Are we pen makers?

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pensmyth

pensmyth

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Reynoldsburg, Ohio
My wife and I went to the Columbus, Ohio Pen Show today. I've heard about it in the past but never been able to go even though its not far from home. We had a very enjoyable time looking at ALL the pens. Classics, collectibles and some very nice fountain pens. Jeff Powell was there with a fantastic display of his pens as was Barry Gross. Every table I stopped at the vendor would ask "are you a collector?" and I'd answer yes, but mainly I make my pens and we'd head off on to discussions about our "hobby" quite enjoyable until I came to one table and the vendor asked if I was a collector. I gave my response as above and before I could finish she said "Oh, you don't make pens you just turn them" and she continued on as to why hers where hand made verses what I just turn. I politely listened, smiled and complemented her pens an walked away. My wife left after her comment about how I don't make pens I just turn them. While I'm sure she meant no harm in what she said it still "tarnished my feelings". My pens will never be the caliber of some of the very collectible pens there today but I still think they are unique and one of a kind. What do you guys and gals think? do we make pens or do we just turn parts for kits?
 
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I have heard the same discussion regarding photography. "I don't take pictures, I make portraits." It is just a way for some to try to distinguish a "professional" from an "amateur." However, "professional" and "amateur" are really in the eye of the beholder.
 
You missed the story going on in the back ground. She was having a very bad day trying to sell her wears and took it out on you.----Yup---that's what you tell yourself and you will be able to feel sorry for her.
 
pensmyth said:
My wife and I went to the Columbus, Ohio Pen Show today. I've heard about it in the past but never been able to go even though its not far from home. We had a very enjoyable time looking at ALL the pens. Classics, collectibles and some very nice fountain pens. Jeff Powell was there with a fantastic display of his pens as was Barry Gross. Every table I stopped at the vendor would ask "are you a collector?" and I'd answer yes, but mainly I make my pens and we'd head off on to discussions about our "hobby" quite enjoyable until I came to one table and the vendor asked if I was a collector. I gave my response as above and before I could finish she said "Oh, you don't make pens you just turn them" and she continued on as to why hers where hand made verses what I just turn. I politely listened, smiled and complemented her pens an walked away. My wife left after her comment about how I don't make pens I just turn them. While I'm sure she meant no harm in what she said it still "tarnished my feelings". My pens will never be the caliber of some of the very collectible pens there today but I still think they are unique and one of a kind. What do you guys and gals think? do we make pens or do we just turn parts for kits?
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I would like to hear more about this lady's pens. What made her pens unique and why were her's hand made as opposed to yours??? Did she use kits for the components or did she make her own???

This is an age old question in the scrolling world too. People like to flaunt that they make their own patterns as opposed to some that buy ready made patters and cut the pattern out and put it together. To them I say go sit on it. The same in the pen industry. Just because you use kits as opposed to making the pen from scratch doesn't mean they are any more the pen maker than you. I wonder how much I would have been able to control myself with that person. :smile:
 
If you use a kit, I would have to agree with her. I only use kits and do not consider myself a pen maker. I am a penturner. The folks who invest the time and resources to truly make a pen without using a kit deserve a distinction, IMO.

Just like in my real job. I am a home builder. Most of my competition are home contractors. The difference...I physically know how to build a home and do a lot of hands on work. Most of my competition just make phone calls and line up sub contractors for everything. They are master schedulers. They do not have the first idea how to physically BUILD a home.
 
Go to any major pen show, especially one that is mostly vintage, and you will hear that over and over. Many of the older (not all) dealers will look down on what we do. Much of it is from ignorance and exposure to the early days of this hobby. There are also many from these shows that see the value in what we do and embrace as well as encourage it. A good example of this is Stan who runs the LA Pen Show and Aaron from Pentiques. As our hobby expands with more quality items and more people going kit-less, this barrier will eventually crumble in my opinion.
 
MesquiteMan said:
If you use a kit, I would have to agree with her. I only use kits and do not consider myself a pen maker. I am a penturner. The folks who invest the time and resources to truly make a pen without using a kit deserve a distinction, IMO.

