Are we pen makers?

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She's classic, I have spoken to people like that in the past, I stand back and walk away, so do a lot of other people, they exude negativity....

I don't care what I call what I do, selling or giving a pen away to put a smile on some one's face is my reward... being famous is not my goal.

PenFantic maybe
 
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aggromere said:
I don't even make really good pens, but I bet I could sell more than she can!

I always tell my kids that, "you will met people smarter than you, stroner than you, wealthier than you, more educated than you, pretty than you, but you will never, ever meet anyone better than you. They have taken that to heart and in face of a lot of adversity they can stand their ground with anyone.

I have no idea what that has to do with anything, but when I started I thought it made sense. lol.
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We must have come up through the same schooling system because that is the same motto I live by. I carry that throughout all aspects of my life and in anything I do.
 
PenMan1 said:
Well, this is an easy question for me. I am a world class mistake maker and needless risk taker of the highest calibre.

Sometimes a quality writing instrument that someone will eagerly pay hard-earned money to own falls right out of the happy mistake pile!

I don't care what you call me as long as you call me with an order. Otherwise, they are taking me away from what I love to do. Stick rounder is as good a title for me as any......as long as the credit card is valid!

Respectfully submitted
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What Andy said !!

EBorraga said:
What if you cast your own blanks and turn closed end pens where you've upgraded the nib. Does this make you a penturner or penmaker?? Everyone will probably have varying opinions. As far as I'm concerned it truly doesn't matter if I'm a turner or maker of pens. You gotta start somewhere.

I wonder if they'd consider Skiprat a penturner:rolleyes:
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Sure we all make pens out of stainless scrap and pieces and chunks of stuff, no I would definitely say that Skiprat is a penmaker of a very high order.
 
This is kinda funny and exactly the INVERSE of the Pen component thinking.
I worked for a while as a luthier. I made very nice "hand made" guitars. I could have easily made my own tuning keys, reinforcement rods, frets and pick ups for the electric models. My hand made parts would look and perform better than the manufactured parts that I bought. If I had used my hand made parts, I would never have sold a single guitar.

Real musical artists want the unique sound and personal styling that comes from custom made.BUT, they want the performance from names they trust.

Gibson and Martin guitar companies make custom guitars. Both companies use Grover tuning keys for their upper models. Many musicians consider these "kit" components the best available.
 
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What.

Ankrom Exotics said:
My father is a world class custom knifemaker. He cuts out his own blades from bar stock steel. He grinds the blades. He performs his own heat treating. He even makes his own screws. He performs very aspect of construction and finishing. He has worked hard for nearly 40 years earning his reputation as one of the best.

There are companies that sell knife "kits" that include a pre-cut, pre-ground, pre-heat treated blade. They include guards that are pre-shaped, etc.... The person completing the kits needs to assemble the parts, attach and shape handle material and perform all sanding and buffing.

They need to do a lot more to complete that knife than I do to finish a pen but I still don't consider them 'knifemakers'. To me 'assembler' is a more appropriate word.

So for now and the foreseeable future I'll be content to refer to myself as a 'penturner'.
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Does that mean the the furniture I made was not hand made because I didn't cut down the tree and saw it into boards but bought the boards already sawed and planed and used factory made screws and glue in the assembly?
 
Smitty37 said:
Ankrom Exotics said:
My father is a world class custom knifemaker. He cuts out his own blades from bar stock steel. He grinds the blades. He performs his own heat treating. He even makes his own screws. He performs very aspect of construction and finishing. He has worked hard for nearly 40 years earning his reputation as one of the best.

There are companies that sell knife "kits" that include a pre-cut, pre-ground, pre-heat treated blade. They include guards that are pre-shaped, etc.... The person completing the kits needs to assemble the parts, attach and shape handle material and perform all sanding and buffing.

They need to do a lot more to complete that knife than I do to finish a pen but I still don't consider them 'knifemakers'. To me 'assembler' is a more appropriate word.

