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OKLAHOMAN

OKLAHOMAN

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Joined
May 17, 2006
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Over the last three nights I've had conversations with two of our long term members and both indicated that they were or have thought of leaving the IAP. The reasons given were concern over the direction some threads have gone and how in the last couple of years they seem to go south with personal attacks. Things said here are things that would never be said face to face for fear of physical attack. Snide remarks don't help anyone, if you disagree with someone thats fine but leave snide remarks in the back of your brain not on the keyboard. We have a feature here called PM (personel Message) take your disagreement off the thread and you just might find a new friend.
In the last couple of years we've had members who were very active supporters of the IAP virtually stop posting or just check in once or twice a month, for various reasons, some personal,some just tired of what they think is crap.
Some of you newer as well as our older members are missing a wealth of knowlege from members like Dario, Al(Doc Stram),Anthony(penworks)Cav(wdcav1952) and yes even Steven(Skip Rat) just to name a few. Not saying these are the only members who have cut back posting or stopped altogether and for their own reasons.
The reason I am writing this is that I have the upmost respect for two members that I spoke with and maybe this is a wake-up call to me.
So before you post that snide or hurtful responce....stop reread your post, then hit delete
Lets all remember we're in Jeffs house and his guest, please act as a guest.

Ok so now I'm off my soap box.......
 
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Thank you Roy, I have been guilty of that in the past and I apologize to everyone for that. I too miss a lot of the guys that have stopped posting. I just wish we could get them back.
 
I agree Roy! Thanks for posting this. I sure hope that the members you identified will start contributing again. People like me NEED them.
 
Well said I know I was not a real regular but have also backed way off as I felt things had changed quite a bit on this site. I do lurk but have stayed away from posting... Maybe this might just get people thinking about what this site was designed for and we are all Jeff's guests!
 
Roy

Your words carry alot of trueth and in particular that there is a attidude change here and I have talked about this with several members here. Some members that have or do carry some weight here. I know myself have been guilty of some posts that I usually do not make but get caught up in the thread. I have tried staying away for some time because I have gotten some irritating PMs from people that need to look in the mirror. I am sure I am on people's ignore list but that is just fine. But there definetly has been a change in the atmosphere here which includes anything from sharing ideas, to sharing opinions. I do have to say though I have seen worse.

I can name so many big name players here that just do not show up or partake for one reason or another and this is a huge loss. I have talked with some members about these names and asked the question where would this site be if it were not for people that first joined this forum?? This is what I miss the most when I come here.

With that said though there are some talented pen turners here that I hope stick around and continue to share. Of all the stupid posts about copyrights and protecting work and stuff like this is such a turnoff and that is not what this site is about at least that is what I thought years ago when I joined.

We all have our quirks about ourselves and this is what makes us all different and we all have our threshold that gets us riled or buttons that get pushed to get us to the point we are not who we seemed to be. It is so easy to push that send button but it is just as easy to push the delete button so I guess I need to become more watchful before I pass judgement. But I hope other do too.

What ties this all together is the need for more and more of these type posts. Over the past year or so I have seen so many of these type posts along with apology posts and people leaving posts and it makes you start to scratch ones head. Why are so many of these posts showing up. Is there a change in attidude here and what is driving it?? Is it the weather, the economy, the bordom or whatever?? Anyway hope it does turn around and gets better. Hate to loose even more good folks here. It is a pleasure to have such a site and all the hard work that goes into it behind closed doors does get overlooked at times and it should not.

Well I finally did it and made a reply to one of these types of posts.:smile:
 
Thanks Roy. I've been noticing the absence of these members myself and, have wondered if "I" was in any way responsible with my posts. If that's the case, I sincerely apoligize to each one and, request them to send a PM with their thoughts. I do miss following their threads and, gleaning from them.
 
Well said Roy. And lets not forget that a big part of how we season the meat of our conversations with one other is through nonverbal cues. Vocal inflections, body language, the look of our eyes, and so on. All this is taken away from us in an Internet forum environment aside from the occasional smiley added to the text. It increases the opportunity for our comments to be miscommunicated by a large factor. Add to that the fact that some people simply don't think before they speak anyway and we have plenty of opportunity for disagreement and word wars on Internet forums. The fact that it doesn't happen more frequently in places like IAP and one other (non pen related) forum I frequent I think is a testament to the quality of the people that make up these small Internet communities.

If I do develop a habit of offending forum members then send me a respectful PM to help me understand. Posting negative comments or sending disrespectful PMs is only adding fuel to the fire. Don't waste your time pointing out my offensiveness by being offensive. Otherwise point it out to the mods and let the mods deal with it as they deem necessary.