Just like in my real job. I am a home builder. Most of my competition are home contractors. The difference...I physically know how to build a home and do a lot of hands on work. Most of my competition just make phone calls and line up sub contractors for everything. They are master schedulers. They do not have the first idea how to physically BUILD a home.
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Just symantics to me. You can find this argument in every field. I am a clockmaker but because I do not make the workings doesn't qualify me as a clockmaker??? Age old question again has been asked for ages, is scrollsawing art or just woodworking.??? Is turning an art or woodworking??? Is pen making or pen turning an art??? Symantics!!!!!!!
 
I think there is a point somewhere along the way when we stop being pen turners and start being pen makers, sometimes I think I'm there, sometimes not. Very good quality is the first step, then some creativity in matching up the right blanks with the right components, then a heavy dose of artistry to be eye catching. Then lots more creativity to carve out a look that truely stands out. Early on people look at the pens and say they are very pretty, when they start saying "wow, that is amazing," you are probably there.
 
Did she 'make' the nib? Did she make her own ink? Just where does penmaking begin and where Penturning end?
 
Although I feel she should have kept her snarky comment to herself, I see what she means. I'm a pen turner right now. I aspire to be a pen maker in the future though and make kitless pens with a tap and die set.
 
Penturner is a misnomer , do you take a piece of wood and turn it on a lathe to be a working pen without doing anything else ? No , you turn a blank into a pen body then assemble it into a working pen , in other words make a pen = Penmaker . I consider myself a penmaker , I use Aluminum or Brass and resin or wood and create a pen . The only difference is the level of construction , my pens are more original but they are still made in a very similar way .
For her to make the distinction between herself and you is wrong , unless she makes the nib and feed and other internals herself . Turning a body for a donor section is no different then you making a body for a bag of premade parts . If she can make the nib and feed herself she will be considered a Master Penmaker but again it is just a distinction of the level of construction .
 
pensmyth said:
DurocShark said:
Were her pens not round?
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LOL, yes they were. Apparently they took parts from misc. fountain pens and repurposed them into rollerballs and ball point pens and such.
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Huh, doesn't Chip Foose take a car that has been beaten to this side of a junk yard and turn it into a one that the original manufactures would only dream of being able to have on a showroom floor. Though he if very talented, he is not a Car Maker.

I turned to my wife and asked her, "Am I a pen turner or a pen maker?" She paused and said, "your a wood turner and from that you are a pen maker."
 
pensmyth said:
DurocShark said:
Were her pens not round?
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LOL, yes they were. Apparently they took parts from misc. fountain pens and repurposed them into rollerballs and ball point pens and such.
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Oh, so she doesn't "make" pens either, if you use her analogy. She doesn't even turn them, she's just a backyard pen mechanic? Dr. Frankenstein maybe?

I look at it this way, we all make our pens, they don't come pre-assembled, or with a blank that only fits the one kit, or told it needs to be made from wood, etc.

On this site, I have seen amazing works of art!

Think about painting, Monet, Van Gogh, Chagall, Picasso, etc. They pretty much all have done paintings, which were put on the same medium, a canvas....
My thoughts...
 
Maybe we are turners and pen assemblers! (if you only use kits, that is)

If you tear open a package of cookie dough and put the pieces on a cookie sheet and back, does that make you a baker? What about taking a paint by number and coloring in the areas. Does that make you a painter?

Of course none of this make a hill of beans difference. it is just an argument that IAP has become so famous for!
 
The logo says International Association of penturners. I think a lot of where you draw the line is in your own definition of what a pen maker is and what a pen turner is. It changes with each individual. She just wanted to feel better about herself. And since she can easier belittle your efforts to make herself feel better she takes that route.
 
My father is a world class custom knifemaker. He cuts out his own blades from bar stock steel. He grinds the blades. He performs his own heat treating. He even makes his own screws. He performs very aspect of construction and finishing. He has worked hard for nearly 40 years earning his reputation as one of the best.

There are companies that sell knife "kits" that include a pre-cut, pre-ground, pre-heat treated blade. They include guards that are pre-shaped, etc.... The person completing the kits needs to assemble the parts, attach and shape handle material and perform all sanding and buffing.

They need to do a lot more to complete that knife than I do to finish a pen but I still don't consider them 'knifemakers'. To me 'assembler' is a more appropriate word.

So for now and the foreseeable future I'll be content to refer to myself as a 'penturner'.
 
What about?

MesquiteMan said:
If you use a kit, I would have to agree with her. I only use kits and do not consider myself a pen maker. I am a penturner. The folks who invest the time and resources to truly make a pen without using a kit deserve a distinction, IMO.

