Where is innovation?

[Fat Boy]

immatation is the biggest form of flattery! so you came up with a great new idea, you post it, someone copies it. BIG DEAL! maybe if you all worked together on something you can perfect it and make it better! half the people that have posted on this thread sound like selfish little kids!

I completly understand that you have an original idea and do not want it copied, but if that were the case than we would all be driving the same car from 1924. think about it, someone else built another car that was similar but had better features and eventually it lead to what we have today. think of what kind of pens will be made in 10 years!

i am sure that no one on this forum is the person that invented a pen kit so in a way you are all copying some one anyways.

The whole reason i finally joined this forum after months of lurking is because the willingness to share your work and how to do it. I fell in love with JT's braided wire pens, i tried to make my own and failed a few times, i asked him advice and he was more than willing to help! much like i would be if someone asked me a question that i could answer.

taking down the tutorials would just make this site half as valuable to new members (like myself) that may later on develop a new latest and greatest design. i would not have known how to do a segmented pen without the tutorials section, i am still reading the photography section and am close to getting my pictures down so that i can post some of my work too.

well thats all for my rant, but some people need to take a step back and relax, to 90% of the people on here this is a hobby, so get your panties out of a knot and enjoy it! go make some new pens and be willing to share your knowledge with a great bunch of people!

Chris---aka fat boy

 

[IPD_Mrs]

Re tutorials: remember guys not everyone LEARNS the same way as everyone else either. No one has a RIGHT to DEMAND a tutorial. If you are one of the persons who learns best by WATCHING and you see an idea that you really do love and want to try to learn - there may not be a tutorial we (all of us who have ever turned a pen, done an inlay etc etc) have a right to decide NOT to make a tutorial at any given time. We may make time to answer your questions once you have tried this that and the other and gotten to point V and need help the rest of the way (The way Eagle helped many of us along in the processes) But if you absolutely must have hands on visual education, drive out and visit someone who is willing to provide it - pay for it, take a class or two or three. There are lots of ways to accomplish these things without hurting IAP, the members or your own reputations. The tutorials that are needed by the new turners are pretty well established .. if they aren't I would suggest that we all pitch in and provide those as it was well stated by another member that if not for those they might not have even continued in the hobby.

 

[LarryDNJR]

I agree about the fact people need to not demand tutorials. Asking for them nicely is ok.

As for copying or imitating another persons idea or work has been over discussed so much. My thoughts are as such as others have probably mentioned. Don't want it seen don't show it here. I myself had looked on this forum and other places for something similar to the "Springtime" pens I've done. Using actual springs for the body over the brass tubes. I've done a few of them now it required a little effort, nothing outrageous or genius. I'm not really worried if someone else wanted to try it. If they did I would be flattered.

This place is about sharing ideas and helping others as has been mentioned many times before. I visit this site many times throughout the day for one to enjoy reading what most people have to say, but mainly to learn, grow and become inspired by others.

People are going to get upset, and butt heads etc. Everyone needs to just sit back and relax and go along for the ride and have fun. I'm trying to.

Done rambling, seems somewhat inconsistent at this point.

 

[alphageek]

Guys... Lets please get back to Eds question and off the debate of the value of tutorials.

I really like the "innovator" award. Kinda like the home page photo.. Its an honor to be there. I havn't thought of a better way to innovate, but I agree some variation of this thought could be a really cool one.

 

[jttheclockman]

Guys... Lets please get back to Eds question and off the debate of the value of tutorials.

I really like the "innovator" award. Kinda like the home page photo.. Its an honor to be there. I havn't thought of a better way to innovate, but I agree some variation of this thought could be a really cool one.

If you did do something like that would it require a TUTORIAL? Oh that word again.:biggrin:

 

[alphageek]

Guys... Lets please get back to Eds question and off the debate of the value of tutorials.

I really like the "innovator" award. Kinda like the home page photo.. Its an honor to be there. I havn't thought of a better way to innovate, but I agree some variation of this thought could be a really cool one.

If you did do something like that would it require a TUTORIAL? Oh that word again.:biggrin:

Maybe, maybe not! No-one ever said a tutorial was necessary for innovation. Depending on the complexity it may not be needed. Sometimes innovation is so mind blowing, that just the introduction of the idea inspires more inspirations/innovation.