So for now and the foreseeable future I'll be content to refer to myself as a 'penturner'.
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Does that mean the the furniture I made was not hand made because I didn't cut down the tree and saw it into boards but bought the boards already sawed and planed and used factory made screws and glue in the assembly?
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Not at all, my dad doesn't forge his own steel, although there are makers that do (they're referred to as 'bladesmiths'). As a matter of fact he doesn't manufacture any of the raw materials but he does cut, grind, shape, assemble, sand and polish EVERY single piece of the finished product.

When I look into the little plastic baggie that holds a pen kit I see a disassembled pen that is missing one part. Producing that single part and assembling the pre-manufactured components does not (in my opinion) justify me referring to myself as a penmaker.
 
Penturner or penmaker? When I have someone come back to me, nearly distraught after losing a pen they have been using for many months, and I'm able to make them another one to bring the smile back to their face, I don't really care what the label is for what I do.
 
I have never been to to any of these shows so I do not understand or know what it is that THEY DO. All I know is that I have friends, relatives and people that I don't even know ask me "Can you MAKE me a pen like this, or MAKE me one this color, or one this size. When I get it done and they are happy, they pay me for making what they wanted. So I guess what is important to me is "WHAT" my customers call me and that they keep calling me. :biggrin:
 
I get a little bag with pen components inside, it is my hobby to make these bits and pieces into a gorgeous pen that customers would pay money for.

I consider myself a Penmaker....
 
WE make pens and very beautiful and artful ones. You'd be surprised at how some artists complete a painting. You'd think that they would sit and construct the painting completely from what was on their mind, no so. Some use projectors, some use photographs, some use computers. Your woman was too judgmental and I'll bet your pens equal hers in beauty. Isn't that what is important?
 
Completely regardless of what someone decides to call or name me, I am what I am, just like Popeye. All this brings to mind an old childhood saying "Stick & stones may break my bones, but words will never harm me." Those same words may hurt my feelings for a bit, but I will get over that.

I do not make anything that goes into the pens I assemble. The componants come from a vendor somewhere, the wood is one of God's wonderful creations. In my not so humble way, I like to claim I made this pen. Not so. I just found the beauty of the wood, applied some type of finish and stuck it all together. If this makes me a "pen maker", "pen turner", or general flunky, I do not care. I AM HAVING FUN AND WILL CONTINUE.:tongue::wink::smile::biggrin::beer::beer::beer: There, I said it. sorry for the shout.
Charles
 
ctubbs said:
Completely regardless of what someone decides to call or name me, I am what I am, just like Popeye. All this brings to mind an old childhood saying "Stick & stones may break my bones, but words will never harm me." Those same words may hurt my feelings for a bit, but I will get over that.

I do not make anything that goes into the pens I assemble. The componants come from a vendor somewhere, the wood is one of God's wonderful creations. In my not so humble way, I like to claim I made this pen. Not so. I just found the beauty of the wood, applied some type of finish and stuck it all together. If this makes me a "pen maker", "pen turner", or general flunky, I do not care. I AM HAVING FUN AND WILL CONTINUE.:tongue::wink::smile::biggrin::beer::beer::beer: There, I said it. sorry for the shout.
Charles
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+ 1

Lin.
 
