Which wax do you prefer

[dabeeler]

Renaissance Micro-Crystalline Wax or Carnuba? I use the Ren wax buffed with a buffing wheel and have not tried the carnuba. Just curious what others like best and why.

 

[nativewooder]

Carnauba is a vegetable wax and is usually applied too thickly on wood. Works fine on cars as the excess is buffed off. Tends to fill the grain on wood and accumulate dirt. Ren. was is meant to be applied very thin and is ready to buff in seconds, does not show fingerprints and buffs to a high hard shine. That is why it is used in museums and on fine art and furniture.

 

[PenMan1]

I, as do others here, use Kiwi Natural paste shoe polish. Chemically, it is the same product as Ren wax at about 1/10th the price. It works very nicely for keeping down fingerprints.

 

[IPD_Mrs]

I, as do others here, use Kiwi Natural paste shoe polish. Chemically, it is the same product as Ren wax at about 1/10th the price. It works very nicely for keeping down fingerprints.

I would love to see some data to back that up. Do you have a source?

 

[hasha2000]

What's inside kiwi shoe polish? an article from wired magazine

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/12/st_shoe_polish/

 

[PenMan1]

Go to ehso.com (environmental health and safety organization), find the MSDS sheet for each company. The main ingredient in both products is petroleum distillates.

When I first read all the posts on this site, I didn't really believe Ren and Kiwi were the same stuff. I did a "side by side" test using Kiwi on a blank and Ren on another blank cut from the same board as the first blank. If there was ANY difference, the Kiwi blank shined a little more.

 

[Padre]

Go to ehso.com (environmental health and safety organization), find the MSDS sheet for each company. The main ingredient in both products is petroleum distillates.

When I first read all the posts on this site, I didn't really believe Ren and Kiwi were the same stuff. I did a "side by side" test using Kiwi on a blank and Ren on another blank cut from the same board as the first blank. If there was ANY difference, the Kiwi blank shined a little more.

This is great information. Thank you for this!! It will save many of us many $$$.

 

[PenMan1]

Chip. If you search the forum for Reniessance wax, you'll see we have been looking at this topic for a long time. I couldn't believe it, until I tried it!

 

[chrisk]

Before knowing the IAP forum, I used Carnauba wax after filling the wood's grain with cellulosic sealer. The other way to apply carnauba is with the Beall wood buffing kit.
In either case, carnauba is applied pure, that is by applying a carnauba stick directly on the wood or on the buff.
This is unlike the carnauba brand used to polish cars, etc. Those are blends where carnauba enters for small parts.
Some years ago, I made a wax with 15% carnauba in order to polish furniture. It was simply unworkable. I later learned that 7-8% is a maximum.
Anyway, for our purpose, once the grain of the wood is filled (cellulosic sealer, CA, etc.), carnauba is a very durable finish.

 

[JerrySambrook]

Andy, Being made of the same materials does not make them the same thing.

Look at real aspirin and heroin and morphine.

They are made from the same chemical materials but are WAY different from each other.
It is how they are processed, how much of each material that goes into them, that make them different.

 

[IPD_Mrs]

I don't want to start a war here but they are not exactly the same thing. If they were museums across the globe would be using kiwi over ren wax to help their budgets. Unless you believe hamburger is the same as fillet Mignon! They are both beef.

 

[Timbo]

Andy, Being made of the same materials does not make them the same thing.

Look at real aspirin and heroin and morphine.

They are made from the same chemical materials but are WAY different from each other.
It is how they are processed, how much of each material that goes into them, that make them different.

Not quite. Aspirin and heroin and morphine are not mixtures, they are distinct chemical compounds, or molecules. Petroleum distillates are mixtures of many different petroleum based compounds. They can contain methane, butane, hexane, light machine oil, fuel oil, motor oil, waxes, and all the way up to the blackest tar. What mixture of these compounds ren wax or kiwi polish contain I don't know, but if they are both based on petroleum distillates, and they perform similarly as a polish, I would venture to guess they contain a lot of the same stuff. I'm sure they are both trade secrets so we'll never know...or maybe we'll see it on wikileaks one day.

 

[KenV]

I have long understood that Kiwi was Carnuba wax with solvents -- the Wired reference confirms that.

RenWax, last time I checked was microcrystaline waxes - that reads to mean it comes from petroleum refining processes - and is different from Carnuba.

I use both -- and for different application methods.

I do not have any regrets using kiwi to recharge a carnuba buff and have applied it to wood and then gone to the buff.

Both have good outcomes -- and I agree with Andy on that point!!!!

 

[ed4copies]

Since the original question was "Which WAX do you prefer?" and since Kiwi is undoubtedly a wax, the question need not be amended to include Kiwi as a possible direct answer (Making Smitty very happy!!).

I learned something!!!