 

[bitshird]

Heck every time I log on all I see new is a Super Sellers talking about the newest products they have for sale. Of course they want you to leave IAP and go to thier web site and place a order. This is not directed at any one person or business.
I don't understand how this is good for the site.

Gary, since the IAP has no function for processing payment and certainly doesn't have the bandwidth to allow selling directly on the site the seller has to conduct the sale off site, what's the difference whether they have to send a PM then go to PayPal to pay or they go to the "super sellers" site where they can find some great stuff that they would never see any where else and buy there??
The innovation is going to come through the extremely artistic turners NOT THE ONES THAT COPY Someone else's original work and reproduce it in mass, come back to the site and give some ideas, then it's up to us to take it from there, NOT by copying it, but trying to better it this is just my humble not so well informed opinion but it's mine and I like it !!!!!

 

[arioux]

I'm kind of lost on this topic and i'll try to comment as best as my knowledge of the english writing permit in a long post.

I started turning pens when i stumble on Russ Fairfield site one night, looking for something to when i retire. Wow, lots of information and the way he explained things was clear and easy (well looks like

Searching further, i found IAP. Wow, lots of stuff, info and how too. I was amazed at what Eagle made, Ron, Yoyo spin and all the older ones. And they where all shearing their knowledge (Yes, Eagle did wrote tutorial, just think about the lite brite pen). These tutorial pushed me further into pen turning. But i'm no artist, cretivity is limited (yes, a stroke can limit some of your mental habilities) and i pushed the top of my capacity whith the help of those tutorials.

Then some new idea came along, always pushing the limits and people started to think more about protecting and marketing their idea than sharing.

I see more and more blanks for sale, and it's normal, people whant to make money.

If tutorial, sharing of idea and all this stop, then rename the forum to IAP market place.

For me, it's simple: You want to share, than do it. You don't want to than don't , I for one wont blame you, it's your right. But don't blame or try to block those that whant to. Minus well ban Russ Fairfield, Ed Davidson an all the links to their sites and videos from the site.!

If you don't want you work to be copied (and i understand that also), then don't post it anywhere on the net, not just here.

What mix me the most, i when i see all the comment about tutorial and copying work and that many of those person where all agaist the "watch part pen" copyright claim. Funny

Please stay polite if you want to PM me about my position.

Well that was my two Canadian cents

 

[ldb2000]

I have come up with one or two innovative ideas over the years and even a few lately but the newest ones were never shown here , because the first few times I was hounded for tutorials and told that my not wanting to give a tutorial was selfish and wrong (using nasty language) so people who made no effort to even try to figure it out could copy what took me many hours to design and build . Heck even the Microadjust saw that I use for making my shell blanks got me several nasty PM's when I wouldn't give step by step directions on it's design . I have always answered questions and given guidance on how to do something when asked for it as long as an effort is made to figure it out first .
Why even bother to show an innovative design under these conditions and the attitude that has been expressed in this thread of "If you don't want people to copy , don't bother showing your work" I think is appalling and just reinforces my lack of desire not to show things that I come up with . I don't have a problem with someone copying my work but I don't think I should be harassed if I don't want to just give it away .

 

[maxwell_smart007]

I've noticed something over the years - the truly innovative designs don't get copied and sold in the classifieds....that's because they're too hard to make!

The second you get a design that's easily replicated, however, you'll see a dozen people jumping on the bandwagon and selling that design in the various classified sections. How many Skiprat or Greenmountain designs have you seen sold in the classifieds? Other blanks that just involve putting a different item in clear resin - while really cool and unique - are going to be stolen and sold every time - it's just the nature of commerce and different people's views on what is ethical....

The lesson here - if you're going to innovate, go whole hog!

 

[Smitty37]

What's new

I'm not even sure what innovation is...is taking an idea you see in a tv add and coming up with a tooth brush/pen so you can have both handy whenever you need either innovation? I suppose in a sense it is but then, does the innovater have some great right to that idea such that no one should copy it? Why? He didn't come up with the idea for either the tooth brush or the pen just the idea of combining them into one item.


I used that illustration because a lot of what's "new" that I've seen is just something different bedded in resin and once you have the basic idea of bedding something in resin to make a pen blank embedding something different is not terribly innovative even if it is unique.

