY no other topics that have nothing to do with penturning (general wood-turning would be OK...!). Make those rules clear and to the point in this regards, the option of not joining is always there...!

Take absolutely no time or effort to be a "SAINT", allow no exceptions to silliness or stupidity and maintain a firm hand of your moderation criteria.

Is this tough, sure is, after all given too much freedom is not working, huh...???

Has been always my view that quality, is a lot more preferable than quantity, sometimes you just need to be cruel to be kind...!

NOTE: This post is in direct response to Curtis question, and represents MY OPINION on the subject, and PLEASE, I'm not interested in know who agrees or not, that is irrelevant...!:wink:

Cheers
George
 
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John,
Couldnt have said it better myself about the casual conversation forum. We consider this a second family and to be honest I feel really good when im able to help out a fellow member, pray if a member needs support, praise a positive achievement, share my experiences and just a friendly chat with some good friends.

I have helped many members out with getting started, or just working with them for my services. I purchased an item from a member for $250.00 and he said not to kill myself, just pay him when I get it extra. This was months ago and my finances arent too great at the moment. I contact him every once in a while to let him know I didnt forget and he says hes not worried about it and to just pay him when I have it extra. I still havent even used the items.
Friends like the ones I made on this forum do not come into our lives too often. In fact, many people we never experience it.
I said all of that to lead up to this, There are a ton of different forums and message boards out there and they all have arguments, fights, offensive content and lack of interest in making friends on the forums, just acquaintances. I am willing to bet money that at least half of the members on this forum would offer me a place to stay if I was passing though their area.

All of the above mentioned is why I love this board so much and I personally think the moderators are doing a great job. I had a post moved the other day, it happens.

So I am going to close this by not complaining or getting mad, I am just going to say thank you to Jeff, Curtis, Dean and the other moderators who work hard (for no pay) to keep this board going..
 
I am wondering about a couple of things:

#1 outside of John's recent comment, he is the only person outside the USA who had an opinion on this. I am curious about the rest of out international community.

#2 I truly hope the people who were offended and or complained about these topics are contributing to this topic. If they aren't but they continue to complain, they should get ignored.

#3 and this is really for the mods, of the people who are complaining do they actually contribute anything productive to the Penturning community or do they make a few comments and then complain.

As for the two recent posts that were locked. They were a freaking joke. While they had a political theme in them, their intent were made for fun. People want to remove the casual conversation folder, I say add a Joke folder. That way people will realize IT IS A FREAKING JOKE!! Holy smokes...this is such a sad thread.

I am done.
 
Reb said:
Funny here's 9 pages of nothing about pens. I can't find 2 pages on how to make a kitless pen. :) What am I misssing here?
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What this is telling you is that everyones life is about more than making pens. It is about lives that are influenced by politics and religion. I would not be here often if it were just about pens. I like the people here, and I dont give a hoot about who they voted for or who they prey to. They may be anti-american or a religious terrorist. I dont like it, but as long as they dont profess it here, let 'em in. We have other ways to take care of them. If they do, delete the thread. If someone doesnt like a discussion, they should switch forums. I dont know who we lost because of this, but I havent missed them or I would know who it was.
No one can offend me unless I allow them to and that will never happen!
I think the moderators are doing a good job, I like the flexibility allowed here as well as a quick response to pulling a post or thread if it incites attacks.
Good job guys!
 
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I just wonder in this community where it seems some are so thin skinned that jokes offend...yet people have no problem asking for prayers but no one closes those threads, religion is religion period. I would hate to see the good points end such as requesting prayer but yet a cartoon about prayer in school is deleted due to religious content. Put jokes and prayer request in separate forums that way if these topics offend you can stay out. Let people vent, if you are thin skinned stay out if you can take a shot on your belief once and awhile in the name of humor then come on in. I think we just have too many people with reasons to complain. Remember you do not have to read every post in every forum. Some of us will agree to disagree the others will try to get distasteful things deleted.
 
Hi folks....I would think by now that the moderators and Jeff have enough input on how to admend their policy, make a new one or do nothing. Its time to close this thread and get back to pen making. These constant threads on these topics are starting to wear a person down. I think I will not open the casual conversation threads for a while. Thanks Darrell Eisner
 
OK, I'll throw my 2 cents in.

I think that a lot of these issues could indeed be solved by removing the Casual Conversation forum.

There's an upside and a downside to this. Removing the forum removes the conversations that cause these issues and makes the pure focus of the site to be Pen Turning and just Pen Turning.

However, the Casual Conversation forum also is where we can all get to know people on a personal level. The Casual Conversation forum is where we can develop friendships through sharing experiences (or conversely develop enemies).