 

[IPD_Mrs]

I do not have any regrets using kiwi to recharge a carnuba buff and have applied it to wood and then gone to the buff.

Ken, if I understand this correctly you use the kiwi over carnuba. Is there a reason you don't use carnuba over carnuba? Does it work better, is it an economical choice, is it because they have the same base? I am just currious because you said you did this on re-buffs.

 

[PenMan1]

Sorry, you can call it Microcrystaline or anything else you want, but Ren, JUST LIKE KIWI, is a small amount of carnuba suspended in heavy Naptha.

I suggest waxing two pens finished exactly the same way with both products (as I did). Then if the Ren finish is worth 10-20 times more or is 10-20 times more durable, you should buy Ren wax. I am perfectly happy with the results of Kiwi (more so actually) and will continue to use it. As I originally stated, in reply to OP, Kiwi Natural Paste Polish is my favorite wax, and others here also use and prefer it.

Respectfully submitted.

 

[PenMan1]

My understanding is that Ren Wax was originally made for the Smithsonian, commissioned and paid for by the Government. Sometimes I can't help but feel that it is the proverbial $1,200 Government toilet seat.

Maybe I am predjuiced against Ren because when a chemist told me it was the same as shoe polish. I immediately got angered, and bought the Kiwi only in an effort to prove him wrong. Actually, I think he was right.

Respectfully submitted.

 

[bitshird]

Andy, the only difference I have noticed is that Kiwi takes longer to haze over when you apply it, and even after buffing the Kiwi still has a tacky feel for about 10 or 15 minutes then if you buff it again the tacky feeling is gone. Before a show and when I just complete finishing a pen I use Kiwi. At a show after the crumb grabbers have had their nasty cotton candy, funnel cake hands on them I'll use Renwax since it's faster. but I honestly don't see much difference other than the time.

 

[KenV]

Mike -- carnuba with solvents is just carnuba after the solvents have gone. I find them interchangable and for some uses, the kiwi is easier to apply to the wood and then buff

 

[IPD_Mrs]

Mike -- carnuba with solvents is just carnuba after the solvents have gone. I find them interchangable and for some uses, the kiwi is easier to apply to the wood and then buff

OK I know I can be dense but where do the solvents go? Do they evaporate after time? Also what about on acrylics and other materials such as TruStone?


KenF---
You just had to go there with the crumb snatchers. That is the one thing I hate most about shows.....unsupervised and ill-mannered kids.

 

[KenV]

Mike -- aeromatic hydrocarbons do volitize pretty fast (minutes and hours) -- it is the departure of those solvents that allow the wax to become hard. Heat increases the dispersal of the hydrocarbons.

I take care that I do not over load the buff with was as it is much easier to do with Kiwi. I rub a light coat on the turnings with fingers and after it sets (haze develops as the hydrocarbons depart) then polish on the flannel buff.

Hard wax does melt from friction on to the buff with the same outcome.

 

[JerrySambrook]

Taken directly from the website www.picreator.co.uk :
"Renaissance wax polish was originally formulated in the British Museum research laboratories in the early 1950's, in response to a discussion amongst museum technicians at an international conference on fine-art conservation."
"In accelerated ageing tests, the British Museum scientist found that all current commercial waxes based on the usual natural waxes (beeswax and carnauba wax) contained acids which, in time, could spoil original finishes on national historic collections of furniture. He rejected them all and investigated the new so-called 'fossil' or microcrystalline waxes being refined out of crude oil. With their distinct characteristics depending on their geographical origins, the new 'man-made' waxes could be accurately blended to meet the needs of many industries, from cosmetics and pharmaceuticals to heavy engineering. Thus, the waxes combined Nature's best qualities with the advantages of modern technology."

From the Kiwi website: www.kiwicare.com/UK/Products/Leather/
"This unique blend of natural waxes and genuine vegatable turpentine helps prolong the life of your shoes"

There is no way anyone here can say Kiwi and Ren Wax are the same.
One is a natural based substance, and the other is a fossil based substance.
Do they look the same, yes, for a short period. Do they act the same, no, because the renwax REPELS acids, carnuba does not, and is an acid based substance itself.

 

[JerrySambrook]

As for labaratory grade aspirin, heroin, and morphine, they do all start with the same three key ingrediants (carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen), but are created in different processes, with slight differences in mixtures,( nitrogen is added to make heroin and morphine).
The end result is a different product of each, while starting with the same basic ingrediants, so somone who says they are made with the same thing things, so they do the same thing is making a false statement.
Yes, originally aspirin was made from willow bark, and the other two are forms of opiates, but part of the reason aspirin was "invented" was as a low grade opiate replacement.
And yes, this reply has nothing to do with the original thread, but is used to show people how making a statement that some things are the same becaus the ingrediants are the same is false

 

[dabeeler]

Taken directly from the website www.picreator.co.uk :
"One is a natural based substance, and the other is a fossil based substance.
Do they look the same, yes, for a short period. Do they act the same, no, because the renwax REPELS acids, carnuba does not, and is an acid based substance itself.