maxman400 said:
I have never been to to any of these shows so I do not understand or know what it is that THEY DO. All I know is that I have friends, relatives and people that I don't even know ask me "Can you MAKE me a pen like this, or MAKE me one this color, or one this size. When I get it done and they are happy, they pay me for making what they wanted. So I guess what is important to me is "WHAT" my customers call me and that they keep calling me. :biggrin:
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I have participated in a few and they are all pretty much the same. You have 3 factions of people. You have vintage pen sellers, those guys are the most common and the reason for most of the attendance. You have guys that make pens. You have dealers of new factory pens. The Vintage people think that old pens are the only good pens you can get and they are very stuck in their way...I think their underwear is vintage too :wink:. The people that make their own pens are in competition big time, and it's like a war zone, because you have to compete with people that have the same pen and convince people that your pen which is the same as his pen is better made. Most people will walk right buy you as soon as they see kits, so it gets frustrating and this is why you end up butting heads with pen makers. The dealers are the only ones you can really get along with on either side of the fence, because they have new pens, but they are pens that were proven over time, stretching between new and vintage. If you show up at a pen show with kit pens, expect to be beat on. The only reason a pen maker would go to a show like this is because he's transitioning into kitless pens, he has a very unique line all to himself and he is making himself seen. He won't make any profit, but by standing in the front lines he is still making a name for himself where the vintage people will watch and keep an eye on you into the future..you have to earn their respect, and unfortunately, if you are planning to push yourself into a real serious pen market, you have to have the respect of the vintage people. Climbing to the top is never easy..it can get real ugly, and how you handle it and keep fighting on is equal to the success you will eventually have. I go to art shows if I want to sell pens, I go to pen shows to build a brand.
 
workinforwood said:
maxman400 said:
I have never been to to any of these shows so I do not understand or know what it is that THEY DO. All I know is that I have friends, relatives and people that I don't even know ask me "Can you MAKE me a pen like this, or MAKE me one this color, or one this size. When I get it done and they are happy, they pay me for making what they wanted. So I guess what is important to me is "WHAT" my customers call me and that they keep calling me. :biggrin:
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I have participated in a few and they are all pretty much the same. You have 3 factions of people. You have vintage pen sellers, those guys are the most common and the reason for most of the attendance. You have guys that make pens. You have dealers of new factory pens. The Vintage people think that old pens are the only good pens you can get and they are very stuck in their way...I think their underwear is vintage too :wink:. The people that make their own pens are in competition big time, and it's like a war zone, because you have to compete with people that have the same pen and convince people that your pen which is the same as his pen is better made. Most people will walk right buy you as soon as they see kits, so it gets frustrating and this is why you end up butting heads with pen makers. The dealers are the only ones you can really get along with on either side of the fence, because they have new pens, but they are pens that were proven over time, stretching between new and vintage. If you show up at a pen show with kit pens, expect to be beat on. The only reason a pen maker would go to a show like this is because he's transitioning into kitless pens, he has a very unique line all to himself and he is making himself seen. He won't make any profit, but by standing in the front lines he is still making a name for himself where the vintage people will watch and keep an eye on you into the future..you have to earn their respect, and unfortunately, if you are planning to push yourself into a real serious pen market, you have to have the respect of the vintage people. Climbing to the top is never easy..it can get real ugly, and how you handle it and keep fighting on is equal to the success you will eventually have. I go to art shows if I want to sell pens, I go to pen shows to build a brand.
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Interesting read here. You are or were just at a show. What kind of show was it and how did you do??? How are you accepted in the pen world??? You are basically using kits but making great and different blanks. Seems like you would be caught in the middle somewhere by your discription. Thes so called old school pen makers, are they making their own parts from metals and tapping threads and such and are they using man made blanks or are they fabricating metal blanks also.??? I use the pen makers guild as a reference some times and I see alot of kits being used with unique blanks being put on them. Now they are suppose to be the high standards of the industry. I do need to go to a real pen show so I can oooh and ahhh.

I made a suggestion to Curtis with his questionaire he sent out and would love to see a section here of people who attended the pen shows. As I suggested that I started thinking you probably would not be able to get close up pictures of anyones pens because they will not let you. It is the same in the scrolling world to an extent except that they do have contests with ribbons and all. They should have this in the pen world also unless they do and I have never seen this.

Any thoughts Jeff???
 