I dunno, I'd lean towards killing that forum more than anything. I do think the tone has changed for the foum in the last 3 years.
 
I offer the following response to the original post. I've only addressed points two and three, but I believe I cover the first and fourth points as well. Additionally I point out that the entire body of a post, including the signature line, appears with each polsting. I feel that political and religious sentiments should be barred from this the signature lines as well as within the posts.

Here are my views on the issue, thanks for the opportunity to comment.


Does it need to be partisan to be considered political?
No. Partisan sentiments are at the core of political discussions, but the full range of political connotation goes far beyond a partisan position. Ridiculing, bashing or even simply pointing out legitimate internal conflicts within our governmental infrastructure is a political discussion. Infrastructure includes local, state and federal governmental officials and agencies, law enforcement at all levels, military, and especially political parties.
Example: If someone asks about collecting sales tax and I respond that there are stupid tax laws in (un-named state), then I'm turning a legitimate question into a political discussion. I could say that the tax laws in that state are tricky to negotiate and that the enforcement is aggressive, then it would not be a political statement. The harsh value judgment "stupid" takes it out of being informative and makes it political.

Are jokes and comments about any country's government considered political discussion even if they are not partisan?
Usually they are, especially when the brunt of the joke is intended to point out a political position. If the content of the joke is more historical than political (did you hear the joke about George Washington's horse?) then it is probably not making a political point, The politics can be implied as well, if I were to post a picture of someone at a political rally who was holding a sign that made it evident he really didn't have a clue, that would be political. Humor comes in many forms from biting sarcasm to rolling on the floor laughing; all forms can be political. If a political joke or commentary is outrageously funny or absolutely true, it is still political.
 
I know sports.
In baseball, one of the best hitters that ever lived hit over 700 home runs, yet this same player struck out THOUSANDS of times.

A pitcher that wins 20 games in a season (over a 160 games are played in season) is considered an "ACE". Only one pitcher in every 500 pitchers ever pitches a perfect game.

The best batters ever retired with a lifetime average of well below 50 percent....again a player with a 35 percent average is a legend.

Even with "replay review" in football, 20 percent of the calls are still wrong.

In professional sports, only the best of the best even get a chance to compete.

In an association that allows veterans, rookies and in fact, anyone who owns a computer to post, are we not "overreaching" to expect every post, every member and all moderators to be perfect on every occasion?

IMHO, we all just need to be more tolerant of our members. If someone offends you, don't read their posts. I dread the thought of a forum that promotes the freelflow and exchange of ideas becoming a nanny state.
 
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I disagree, John - I think there are a lot of good answers in here amid the rubble! :smile:

You are right, however - it's time to get this conversation back on track. I thank everyone who's chiming in to help us figure out how to define this tricky word, and how to moderate better. We lost members when we didn't delete political threads, and we've lost members for deleting political threads. This is why Curtis has posted this discussion to gauge how to best please the forum membership.

The rules say absolutely no politics - there is no 'except for...' or 'funny or cheeky politics allowed' in the rules...but if we're expected to be lenient when jokes arise, you're asking for a lot of interpretation.

The clearer the rules are, the better - which is why I like the 'no politics' rule. If we do not allow any politics on the site, then it's an easy one to moderate. The issue comes when people start posting borderline politics - or if we allow political comedy - then the issue of the 'slippery slope' develops.

This is where the question arises - what defines politics. If we have a clearer understanding of what 'political' entails to the masses, then we have a better idea about how to moderate political threads.

To me, politics is defined as anything relating to the government, the ideas or actions of government, or the actions or ideas of political parties or individuals in politics. I think that if one is criticizing the government or government programs, then one is speaking politically.

Keep in mind that I'm not American, and thus have no stake or say in American politics - I view partisan political discussions from an outsider's view.

Andrew
assistant moderator
 
Here is a potential solution to the politics issue, which some other forums have adopted.

create a Sub-forum "Political Playground," which can go largely unmoderated.

If the topic of a Casual Conversation thread heads towards politics, move it to the PP forum. The thread is not deleted, so no one gets offended about that. :tongue:

You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot please all of the people all of the time.
 
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Gary Max said:
Some folks just got tired of the new way things are being done here.
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Then Promote your web site , you can get a professional company to do a SEO and sign up as a Pay Per Click like all the other big shots.
Remember this is business for a lot of us, not just the ones with plenty of wood.
 
turbowagon said:
Here is a potential solution to the politics issue, which some other forums have adopted.

create a Sub-forum "Political Playground," which can go largely unmoderated.