Personally I find it best to keep my responses a little less colorful than usual and not too personal. Too many genuinely good people here to have me littering up the place with jokes and sarcasm at some one else's expense considering my comments will probably get miscommunicated anyway because you can't see the respectful smile on my face or hear the respectful gratitude in my voice.
 
I too want to say good post Roy and though I am not a long time member and not a newbie either. It would be nice if we could get something like this message to each new member something like required reading before joining. Just look at the join dates of those that responded to this thread most are long time members. I think the newer members just need a little direction.

Thanks Roy

Hey Cuban time in the Spring maybe :highfive:

.
 
OK, how do we fix things? Do we just let people try to watch their own tone and temper their own messages? Or do we step up moderation on these types of issues? I am all ears for suggestions, especially since I now have 2 new moderators for help.
 
Well in any group there's always just a small few that don't get it or like to cause trouble. As these individuals are identified they should be pulled aside and be set straight. Communication just letting someone know will usually fix it. In our case a PM from a Moderator.

just a thought I belonged to a few clubs.

.
 
Bruce,

In a perfect world, that would be great. However, I have done that MANY times in the past and I just end up getting arguments from the person who I send the PM to.
 
Maybe set a timeframe...

From now until 12/31/10 inappropriate posts will be handled by one of the mods PM'ing the poster and editing the post. That is labor intensive, but only for the next few months.

After that, posts that one of the mods finds inflammatory, inappropriate, etc, just get deleted. Nothing else.

I suspect that the idea of a zero butthead tolerance policy will percolate through pretty quickly...

Or we can encourage pile-ons of the butthead post makers... :eek::biggrin:
 
MesquiteMan said:
OK, how do we fix things? Do we just let people try to watch their own tone and temper their own messages? Or do we step up moderation on these types of issues? I am all ears for suggestions, especially since I now have 2 new moderators for help.
Click to expand...

Curtis, I think you already have made a big difference by adding moderators to help you...they have garnered the respect of the group, so when they step in many guys will 'toe the line'. The dynamic of the group is always going to change/evolve, everything works itself out in the end! :cool:
 
MesquiteMan said:
Bruce,

In a perfect world, that would be great. However, I have done that MANY times in the past and I just end up getting arguments from the person who I send the PM to.
Click to expand...

I know your a tuff spot something like between a rock and a hard place. I was a president of a model airplane club with over 200 members for 2 years. Now I want nothing to do with politics don't even ask me to be a moderator. I am glad to help and donate. I know your job is tuff there is no answer that will make everyone happy.
 
I know I am a new member and nothing turns me away faster than trashing other members on these kinda groups. I find these forums are a wealth of information. I have learned alot from the guys here and hope to learn much more. Just my $.02. I hope this forum stays around for a VERY long time!
Brian
 
Thanks Roy! This needed to be said. Disagreements about pen stuff is natural. But personal attacks have no place here and do NOT add value to anything.
 
MesquiteMan said:
Bruce,

In a perfect world, that would be great. However, I have done that MANY times in the past and I just end up getting arguments from the person who I send the PM to.
Click to expand...

Curtis,

You are in a very tough situation but you do a GREAT job at it!!! I wouldn't want to be in your shoes most days.

But, if that person that you have problems with doesn't want to comply with Jeff's rules, you have all the right in the world to perform your bouncer duties and show that person to the door. You don't argue with the Sheriff that just pulled you over for speeding, do you?

Maybe it is the Military side of me but rules are rules. Follow them or hit the road.

Roy,

I haven't been here long but have definately missed the 'old guys' that you listed. Thanks for the mentoring!!
 
I think moderation is, to some respect, the responsibility of every member here. When you see something start to devolve, say so (politely and respectfully) either directly to the person(s) contributing to the problem or to a moderator. Don't let things get to the point of no return.
 
The problem I think is that different people are going to see offensive posts differently. What I think is offensive might be different then what other people find offensive and vise versa. Some people might post and in their minds what they are posting is perfectly normal but others might get offended by it. I even think our three moderators may not agree on which posts are offensive.

I do think it best if everyone would just try to moderate themselves so that the moderators would not have too much work to do.
 
Nice post... I think thinking twice before posting things is a perfect first step.... Also - I know that Curtis has said he is open to suggestions....

My current suggestion for those seeing this - use the report post button! Worst case scenario is that Curtis, Andrew and I end up discussing things. I know we tend to read alot on here, but can't see all... Curtis has some backup now... Lets use it if necessary.

I don't want us to over-moderate, but I want to keep this as the best group on the net (something that I think we are, but we have gotten a bit rough on the edges of late).
 
Nice post and thoughts.