John...I was at this show, the one this thread started about. I know the lady in question. She's pretty nice to me, she buys pen blanks from me, so i can't complain. If she has other issues, well I have to bet that most of it is situational. Like I said, being at a pen show, the competition is fierce, you have good days and bad, and things get said in the heat of the moment. I have done 3 pens shows in the last year and only made actual money at one of them. They cost a lot of money to do, you have a booth fee, hotel, gas and food, plus when you sell a pen, you have to pay for the materials in the pen, so if your expenses are $600, you might have to sell a grand to hit the break even point. Many of the people that attend these shows are repeat customers. You can't get them to your table until you do the show 2-3 times in a row. Each time you do the show, you start to earn some respect, the customers see you over and over again and then they will buy. The first time is always the hardest..they might buy a pen and never see you again..it's a fear factor. That same thing can happen at art shows too, not just pen shows. No matter what though..most of the people are there for vintage pens. Vintage means the pen is 50 yrs old or something like that..just like a vintage car. So the Vintage dealers, no they do not make pens, they sell old used pens. Some of them don't even work, but that doesn't stop people from buying them...they'd rather have the pen be broke than have it fixed with some new parts which means the pen is no longer vintage. It's like the theory you don't fix antiques, you leave them as they are...painting it will degrade it's value.
Accepted, yes I am completely accepted and respected by the pen makers...and well I am accepted by half and rejected by half of the vintage people. I stand in the middle. I go back and I'll become accepted by a larger percent. I carry a 50/50 mix of pens..half are kits, half are not. My kit pens are dwindling down and being replaced by non kit pens, which in turn people pay more money for them and more people stop at the table to see what's going on. You can't fool anyone at a pen show with a kit. They see it, they run. I like kits and I think kit pens are as or even more reliable than a kitless pen, but these people don't care about that, they want something unique and special, or old and broken. The material on the pen is never an issue. You can use a piece of pine, or a mammoth ivory...it doesn't matter, because high end is not the material, it's the pen.

I never saw pictures being an issue. Lots of people come and photo me and my stuff. This happens at scrolling events and art shows too. I just never remember to bring my camera. Heck..I was in a rush and forgot to grab half my displays for Columbus.

Did I make money...well I'll tell you honestly that no, I did not. I lost money. I lost very very little money, but a loss is a loss. I did have a really great time though...saw lots of people I know, especially from the IAP here. Saw people from shows that I know. Attended some great pen show events. Hung out with the guy in the booth next to me..he was a really great person and I definitely hope to do more stuff with him down the road, because we both know that life is not too serious. I made more connections, and got lots of cards out there. I always end up with some sales off those cards that will put me into the green later on. And I saw and learned about a few more vintage pens that I never saw before..gave me some great ideas to play with. You have to get some pen knowledge in your arsenal if you are going to sell pens no matter where you sell them. So..when I look at all the postives, I came out way ahead!
 
For me. i aleways refer to what my father was saying when people was referring his pens as kit pens

A regular black Mont-Blanc is a nib, a center bad, a finial and a clip pressed into two plastic barrel !


My pens is a nib, a center bad, a finial and a clip pressed into two plastic barrel ! Plus a little bit of my heart :)
 
Whatever

Throw together a pile of parts from a bunch of pen kits....one of us would go to that pile and select a bunch of parts and MAKE a pen. As part of that pen making process he/she might very well turn one or two barrels to be used in completeing the pen.

Another might go to that same pile chose a bunch of different parts and MAKE a pen...it might or might not look similar to the pen the other person made, but he/she might also turn one or two barrels to complete the pen.

Both cases the person took from a pile of parts that were not a pen and turned it into a pen. A watchmaker does not have to make all of the individual parts that go into a watch to make a watch. Nor does a pen maker have to make all of the individual parts that go into making a pen. In fact, in today's world it would be a rare thing when someone does make all the individual parts and pieces that go into a finished product.

My son sometimes makes computers...he makes none of the individual parts but when he is finished the combination of parts he chooses form a unique computer, sometimes it is probably the only one exactly like it ever made. He is a computer maker.

We can be called penturners, pen makers, wood turners (some of us) or lathe product engineers .... but in the end we all take things that are not a pen, and work our magic to turn them into a pen. Maybe we should be called magicians
 
arioux said:
For me. i aleways refer to what my father was saying when people was referring his pens as kit pens

A regular black Mont-Blanc is a nib, a center bad, a finial and a clip pressed into two plastic barrel !