If the topic of a Casual Conversation thread heads towards politics, move it to the PP forum. The thread is not deleted, so no one gets offended about that. :tongue:

You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot please all of the people all of the time.
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I like this suggestion. I'm not going to define what is political...most of us really know when we're crossing that line. I'm one for letting people express their opinions...at the proper time and place. If people want to talk politics let them have at it in the "Political Playground" sub-forum. Since I don't have to visit that forum to look for pen relate stuff, I'm a happy camper.
 
The low level of discourse on this thread is a good example of why I've posted a grand total of twice in more than six months. Because of the eagerness of many members to display incivility, I support a bright line enforcement of the existing policy of no political or religious discussions, period. The moderators are more than capable of making the judgment call as to which threads or posts violate the policy. Anything short of a bright line rule simply enables the drama queens who wish to take every opportunity to rant and berate other members.
 
Politics is like pornography. Difficult to explain sometimes, but you know it when you see it. Trying to get a better definition is admirable, but IMO unlikely.
 
BRobbins629 said:
Politics is like pornography. Difficult to explain sometimes, but you know it when you see it. Trying to get a better definition is admirable, but IMO unlikely.
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Yeah, but the latter of the two is much more fun! :biggrin: (J/K- as we all know, politics is much dirtier and more seedy than the other)

Seriously though, it's not something easily defined.

For instance, I saw a post saying happy birthday to the USMC. Is that political? The Marines are a part of our military, which is a part of the government... Support for our military and what they do can sometimes be partisan...

I don't think it's political, per say, but you never know how it'll be interpreted.
 
Timbo said:
turbowagon said:
Here is a potential solution to the politics issue, which some other forums have adopted.

create a Sub-forum "Political Playground," which can go largely unmoderated.

If the topic of a Casual Conversation thread heads towards politics, move it to the PP forum. The thread is not deleted, so no one gets offended about that. :tongue:

You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot please all of the people all of the time.
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I like this suggestion. I'm not going to define what is political...most of us really know when we're crossing that line. I'm one for letting people express their opinions...at the proper time and place. If people want to talk politics let them have at it in the "Political Playground" sub-forum. Since I don't have to visit that forum to look for pen relate stuff, I'm a happy camper.
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Why would you want to have another forum on a site that has no relevance to pen making. You are opening up even more of a hole for people to fall in and out of. Just because people should realize you maybe entering into a forum that has contraversy doesn't mean that people won't take it to heart and will carry over into other areas of the site. To me I vote (oh that is politics) no to the political forum.

Andrew set aside the Canadian aspect because if there were more Canadians here I am sure that would have its own political debates too. Being international every government has its problems and the people complain. To me I see not one answer in here that says what politics is difintely. We all have our thoughts and if that is what you were after then you got them. You said it also. The rules say no politics and no religion. Case close and yes it is that simple. Stop trying to make it something it is not. We will have to all live by your and other moderators interpretation of what politics is. Good luck with that.


PS I noticed I need spell check badly.:smile: Maybe we can work on that????
 
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I don't come to this forum to discuss politics, I come here to discuss and learn about woodworking in general and pen making in particular. If I want to discuss politics I go to a different forum where the rules regarding political discussion encourage vigorous discussion without profanity. Profanity will get you banned.

That said, this forum has an off topic forum that should allow people to discuss politics and religion because they are such important parts of our lives. Profanity should be forbidden resulting in posts being deleted. When a thread becomes overly heated with much flaming of other members taking place the thread should be deleted.

We can discuss these things as long as we keep it civil and out of the wood working threads.

So what is political discussion? Discussions of candidates for office or ballet initiatives or amendments. Get out the vote threads will inevitably turn partisan and that should be allowable as long as it remains civil.

Finally, this forum belongs to the owner. He and the moderators he appoints are the final arbiters of what is acceptable and what is not. If in their opinion a post or thread crosses a line then they should take whatever action they deem appropriate. It is a tough situation for them as any action they take will always result in somebody getting angry. I think the mods have done a fairly good job of trying to be fair and let some discussion run. But their comes a time when they are forced to take a stand and make decision. Those decisions will sometimes require a new interpretation of an existing rule. That is their job and once they make their decision, it is final and should be respected by the members.

Finally, each of us knows what our pet peeves are and what sets us off. If you see a topic come up that really gets you worked up then it is probably best to stay away from that thread. The best way to avoid running afoul of the rules is to stay away from the situations that are likely to spur you into making posts that will get you in trouble with the mods or other members.
 
Folks, the solution is real simple..........

At the top of every page of this forum it says "International Association of Penturners."