Just like in my real job. I am a home builder. Most of my competition are home contractors. The difference...I physically know how to build a home and do a lot of hands on work. Most of my competition just make phone calls and line up sub contractors for everything. They are master schedulers. They do not have the first idea how to physically BUILD a home.
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I also consider myself a penturner but I'd also be inclined to think that there is no difference. If I purchase even one of the parts I use and use it without modification then I am just using a smaller component set than I usually use. even if that is just a ball point refill.
 
You try figuring out where one term ends and the other begins.......

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/guides/jewel...se of the terms hand-made, hand-polished, etc.
§ 23.3 Misuse of the terms "hand-made," "hand-polished," etc.

(a) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is hand-made or hand-wrought unless the entire shaping and forming of such product from raw materials and its finishing and decoration were accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the construction, shape, design, and finish of each part of each individual product.

Note to paragraph (a): As used herein, "raw materials" include bulk sheet, strip, wire, and similar items that have not been cut, shaped, or formed into jewelry parts, semi-finished parts, or blanks.

(b) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is hand-forged, hand-engraved, hand-finished, or hand-polished, or has been otherwise hand-processed, unless the operation described was accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the type, amount, and effect of such operation on each part of each individual product.
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I'm sorry! I do not see the big uproar over one inconsiderate pen seller self inflating herself to make herself feel more important than her potiential customer. Her biggest problem is very bad salesmanship. Did she manage to sell anyone in your party a pen she had so wonderfully "made"? I doubt it, I know I would not have spent any more of my time listening to her blathering. You were very considerate to stand there and share your time with her. Congratulations on being so considerate.
Charles
 
Russianwolf said:
You try figuring out where one term ends and the other begins.......

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/guides/jewel...se of the terms hand-made, hand-polished, etc.
§ 23.3 Misuse of the terms "hand-made," "hand-polished," etc.

(a) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is hand-made or hand-wrought unless the entire shaping and forming of such product from raw materials and its finishing and decoration were accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the construction, shape, design, and finish of each part of each individual product.

Note to paragraph (a): As used herein, "raw materials" include bulk sheet, strip, wire, and similar items that have not been cut, shaped, or formed into jewelry parts, semi-finished parts, or blanks.

(b) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is hand-forged, hand-engraved, hand-finished, or hand-polished, or has been otherwise hand-processed, unless the operation described was accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the type, amount, and effect of such operation on each part of each individual product.
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Mike , those are the standards for the Jewelry industry which we have seen by the plating standards that the pen industry uses , does not apply to pens . The jewelry industry is held to very tight standards by the Federal Trade Commission . Who watches over the pen industry ?
 
I have to agree with the comment of very bad salesmanship. At what point in any of that conversation was she trying to sell you a pen. Possibly, maybe she should of thought about why she was having such a bad day selling her pens, maybe she was having similar conversations with all her potential customers.

I also agree with the comment about how you were very considerate to stay and listen to her rant. I personally would have turned and silently walked away before she was even done with her conversation.

And I personally don't care either way "pen turner" or "pen maker". When I start I have a bunch of unfinished pieces laying in front of me. When I finish I have a finished pen in front of me that I can be proud of. So call it whatever you want I still enjoy the feeling of accomplishment of finishing something that I am proud of.

So call me what you want. I will continue to turn/make/assemble my pens!
 
Well, this is an easy question for me. I am a world class mistake maker and needless risk taker of the highest calibre.

Sometimes a quality writing instrument that someone will eagerly pay hard-earned money to own falls right out of the happy mistake pile!

I don't care what you call me as long as you call me with an order. Otherwise, they are taking me away from what I love to do. Stick rounder is as good a title for me as any......as long as the credit card is valid!

Respectfully submitted
 
What if you cast your own blanks and turn closed end pens where you've upgraded the nib. Does this make you a penturner or penmaker?? Everyone will probably have varying opinions. As far as I'm concerned it truly doesn't matter if I'm a turner or maker of pens. You gotta start somewhere.

I wonder if they'd consider Skiprat a penturner:rolleyes:
 
EBorraga said:
I wonder if they'd consider Skiprat a penturner:rolleyes:
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Ernie:
They can call me whatever, and I don't even care!
But, when an artist such as the Skiprat fabricates his own TOOLING and MACHINERY from his own designs- in order to create his own one-of-kind masterpieces, any title less than pen GENIUS would be an insult!
 