I did not know that about Ren Wax but I think repelling acid is an important aspect, i.e. from our finger tips when holding a pen. Would make me think that the finish on the pen would hold up better.

I use a lacquer finish, so does the final wax treatment lay only on top of the lacquer or does it impregnate into the lacquer somewhat? If the latter is true then wouldn't the lacquer hold up better with the acid being repelled?

 

[chrisk]

After all this, maybe the question should be: what is the more durable finish among RenWax, Kiwi and pure carnauba (applied with a stick on the lathe or through Beall buffing)?

 

[PenMan1]

[/quote]
I did not know that about Ren Wax but I think repelling acid is an important aspect, i.e. from our finger tips when holding a pen. Would make me think that the finish on the pen would hold up better.

I use a lacquer finish, so does the final wax treatment lay only on top of the lacquer or does it impregnate into the lacquer somewhat? If the latter is true then wouldn't the lacquer hold up better with the acid being repelled?[/quote]



I'm not sure about what would happen with a laquer finish. But I have big concerns about putting an "acid buffer" over CA.

According to Kodak, who invented CA glue in 1951, http://www.madehow.com/Volume-1/Super-Glue.html, CA is made from ester that is comprized of acetic ACID and alcohol and removing the water and adding the gas, formaldahyde.

If the base of the CA polymer is ACID, wouldn't putting a chemical that destroys ACID over the top of CA actually harm or destroy the polymer finish that CA provides?

Just a question. Respectfully submitted.

 

[JerrySambrook]

Andy,
Ren wax repels, does not destroy acids. SO putting it over cured CA is fine.
What is the product left on a surface after the curing of a CA has been done?

 

[PenMan1]

Thanks, Jerry.

If you like microcrystaline wax (parifin), here is a link to make your own. In order to use it though, you need to use heavy Naptha.
http://www.codesmiths.com/shed/workshop/recipes/waxpolish.htm

 

[Wildman]

I use Miniwax paste finishing wax and Johnson paste finishing wax. Both waxes work well on woodturnings and available locally. Do use a lot of Johnson wax for rust prevention on lathe ways and bandsaw table. Want pick up a can of Kiwi neutral wax and try it.

 

[LEAP]

Great thread and discussion, Thanks guys I learned alot today.

 

[edman2]

Has anyone ever used the new synthetic waxes like "Ice" from Turtle Wax? It is a car polish that supposedly does not leave any white residue. Would there be something in that synthetic blend that would be harmful to wood? Saw some at Wally World and was just wondering.

 

[chrisk]

After all this, maybe the question should be: what is the more durable finish among RenWax, Kiwi and pure carnauba (applied with a stick on the lathe or through Beall buffing)?

I'll never know... What a pity...

 

[Texatdurango]

After all this, maybe the question should be: what is the more durable finish among RenWax, Kiwi and pure carnauba (applied with a stick on the lathe or through Beall buffing)?

I'll never know... What a pity...

What do you mean you'll never know. Switch from an "asker" to a "doer"! :biggrin:

Why not try all three, come to your own conclusions...... THEN report back to the rest of us what you found out!

But, here is a hint....... NONE of them are going to be "durable", they just help keep the dust and prints off!

 

[ctubbs]

I have noticed the interchangable use of the words, wax and polish. From my 'fun' time in a body shop they are two different and opposed things. Wax is a coating to protect or cover a surface. Polish takes the top or more layer of finish off. Polish is nothing more than a very fine sanding medium. A good polish will break down into smaller and smaller particles as it is used in buffing, but it still takes off material from the surface.
Charles

 

[chrisk]

After all this, maybe the question should be: what is the more durable finish among RenWax, Kiwi and pure carnauba (applied with a stick on the lathe or through Beall buffing)?

I'll never know... What a pity...

What do you mean you'll never know. Switch from an "asker" to a "doer"! :biggrin:

Why not try all three, come to your own conclusions...... THEN report back to the rest of us what you found out!

But, here is a hint....... NONE of them are going to be "durable", they just help keep the dust and prints off!

1) For the "asker" part: sorry for asking!
2) For the "doer" part: I thought I already contributed with my poor knowledge. Please see question on post #1: "Renaissance Micro-Crystalline Wax or Carnuba? I use the Ren wax buffed with a buffing wheel and have not tried the carnuba. Just curious what others like best and why." My reply on post #9: "Before knowing the IAP forum, I used Carnauba wax after filling the wood's grain with cellulosic sealer. The other way to apply carnauba is with the Beall wood buffing kit.
In either case, carnauba is applied pure, that is by applying a carnauba stick directly on the wood or on the buff.
This is unlike the carnauba brand used to polish cars, etc. Those are blends where carnauba enters for small parts.
Some years ago, I made a wax with 15% carnauba in order to polish furniture. It was simply unworkable. I later learned that 7-8% is a maximum.
Anyway, for our purpose, once the grain of the wood is filled (cellulosic sealer, CA, etc.), carnauba is a very durable finish. "

By insisting on durability, I tried to politely bring back the topic on the initial question. Sorry for this.