My pens is a nib, a center bad, a finial and a clip pressed into two plastic barrel ! Plus a little bit of my heart :)
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Even though what you say is absolutely correct...you are completely wrong because you just brought common sense into the equation! :biggrin:
 
Who cares! I make pens from kits, and I like what I do, and apparently so do my customers. That's all I really care about. I have no desire to make a kitless pen at this point...maybe I will one day, but surely not now. I'm sure the "pen makers" like what they do...good for them for doing what they like. I see no reason to elevate what they do above what I do. I like my nitch, I'm by no means the best in this nitch, but I'm good enough for me and good enough to sell pens. Never let anyone make you feel bad because they think they are better than you...AT ANYTHING. Compliment them on their work if you like it, but never allow them to feel superior to you because of it, or more importantly...allow yourself to feel inferior.
 
To the computer "maker" comment, I've always heard them called builders or customizers.

Perhaps that's what we are? Customizers? Naw. What we do is more deeply involved in the final product than just picking parts and making them work together. (Though it takes a LOT more time to properly build a PC than to make a pen... )
 
Point

DurocShark said:
To the computer "maker" comment, I've always heard them called builders or customizers.

Perhaps that's what we are? Customizers? Naw. What we do is more deeply involved in the final product than just picking parts and making them work together. (Though it takes a LOT more time to properly build a PC than to make a pen... )
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:tongue:Hey I don't care what it's called building, customizing, making...I was illustrating another case where common parts made by - anyone - can be combined to make a unique finished product. Just like we do with pens.
 
Two Cents

I do not care what anyone calls it - Turner, Maker, or any other name. I am very basic in the pens I make but I know it is a hobby I truly love and enjoy. Sticks and stones..................................
 
Jeff Powell

Thanks for the insight. It is great to get a perpective from someone who is essentially one of us. You have grown over the years with your inovation of incorporating the scrollsaw and the pen barrel. But you started here with us making the same kits we all do. There are all kinds of people in this world and whatever rocks their boat and brings out the dollars then fine.

As for the photos thing I brought up. I am surprised you never ran into this problem and I thought with pen makers they do not want their designs stolen thus no photos. I see this alot in the scrolling shows I used to attend. That is one reason some people use glass on their portraits and things. It reflects the flash and you can not get a good photo. I have had people tell me no photos please. I used to go to those shows and report back to fourums with pictures if no one else did. I stopped going so don't know what the shows are like any more.

I do need to attend a pen show in the future. Sounds like some fun. Thanks again for the report.
 
I told a person that took pen parts, watch parts, that they were a "recycler" a person who recycles pens into newer models. They were not taking a Waterman and making another Waterman. Therefor - a recycler.
 
Smitty37 said:
:tongue:Hey I don't care what it's called building, customizing, making...I was illustrating another case where common parts made by - anyone - can be combined to make a unique finished product. Just like we do with pens.
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I got ya. Just wanted to be accurate, as I used to "white box" PCs back in the 90's. Then around the millenium I designed and hand crafted custom PC cases before you could order a case with windows and lights and crap from Dell. :mad:

:wink:

We are whatever we want to be. I don't think pigeonholing us into any specific name makes sense. Even with kits we apply a lot of creativity and skill to each pen that comes out of our shops. From the bushing to bushing slim all the way to Skippy's and Cat's amazing creations. The decisions made by US, the techniques, the talent, and the skill applied by US make these pens the results of our effort.
 
jttheclockman said:
Jeff Powell

Thanks for the insight. It is great to get a perpective from someone who is essentially one of us. You have grown over the years with your inovation of incorporating the scrollsaw and the pen barrel. But you started here with us making the same kits we all do. There are all kinds of people in this world and whatever rocks their boat and brings out the dollars then fine.



I do need to attend a pen show in the future. Sounds like some fun. Thanks again for the report.
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I still make a few kits too. I have no opposition to it..I like pen kits. Those people do not..so pen kits are not good there, but they are a different generation of people with different views about anything. You step out into the general public and pen kits are appreciated.
 
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