 

[DCBluesman]

Splitting hairs, I innovate with almost every pen I make. You see, innovation really means to renew something that exists. It is infrequent that I duplicate my process exactly from one pen to the next. My innovations may not be as obvious as some people's, but they are, nonetheless, innovative for me.

As for making pens, I feel I make pretty wood pens. If someone else disagrees, that is their prerogative. Opinions abound. Some add value to my life, some do not.

 

[arw01]

An excellent thread and one that takes a bit of thinking and introspection.

A recent book just out: Where Good Ideas Come From: The Natural History of Innovation by Steven Johnson

Innovation, he notes, arises from simple processes, beginning with exploration of "the adjacent possible." Neither species nor ideas develop from huge leaps. Rather, their evolution consists of exploring adjacent rooms in a mansion whose extent is unknown. Only after a sometimes aimless trip through several doors does life or technology produce an innovation.

Building from another's ideas is the nature of human innovation. The guild system was employed for centuries to carefully guard and control the skilled crafts. Some countries, Germany comes to mind, still require apprenticeships and certification before you are allowed to conduct business.

Copyright threating posts should be closed or deleted, the lawyers can debate such things in the manner of commercial exploitation. The recent FIJI blanks certainly present such a ripe topic for discussion.

There was a post or two in the thread on perhaps charging for the more advanced tutorials. I think that might be an excellent idea for 1/2 to go the author of the idea and 1/2 to go to IAP for it's upkeep.

Maybe some of the most innovative, the 360hb, could be priced in a higher range.

No matter where you are in life, except maybe in the deep of the wilds, you will always have to deal with or suffer the presence of rude people. Should they pm you a "demand" reply simply you are being rude. A master teaching an apprentice may have NEVER taught them specifically how to do certain techniques, but the end product was always freely shared.

Alan

 

[1080Wayne]

Excellent quote Alan . All of the casting work definitely falls into the `adjacent room` class . Not quite so sure about some of Eagle`s work .

Will add the book to my Christmas wish list .

 

[ed4copies]

Guys... Lets please get back to Eds question and off the debate of the value of tutorials.

I really like the "innovator" award. Kinda like the home page photo.. Its an honor to be there. I havn't thought of a better way to innovate, but I agree some variation of this thought could be a really cool one.

Dean (and Curtis and Andrew)
This thread shows that concepts and policies are inter-related. Yes. I would like to see innovation greatly encouraged on the IAP. When I came here, segmentation was "the rage". A couple years later SOMEONE (I have no recollection of who) started talking about pouring resin. Look at what has happened now that everyone can pour their own blanks.

But I know some members (including me when I was doing shows) don't show EVERYTHING they make. For ME, the clamor for tutorials had a lot to do with my reluctance.

Two subjects merge here---if a thread has to "stay on topic", there will rarely be humor inserted and some folks have, over the years, sent me PMs and emails about how much they enjoy the "little diversions" that some of my threads (and sometimes other folks') become. Rigid "stick to the point" rules will eliminate that.

2 The other subject--innovation--merges with the DEMAND for tutorials. We need to recognize that folks post their pens because they are PROUD of them. Reinforce that pride a little, congratulate the poster, comment on the unique features---let him or her bask in some deserved praise. Several days in, ask (if you must) how a certain aspect was created---"How did you thread the inside of that, John-do you mind telling us??" A simple question opening the OPTION of tutorial tidbits. OR, if so inclined "John" may decide to do a tutorial. Also try to remember JOHN has a talent that you probably don't have. I feel I can make nearly any pen, but I have little imagination---Dawn has LOTS. Different people. But those who MAKE these innovations, for the most part, enjoy making NEW things. Once it is made, it is BEHIND them and they are off to the next project. They are THINKERS and TINKERERS, not EDUCATORS or WRITERS---to them the tutorial is a pain. So, if we DEMAND they show the tutorial, their next innovation will not be posted here. Not because they wish to keep it secret, but because they wish to move on and create their NEXT piece, NOT go back and review, step by step how THIS piece was made.

AS you may be able to tell, Dawn is instrumental as a "sounding board" to an innovator or two. As a result, I have had the opportunity to talk with them on the phone. This is how I have come to the opinion expressed above.