I gotta say though, after reading the thread, I thought of one thing when I was all done reading..

Isn't this the 10th thread i've read this topic this since the beginning of summer?

Granted, i'm still "new" on IAP. I lurked for a bit before joining, then joined and started posting in January.. I'm no expert and I obviously don't know what IAP life was like 2 years ago or 5 years ago.

I can't help think that i've read posts where people have said "i'm leaving because I dont like such and such attacks" or "Everyone needs to be nicer and etc etc etc"..

Curtis, because you asked the question.. I don't have a fix. Maybe it's time to pull out the ban stick when people start getting high on their horse and start disrespecting Jeff's house? (I'm talking a couple of days - week off)..
Maybe it's time for the members to start putting personal feelings aside and to start calling out those that do the personal attacks?

Honestly, I don't know.
I just wanted to make the comment that I keep seeing these types of threads, and while they're good and a morale booster for the "family hug", how long does it last before it starts again and the next thread is made?
 
^ That really came out like i'm a jerk with a "better than thou" attitude..
I really didn't mean it like that and hope no one takes it that way.
 
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rjwolfe3 said:
The problem I think is that different people are going to see offensive posts differently. What I think is offensive might be different then what other people find offensive and vise versa. Some people might post and in their minds what they are posting is perfectly normal but others might get offended by it. I even think our three moderators may not agree on which posts are offensive.

I do think it best if everyone would just try to moderate themselves so that the moderators would not have too much work to do.
Click to expand...

This is true and does make it tough. HOWEVER, if Jeff and you guys who are moderators see fit to change the rules or start booting people, then I think everyone will soon learn what is seen as offensive to the moderators and that's what counts. it's ok to voice your opinion to the "ump", but get in his face and start spitting and you'll get thrown out of the game. It will ALWAYS be a moderators call in those situations. When the human language and personalities are involved, there can never really be a clear set of rules... if that makes sense. If the speed limit is 55 and you're going 58, then you're speeding. That's a proven fact backed up by a radar detector. In the case of the IAP, we just have to leave it up to our moderators.
 
Jeff's house, Jeff's rules. If you are disrespectful and Jeff or the Mods (who carry out Jeff's rules) call you on it, either shape up or ship out. Plain and simple.

Truthfully I really dislike people in general because, as a whole, people are becoming more and more disrespectful. When I joined this group my views were changing and now they are well there are days when I feel justified for living on a dead end road in the middle of no where.

I try very hard to remind myself that I should not say what I want, that this is someone's house and people's feelings could get hurt. Most importantly I respect the people who are here before me and people who join after. This has been an invaluable resource and it really sucks to see the people who I can learn from leave because of jerks who can't keep their mouth shut when it needs to.

My sincere apologies for sounding off like this.
 
I love all the help I get from the forums and miss the people that no longer post. I was absent for about a year and only recently began posting again in July of this year. I did notice some of (to me) pen making icons were no longer posting. I also noticed there were a lot of new people doing incredible things. I guess communities change over time as some leave and some join.

I for one will continue to offer help when I can, ask for help when I need it, look at the wonder things members make and show off some of mine.

I wouldn't mind seeing the forums 'tightened' up a little, but I'm not sure exactly what I mean or how that would be done.

I have never donated to the IAP, but as soon as I finish this post I will. I never really thought about it before now, but I guess there is server fees to pay and such.

I know that most of us make pens as a hobby, but some of us do it to earn a little extra income or cover the cost of supplies. Some even have full blown businesses making and selling pens. Which ever category you are in, these forums improve your chances of success.

I just donated $60.00 and I feel better already!

Thanks for starting this thread and all the positive sentiment displayed in the replies. I love this place!
 
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MesquiteMan said:
OK, how do we fix things? Do we just let people try to watch their own tone and temper their own messages? Or do we step up moderation on these types of issues? I am all ears for suggestions, especially since I now have 2 new moderators for help.
Click to expand...

I think that self-moderation is a nice ideal, but it rarely works. It is all too easy to flame another person. However, we also need to differentiate between being rude, boorish and/or unacceptable and somtimes telling the blunt truth, which often times gets people peeved.

That being said, I think a system of:

1. Warning, and if it happens again, followed by
2. minimum x day suspension and if it happens again, followed by
3. Permanent revocation

I also think if someone is warned and/or suspended, and commits no more transgressions for a minimum of 1 year, then they go back to 'virgin' status.

That gives someone 3 tries at getting it right.

Just some thoughts.
 
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You could also have a 'board of appeals' for someone who feels they are unjustly revoked. Three people who are not moderators but who are members in good standing of IAP who could 'review' the suspension/revocation. The suspensions are at the sole discretion of the moderators.
 
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