 

[Wildman]

No wax product by itself is a durable finish! Carnauba is too brittle to use alone often mixed with bees wax and or other chemicals to make application easier.

The finish below the wax is what matters.

 

[witz1976]

After all this, maybe the question should be: what is the more durable finish among RenWax, Kiwi and pure carnauba (applied with a stick on the lathe or through Beall buffing)?

I'll never know... What a pity...

What do you mean you'll never know. Switch from an "asker" to a "doer"! :biggrin:

Why not try all three, come to your own conclusions...... THEN report back to the rest of us what you found out!

But, here is a hint....... NONE of them are going to be "durable", they just help keep the dust and prints off!

1) For the "asker" part: sorry for asking!
2) For the "doer" part: I thought I already contributed with my poor knowledge. Please see question on post #1: "Renaissance Micro-Crystalline Wax or Carnuba? I use the Ren wax buffed with a buffing wheel and have not tried the carnuba. Just curious what others like best and why." My reply on post #9: "Before knowing the IAP forum, I used Carnauba wax after filling the wood's grain with cellulosic sealer. The other way to apply carnauba is with the Beall wood buffing kit.
In either case, carnauba is applied pure, that is by applying a carnauba stick directly on the wood or on the buff.
This is unlike the carnauba brand used to polish cars, etc. Those are blends where carnauba enters for small parts.
Some years ago, I made a wax with 15% carnauba in order to polish furniture. It was simply unworkable. I later learned that 7-8% is a maximum.
Anyway, for our purpose, once the grain of the wood is filled (cellulosic sealer, CA, etc.), carnauba is a very durable finish. "

By insisting on durability, I tried to politely bring back the topic on the initial question. Sorry for this.

I highly doubt George was trying to be mean spirited, rather he was trying to encourage you to try it. A lot of times I hear mixed answers, so I personally try all methods. Then I get to see for myself what works.
Have fun & play a little.

 

[PaulDoug]

I have really enjoyed this discussion. I have been follow this debate on Kiwi verses R W for some time on IAP. In my mind (I use R W because I bought a large can and need to use it) it boils down to this, R W is used by museums because of the acid protection, but keep in mind their pieces are normally enclosed and protected, not handled daily. If they were the wax would be warn off in pretty short order. Therefore, for economic reasons it makes sense to use the cheaper but good Kiwi. When I use up my Res W I will switch to Kiwi. I don't know if I said this correctly but I have it straight in my mind.

Thanks for all the info and great discussion.

 

[Texatdurango]

Good Grief....... what a big flap over nothing!

I bought a large can of Ren wax, I think around 7 ounces for around $22, over THREE years ago and the last I looked, I had used about 1/10th of it or less, and that probably cleaned/polished several hundred pens.

Just using some quick math, that came to about $.000000000000000003285 per pen, hardly a financial burden and hardly enough to wage a wax war over!

When I did craft shows, when things were slow I would get a fine cloth out and open the can of Ren wax and give each pen a quick polish. On several occasions, it made an impression on customers who saw that I took the time to keep the pens nice and clean with the wax from the can with the fancy looking label. I wonder if I would have given the same impression with a can of shoe polish on the table! :wink:

Oh, to directly answer the original post, I think you can guess which wax I prefer!

 

[ldb2000]

I think the question of the OP has been lost here . Wax in general is not a very durable finish but of the 2 listed the Carnuba is more durable . That said though you are comparing apples and oranges .
Carnuba is used as part of a finishing system . It requires machine buffing to melt the wax onto the surface . If applied as it should be , what it does is add a temporary layer that fills in any imperfections in the underlying finish and adds a little protection to the finish . Once it wears off it cannot be reapplied without disassembling the pen .
Renwax (or Kiwi) is a barrier coat and can be applied to the entire pen , hardware and all . It is way too soft as a wax and when buffed by hand leaves a barrier against fingerprints and environmental conditions but is too thin to provide any real protection to the finish , when buffed by machine it is almost completely removed and only a small amount is left , mainly just filling any surface scratches left in the finish .
Renwax was designed to provide a barrier coat to protect Museum pieces and art from environmental damage not from handling as almost all Museum pieces are never handled by the public . Pens are handled and the wax is removed very quickly and this is where Renwax (Kiwi) is superior to carnuba , Renwax can be reapplied as needed without machine buffing .