edstreet
Member
First off what does it matter who makes his pen kits? The fact that SOMEONE is making them is all that SHOULD matter and we can order them. Also what matters is quality.
Why are pen kits so danged expensive? Alternatives?
- Thread starter Driftwoodturner
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First off what does it matter who makes his pen kits? The fact that SOMEONE is making them is all that SHOULD matter and we can order them. Also what matters is quality.
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Lenny
Member
I wish I could purchase the really nice components for under $10.
I also wish I could sublet to a supermodel.
Pretty sure neither of those wishes will come true.
I think the real question is, can I find the right niche. The combination of materials and quality of both components and finish, whereby the pen will sell at a price that will yield a return on my investment that is suitable to me. This has many more factors than just the quality and cost of the components. If your components cost $50 and you sell the pen for $250-$300, you may not mind ordering more at that price.
Of course not every area has a market for a $300 pen. That's a whole other topic.
You really have to know your abilities and honestly critique your pens. If all you can sell is a slimline for the cost of material perhaps you need to re-evaluate and ask yourself "why".
I also wish I could sublet to a supermodel.
Pretty sure neither of those wishes will come true.
I think the real question is, can I find the right niche. The combination of materials and quality of both components and finish, whereby the pen will sell at a price that will yield a return on my investment that is suitable to me. This has many more factors than just the quality and cost of the components. If your components cost $50 and you sell the pen for $250-$300, you may not mind ordering more at that price.
Of course not every area has a market for a $300 pen. That's a whole other topic.
You really have to know your abilities and honestly critique your pens. If all you can sell is a slimline for the cost of material perhaps you need to re-evaluate and ask yourself "why".
Learn to recognize a little chain jerking between friends Ed. It is perfectly ok to do that and if you don't like it you can always skip the post. The :biggrin: should have told you and everyone else that Roy was having a little fun.
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NewLondon88
Local Chapter Leader
Wow!!
He wasn't bashing the kits, he was talking about 'kit bashing'. That means
you take parts from different kits and mix them together. We used to do it
with model cars when I was a kid. (and when my dad was a kid) Nothing
self gratifying about it and it certainly DOES serve a purpose.. otherwise the
manufacturers wouldn't be doing it!!
edstreet
Member
Also WHICH Ed are you asking? There are THREE posting in here.
NewLondon88
Local Chapter Leader
Not so long ago I went to Providence with a few kits and some drawings to talk
with a manufacturer. He gave me the tour, showed me the CNC lathes, mills,
the plating shop, the screw machines the vulcanizers, the spin casters, the lost
wax casting station, the tumblers etc. etc. And he looked over the drawings and
the kits. He said everything could be produced there, from start to finish. When we
talked about platings, he told me that there was so little gold on the kits that it
wouldn't have much effect on the prices. But he did compare the slimline and the Jr Emperor. He told me that the Jr Emp was certainly a better kit, but not all that high quality. We looked under high magnification and it was surprising. But he did tell me that there were more parts and more metal, more work. The Jr. Emperor would probably cost about 4x as much as the slimline to produce. (before plating)
Now if you get into ti gold (no gold in it, but a more expensive process) then that would bump the cost significantly. But the gold was pennies per kit. (at the time,
gold was slightly over $1k / oz)
with a manufacturer. He gave me the tour, showed me the CNC lathes, mills,
the plating shop, the screw machines the vulcanizers, the spin casters, the lost
wax casting station, the tumblers etc. etc. And he looked over the drawings and
the kits. He said everything could be produced there, from start to finish. When we
talked about platings, he told me that there was so little gold on the kits that it
wouldn't have much effect on the prices. But he did compare the slimline and the Jr Emperor. He told me that the Jr Emp was certainly a better kit, but not all that high quality. We looked under high magnification and it was surprising. But he did tell me that there were more parts and more metal, more work. The Jr. Emperor would probably cost about 4x as much as the slimline to produce. (before plating)
Now if you get into ti gold (no gold in it, but a more expensive process) then that would bump the cost significantly. But the gold was pennies per kit. (at the time,
gold was slightly over $1k / oz)
Dan Hintz
Member
He quoted ed4copies before making his statement... does he really have to spell it out?
And everybody who knows anybody here knew which Ed he was asking....btw Ed -- it wasn't you.:biggrin:
NewLondon88
Local Chapter Leader
Of course not. It was Ed!
OKLAHOMAN
Member
:biggrin:Is this another "whos on first?" thread:biggrin:
Lenny
Member
avbill
Member
WHat's on First! and Who's on second!
If Whats on first, and whos on second! then where is ED?
edstreet
Member
Probably to subtile for me....I only have about a 140 IQ these days (IQ unfortunately does decrease with age in most people).