I really enjoy watching this thread expand with everyones ideas,interpretation and opinion. I admit I was taken back when she made the comment to me and my feelings were hurt ... briefly. But I didn't take it to heart.
Here's what I've decided I am. I'm a turner who uses his talents and creativity to make blocks of wood, acrylic and other dynamic material along with pre-manufactured components into unique sometimes one of a kind writing instruments. I'm also proud to say "I made that".
 
ldb2000 said:
Russianwolf said:
You try figuring out where one term ends and the other begins.......

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/guides/jewel...se of the terms hand-made, hand-polished, etc.
§ 23.3 Misuse of the terms "hand-made," "hand-polished," etc.

(a) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is hand-made or hand-wrought unless the entire shaping and forming of such product from raw materials and its finishing and decoration were accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the construction, shape, design, and finish of each part of each individual product.

Note to paragraph (a): As used herein, "raw materials" include bulk sheet, strip, wire, and similar items that have not been cut, shaped, or formed into jewelry parts, semi-finished parts, or blanks.

(b) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is hand-forged, hand-engraved, hand-finished, or hand-polished, or has been otherwise hand-processed, unless the operation described was accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the type, amount, and effect of such operation on each part of each individual product.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Mike , those are the standards for the Jewelry industry which we have seen by the plating standards that the pen industry uses , does not apply to pens . The jewelry industry is held to very tight standards by the Federal Trade Commission . Who watches over the pen industry ?
Click to expand...

Butch, I look at what we make as Jewelry, so I think they apply. I at least try to comply with them as I feel they are reasonable.
 
PenMan1 said:
I don't care what you call me as long as you call me with an order. Otherwise, they are taking me away from what I love to do. Stick rounder is as good a title for me as any......as long as the credit card is valid!

Respectfully submitted
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Salute, Amen, Right ON!
 
I wonder if anyone thought that she may have been going through midlife crisis and had to bring us down in order to make herself feel good. In anyways I think everyone got a valid point and no matter what you want to call one of us at least we created something and we love doing it(Although most of you guys/Gals and I am behind you, not quite there yet:rolleyes:). She needed someone to praise her work and needed a big hug for it, which no one gave her that compliment, it was the ego thingy. Hopefully she had a better day next day. I think I call myself Pen Jokey. Of course after few years behind me. Heck, we are in 21th century anyways and there are nothing that anyone can make from scratch. So everything we do has some components that is already made. Like imagine when they call it Home Made Ice Cream, how many homes have to really make those ice creams in order to feed the entire USA. :wink::biggrin:
 
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I hand turn all my pens, I usually embellish them in some way. I am a pen turner that makes unique "hand-made" pens they may be mostly kits but anyone can buy a mass produced pen but they can only buy a pen that I made from me. Therefore I am also a pen-maker.:biggrin: If it sells I am happy.
 
You know I was going to attend this show later on Saturday to see what it is all about. I'm wondering if now it is even worth my time as I am just some penturning assembler. I was hoping to go there and learn some things and get inspiration. Although knowing me I will still attend and look forward to someone acting that way with me, see how I end up responding. :)

Mainly was wanting to go and meet Jeff in person and whoever else might be there that I know indirectly.
 
I make pens. Some are kits, some are not. If it's a kit, but I had to spin it and assemble it, well, I made a pen. If I did not make that pen, then General Motors did not make my car.

I do these shows. I take some hits and jabs from people all the time, mostly the vintage people of course. I can argue with them. I can show them things that they can't even dream of doing, I can start pulling out magazine articles and awards. I choose not to. What they think about what I do is not important to me. All that matters to me is having a good time. I can't take these shows or anything else in life too seriously. I do not want to become a depressed person, I want to be the person people come to for being contagiously happy!

So who cares what she said. Come to my table, we'll drink yaegermeister and get kicked out of the building for dancing naked on the table! :biggrin:
 
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I don't even make really good pens, but I bet I could sell more than she can!

I always tell my kids that, "you will met people smarter than you, stroner than you, wealthier than you, more educated than you, pretty than you, but you will never, ever meet anyone better than you. They have taken that to heart and in face of a lot of adversity they can stand their ground with anyone.

I have no idea what that has to do with anything, but when I started I thought it made sense. lol.
 
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