If it isn't related to pen making, don't post it. This forum is about pens and how to make them. Just pens. The one exception I would make would be to keep the "Other Things We Make" forum, as at least it's related to turning. Simple projects like seam rippers and pepper mills are good learning aids for new turners.

While I might care about your family members that need prayers, or your pets, or what you think of the Dallas Cowboys, or the latest jokes, I don't want to read about it here. I come here to learn about making pens. If I'm interested in any other subject I'll go somewhere else. I really don't care about your religion or politics, and never want to read anything about them here, including in your signature line. This is the IAP, remember? Pens and things related to making pens. It's a really simple concept.

Let me comment on one of my pet peeves: No one is "entitled" to a tutorial. Really!! The guy with the new idea isn't required to teach you how to copy his work. Pictures and instructions are NOT required within 48 hours. You might have to figure out how to do it for yourself. Even if you ask politely, he has every right to keep his techniques to himself. He's already given you the idea and proved that it can be done. Go figure it out for yourself.

I was the 20th person to join the IAP, so I've been around here a long time. I log on several times a day to read the posts, but I'm about done. The IAP has changed to a much more aggressive place.

Well, enough already. I'll go back to my corner and be quiet.

txbob
 
Curtis, Andrew, Dean, and Jeff,

Sorry. This thread really did get hijacked.

Any item that can have more than one view is something that can be deamed political.
An older person told me a good thing to remember many years ago.
"You put more than one person in a room, and politics always comes out, even if you are just talking about going to the movies"

So, if there is to be one, then the best course of action, IMNSHO, is to remove the casual conversation, and ALL the tag lines below peoples' signatures.
 
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Okay, here's my opinion, for what little it's worth. I have seen comments saying that, "If you don't like it, don't read it." I think these people are missing the point. I think it would be far more appropriate to say, "If it's not within the rules, don't post it."

IAP has a set of rules. If you post something political or religious in nature, you are breaking the rules. But worse than that, you are disrespecting Jeff, the Moderators, and the entire community, by thinking that you are above having to follow those rules.
If you want to post something, and you aren't sure if it could be considered political or religious, it probably will be. If you still want to post it, shoot a pm to a Mod and ask what they think.

As far as Curtis's questions:

  • What constitutes a political DISCUSSION? Any post containing anything political in nature.
  • Does it need to be partisan to be considered political? No
  • Are jokes and comments about any country's government considered political discussion even if they are not partisan? Yes
  • Are statements/commentary about a country's government considered political? Yes
I want to say a big THANK YOU to Jeff, and all the Moderators, for doing everything they can to keep this place sane. I know it's not an easy job.
 
  • What constitutes a political DISCUSSION? Any post political in nature.
  • Does it need to be partisan to be considered political? No
  • Are jokes and comments about any country's government considered political discussion even if they are not partisan? Yes
  • Are statements/commentary about a country's government considered political? Yes
I've read this entire thread. Wasted a good 5 - 10 minutes.

All I can say is.......... SIGH.

Going back to the hobby I enjoy.

Oh one more thing. This forum has a family atmosphere that has made it one of the best forums on the net. The friends and people I have met are truely great people. I'd offer anything I have to anybody that needed it. I've given things to people here to help with getting started to raising funds for others in need. If you remove the casual conversation forum you will lose that family atmosphere. I dont post as often as I would like, I do read most all posts. Some make me shake my head and walk away for awhile.

I dont get along with all my relatives. I am sure others dont get along with all their relatives. I dont think anyone could expect everyone to get along on a forum. I have no answers for the direction the forum has been going lately. We've lost a great deal of members for one reason or another. Even early in this thread it was stated we lost more members. I hate hearing that. Every member, it doesnt matter if they are attempting their first pen or their 2000th, is a valuable member of this community.
 
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is there a way to keep the casual conversation posts from hitting the "top ten" on the home page? I almost never read that forum, unless I get sucked into it from the home page. That way the casual conversation posts can be there for those that want/need the outlet, but that the folks that come here for PEN ADVICE aren't sidetracked.

But I also think that there should be a zero tolerance on political posts as well as anything else specifically called out in the rules. And folks who personal attack (either privately or publically) should be put on probation.

IAP is supposed to be a friendly place where people come to share ideas and ask for help. Not a place where there is so much bickering going on. I've really stepped back in my reading here, because there always seems to be someone griping about someone/something, and my small amount of computer time doesn't need to be spent sucked into the drama. but I find that the drama is like a train wreck - you don't really want to see it, but at the same time, you also can't stop watching!

The moderators really have a thankless job. But I truly appreciate that they are trying to make this a better place.

a few bad apples really do spoil the whole bunch. :mad:
 
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