Well he's not on third either. I don't know is there. Btw Whos on first and Whats on second.
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Im confused. TIme for coffee
Sylvanite
Member
Third base!
Constant Laubscher
Member
Wrong, but Constant is making Mark's (Marksman) kits, and help a lot on the design of the final product. Mostly the on the practical/ machining side of things.
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Lenny
Member
Wrong, but Constant is making Mark's (Marksman) kits, and help a lot on the design of the final product. Mostly the on the practical/ machining side of things.
And how, may I ask, do you know this? :biggrin::biggrin::wink:
"I have decided to pursue a different business model and will be no longer part of Marksman writing instruments. I will concentrate on the manufacturing of small industrial parts, medical parts and also pen kits and will have something new to show shortly. I have established a new company that will be responsible for all the Swiss Machining.
Competition is always a good thing - Bring prices down and up the quality."
- from a thread started by Constant, Jan 16, 2012
With that in mind, I can see how Ed would think that Constant and Marksman parted ways...I thought that too!
Competition is always a good thing - Bring prices down and up the quality."
- from a thread started by Constant, Jan 16, 2012
With that in mind, I can see how Ed would think that Constant and Marksman parted ways...I thought that too!
OKLAHOMAN
Member
Wrong, but Constant is making Mark's (Marksman) kits, and help a lot on the design of the final product. Mostly the on the practical/ machining side of things.
And how, may I ask, do you know this? :biggrin::biggrin::wink:
Constant researched before posting it and found he indeed was still making them, either that or a lucky guess.:biggrin::wink:
marksman
Member
I have been following this thread for a while and feel like it is now time to chime in and dispel any myths and rumors...although I think we have gotten a bit off topic. YES, Constant machines the parts for Marksman pen kits and, as he said above, provides practical advice from a machinability standpoint and we even discuss design concepts every now and then. What I'm not sure many of you realize is what goes into "manufacturing" a kit. I can assure you that it is not just machining. There is a tremendous amount of thought, research and development, work and effort that goes into a finished kit, from concept to design to machining to deburring (which you guys complain about a lot) and finally finishing. One flaw in any of the above processes and we, the manufacturer, get reamed by the end user. Sometimes it is a tough position to be in but if we continue to uphold the highest quality standards all will be fine.
The goals and objectives of Marksman Pens is to provide the highest level of quality possible along with innovative designs and parts that make pens that sell. I will tell you that all of the above does not come cheap. We are NOT looking to commoditize the kit market or play the commodity game. We want and will continue to provide what our customers want. This is not a sales pitch so I hope it doesn't get deleted. The question was asked..."why are pen kits so danged expensive?" There is a lot that goes into it. Now let's go make some pens :smile-big:
The goals and objectives of Marksman Pens is to provide the highest level of quality possible along with innovative designs and parts that make pens that sell. I will tell you that all of the above does not come cheap. We are NOT looking to commoditize the kit market or play the commodity game. We want and will continue to provide what our customers want. This is not a sales pitch so I hope it doesn't get deleted. The question was asked..."why are pen kits so danged expensive?" There is a lot that goes into it. Now let's go make some pens :smile-big:
Constant Laubscher
Member
Now to get to the high pricing of kits or what is involved in making these parts.
Cost of a complete machine setup with all tooling ready to make parts - $ 200000 +
Qty plays a very big role in the cost of manufacturing.
The tooling cost gets divided into large qty orders and the cost per unit goes down.
When buying material the price goes down when you buy in bulk.
Tooling would include Cutter tips/inserts $23 each, drills( x 3) $ 15 - $76, Er16 & ER20 collets( 6 ) $18, Threading tools ID & OD ( 2 )$ $32, Main spindle Collet $110, Sub spindle Pick off collet $ 110, Guide Bushing collet $ 280.00
Then there is the type of material you are using to make the parts from Brass, 303, 316, 17-4, 304 .... Stainless or other metals. Now these materials that we use in a screw machine has to be within a certain tolerance to be able to hold a certain tolerance. Material that is used is either ground to a specific dimension and tolerance or you get what is called screw machine quality stock. The higher the tolerance the higher the price.
Then you have the programming of the parts that is time or you can use software that cost ( Partmaker or alike $ 15000.00).
Setup of a new part( have not been run on the machine) to make sure you get the part to match the print and sometimes you need to make changes to the parts. This can take 20 min to couple of hours.
When making pens all the parts have to work together to make a good looking pen and the problem with this type of manufacturing is that the customer would like to see a complete sample before they want to cut you loose and run the required qty normally a minimum of 250 parts or more.
Most companies will run the parts as per drawing/ print and I can tell you that the complete pen might not turn out the way you want it to be. I would love to just make parts but it does not work that way with pen kits. ( At least until a complete pen is made)
The surface finish is also very important. The better the finish on the part the longer it takes to run and that add cost to the part. You better have a good finish on stainless or you will have a very hard time making it shine.
There is a setup time between different parts, These 7 or 8 axis machines have up to 36 or may be more and different tools, collets and pickoff collets are used for the different parts, also the bar feeder needs to be changed over when a different diameter rod is used. Time to change between parts can be as Little;e as 25 minutes to 4 hours, it all depend what needs to be done.
The typical pen parts made from stainless steel would run from 45 sec to 2.35 minutes per part.
The parts then needs to be cleaned - ultrasonic cleaned ,tumbled (3 cycles) hand polished and then plated if brass is used.
Now for the packaging, refill, spring, mechanism.
All of these things adds up very quickly and when you sell wholesale the price gets doubled. Everyone needs to make there little bit of profit.
That is how a price gets out of have very quickly. At the end I have to look back and see is it all worth the effort and time to just make a $1 or $2 per kit and the answer is no it is not always worth it.
Cost of a complete machine setup with all tooling ready to make parts - $ 200000 +
Qty plays a very big role in the cost of manufacturing.
The tooling cost gets divided into large qty orders and the cost per unit goes down.
When buying material the price goes down when you buy in bulk.
Tooling would include Cutter tips/inserts $23 each, drills( x 3) $ 15 - $76, Er16 & ER20 collets( 6 ) $18, Threading tools ID & OD ( 2 )$ $32, Main spindle Collet $110, Sub spindle Pick off collet $ 110, Guide Bushing collet $ 280.00
Then there is the type of material you are using to make the parts from Brass, 303, 316, 17-4, 304 .... Stainless or other metals. Now these materials that we use in a screw machine has to be within a certain tolerance to be able to hold a certain tolerance. Material that is used is either ground to a specific dimension and tolerance or you get what is called screw machine quality stock. The higher the tolerance the higher the price.
Then you have the programming of the parts that is time or you can use software that cost ( Partmaker or alike $ 15000.00).
Setup of a new part( have not been run on the machine) to make sure you get the part to match the print and sometimes you need to make changes to the parts. This can take 20 min to couple of hours.
When making pens all the parts have to work together to make a good looking pen and the problem with this type of manufacturing is that the customer would like to see a complete sample before they want to cut you loose and run the required qty normally a minimum of 250 parts or more.
Most companies will run the parts as per drawing/ print and I can tell you that the complete pen might not turn out the way you want it to be. I would love to just make parts but it does not work that way with pen kits. ( At least until a complete pen is made)
The surface finish is also very important. The better the finish on the part the longer it takes to run and that add cost to the part. You better have a good finish on stainless or you will have a very hard time making it shine.
There is a setup time between different parts, These 7 or 8 axis machines have up to 36 or may be more and different tools, collets and pickoff collets are used for the different parts, also the bar feeder needs to be changed over when a different diameter rod is used. Time to change between parts can be as Little;e as 25 minutes to 4 hours, it all depend what needs to be done.
The typical pen parts made from stainless steel would run from 45 sec to 2.35 minutes per part.
The parts then needs to be cleaned - ultrasonic cleaned ,tumbled (3 cycles) hand polished and then plated if brass is used.
Now for the packaging, refill, spring, mechanism.
All of these things adds up very quickly and when you sell wholesale the price gets doubled. Everyone needs to make there little bit of profit.
That is how a price gets out of have very quickly. At the end I have to look back and see is it all worth the effort and time to just make a $1 or $2 per kit and the answer is no it is not always worth it.
edstreet
Member
So how does everyone apply a CA finish here?
Constant Laubscher
Member
"I have decided to pursue a different business model and will be no longer part of Marksman writing instruments. I will concentrate on the manufacturing of small industrial parts, medical parts and also pen kits and will have something new to show shortly. I have established a new company that will be responsible for all the Swiss Machining.
Competition is always a good thing - Bring prices down and up the quality."
- from a thread started by Constant, Jan 16, 2012
With that in mind, I can see how Ed would think that Constant and Marksman parted ways...I thought that too!
Almost 2 years ago a lot can happen.
edstreet
Member
Wrong, but Constant is making Mark's (Marksman) kits, and help a lot on the design of the final product. Mostly the on the practical/ machining side of things.
And how, may I ask, do you know this? :biggrin::biggrin::wink:
Constant researched before posting it and found he indeed was still making them, either that or a lucky guess.:biggrin::wink:
Didn't he also quit to and told everyone to stick it where the sun does not shine? Then 180 and 'gave everyone another chance' ?
wolftat
Product Reviews Manager
Someone should write a book about being perfect, I'm sure it would be a best seller.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
I guess this all proves that statements made a couple years ago don't need to be true today---the world changes and yes, I based my statement on old information.
Even pen production can, apparently, result in strange bedfellows!!
But, in this case I was clearly incorrect---I will be more careful in future belief of what I am told.
I misjudged my source.
Even pen production can, apparently, result in strange bedfellows!!
But, in this case I was clearly incorrect---I will be more careful in future belief of what I am told.
I misjudged my source.
Lenny
Member
I think as pen turners we are very lucky to have the wide range of available components to choose from, slimelines for $3 all the way to American made of the highest quality. The availability of components to choose from is as diverse as are the penturners buying them.
I imagine some of the old timers who started this hobby back when components (kits) where first becoming available (and were pretty limited) would read this thread and think we have really gotten spoiled!
I imagine some of the old timers who started this hobby back when components (kits) where first becoming available (and were pretty limited) would read this thread and think we have really gotten spoiled!
I have not given permission to anyone writing my biography.....
There is and it is....called the Bible.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
Yes, and especially amazed that no one has mentioned slimlines were about $5 at a minimum (I bought in volume). NOW, they are under $2 in some cases, quantity of ONE!! Wish car prices had followed that same "cost curve"!!
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
To address one other part of the original question---alternatives???
As a young man, I had two "outlets": Golf and alcohol. Golf cost about $100 for a day at the course (not counting the lost ball cost), Alcohol was much cheaper, probably in the $20 a day neighborhood. I could not find a way to derive ANY income (betting on golf was a COST for me) from either.
When I quit alcohol and started pens---I COULD and DID sell them---the hobby at first broke even, then provided a little pocket change and a weekend change of scenery, living in a hotel.
AND it kept me from the "vegetation field" that TV had become. TO ME, this strategy was much better than my friends who scheduled weekly meetings with their "therapist". YMMV, but I hope it is food for thought.
Ed
As a young man, I had two "outlets": Golf and alcohol. Golf cost about $100 for a day at the course (not counting the lost ball cost), Alcohol was much cheaper, probably in the $20 a day neighborhood. I could not find a way to derive ANY income (betting on golf was a COST for me) from either.
When I quit alcohol and started pens---I COULD and DID sell them---the hobby at first broke even, then provided a little pocket change and a weekend change of scenery, living in a hotel.
AND it kept me from the "vegetation field" that TV had become. TO ME, this strategy was much better than my friends who scheduled weekly meetings with their "therapist". YMMV, but I hope it is food for thought.
Ed
I've always thought it was kind of sad that the automobile didn't follow the cost curve of computers.....
Of course without the headaches - like putting on the left turn signal and getting "Are you sure you want to turn left?" or suddenly for no apparent reason just stopping with no indication of why? Or, when driving down the Interstate at 70MPH, sending you a message that says the engine has discovered a problem and must close now sorry for any inconvenience this might cause
Of course without the headaches - like putting on the left turn signal and getting "Are you sure you want to turn left?" or suddenly for no apparent reason just stopping with no indication of why? Or, when driving down the Interstate at 70MPH, sending you a message that says the engine has discovered a problem and must close now sorry for any inconvenience this might cause
And, for all of that long list, I am dead certain that you probably forgot a few things.
I know that it is next to impossible to get a manufacturer to make even 50 or 100 of a new design so you can see it before the production run even if you are willing to pay for it.
Constant Laubscher
Member
Wrong, but Constant is making Mark's (Marksman) kits, and help a lot on the design of the final product. Mostly the on the practical/ machining side of things.
And how, may I ask, do you know this? :biggrin::biggrin::wink:
Constant researched before posting it and found he indeed was still making them, either that or a lucky guess.:biggrin::wink:
Didn't he also quit to and told everyone to stick it where the sun does not shine? Then 180 and 'gave everyone another chance' ?
You are a blatant lier that put words out here that was not said.
This going to far!
This is the copy of the post in 2008
"I have removed the classified. All the negativity is not good for the IAP and therefore I shall also end my membership with IAP as of today.
I think this is a great forum and I hope everyone who responded so negatively would be glad to hear this and I wish you all good luck."
I am trying to explain here what it takes to make a pen or parts and you come chime in with your negativity, That was the exact reason why I posted that post in 2008. If you have constructed facts or information it is fine but always to get in peoples character or making untrue statements should stop.
If the moderators want to remove this post it would be fine but I am sick and tired of these negative character attacking posts from "edstreet"
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