To conclude; a "thread" should be seen (I believe) as the "introduction of a topic". If we were gathered at a table, in a local IAP meeting and that topic came up, the conversation would cover related thoughts. It would even go "off topic" for a while, then return. That's what I see as the purpose of a thread---it's a written conversation.

 

[alphageek]

To conclude; a "thread" should be seen (I believe) as the "introduction of a topic". If we were gathered at a table, in a local IAP meeting and that topic came up, the conversation would cover related thoughts. It would even go "off topic" for a while, then return. That's what I see as the purpose of a thread---it's a written conversation.

Ed,

I'm not in disagreement with that statement. We understand that threads are living things... The statement that I made there, I would very possibly have made even before being a moderator.

You've talked with me enough to know that I can sometimes go into left field in conversations myself. However, I will also try and "drag" a conversation back into the original topic at times too.

I was doing the same thing here. The only reason to look at it from a moderation view is to point a thread in a better direction if it goes south (piling on or too much negativity). My post was a nudge in that direction, but more because your topic had merit and I was hoping we'd get back on that.

And it has bumped into other cool directions... I have to say I don't read enough these days, but Alan just put a book on my reading list and hope to get to it right after thanksgiving.

 

[ed4copies]

That author should be paying Alan.

I thought the same thing!!!


So, if Alan WERE the author, this would be an AD and not allowed. Do you see a problem there??? I do.

 

[Padre]

The tutorial should inspire inovation. I prefer to use the information as a starting point toget by a place that I could not see around the corner, grab a running start and go somewhere else. Unfortionly some find it eaiser to use it as a end all be all. That will occur anywhere people feel incapable to see their own self worth. Please do not ban the tutorial.

The inovator of the year is a grand idea. $5 to vote on the inovation is also a very good and fund raising idea. My $0.02. Add about $5 and a cup of coffee can be yours.

Charles

I agree that the tutorials here aid in innovation, not hinder it. To learn how to do a CA finish, then take it to the next level is one thing I can think of.

This site is a teaching/learning/social network site. Let's keep it that way.

 

[Padre]

SNIP

If we were gathered at a table, in a local IAP meeting and that topic came up, the conversation would cover related thoughts. It would even go "off topic" for a while, then return. That's what I see as the purpose of a thread---it's a written conversation.

Absolutely correct. Well said.

 

[bruce119]

I've noticed something over the years - the truly innovative designs don't get copied and sold in the classifieds....that's because they're too hard to make!

I like this statement. I had a few over the years I don't know if I am the subject of any of recent discussions. But to the subject of copying work I will take one that is related to me directly. The steampunk art pen blanks also known as the watch parts. Now I have started to offer some of these to members here. It is not mass production I don't claim the idea never did. But as was said it is hard to do and took me a long time to figure it out I came up with my own process and style. Now I am offering them to members that was by demand yes it was someone else's idea (although steampunk art has been around a long time) other members where starved for this type of work.

Now what is wrong with offering to others something that they can not get anywhere else and can not do themselves. Now just speaking for myself I am no way even close to mass producing. I make one of a kinds that take an immense amount of time because I like to do it not to make money just cover cost.

I think this is something good about our classifieds. There are unique items here that you just can not get anywhere else.

Just a few of my thoughts.

 

[ctubbs]

Ed's post 12,821 strikes a cord with me in several ways. First let me say that I do not have an inovative bone in my body. Once upon a time, I was a photographer. I even made some money from the work. I found that almost all the 'fun' was producing the first viewing of the shot taken. REguardless of how well received or wonderful the photo, once I saw it, I was done with it. Throw it in a box or away, I could care less. Yes Ed, i fully understand Dawn's feelings about her crationns. The fun is in the production of the original. I would have absolutly no intrest in generating a 'how to' for someone else to do this. What's worse, I most likely could not even come close to doing it the second time due to all the missteps taken the first time through.

Ed, let me say one more thing about you, Your post are almost allways well thought out and elequent. I like your idea of 'inovater of the year' award. The charge fee to vote for the best is also a great idea. This whole thread is a good example of inovation. Thank you to all the members that are willing to take their time to share with thoes of us that are still trying to learn how to take a piece of something and turn it into a useable device.
Sorry for the ramble
Charles

 

[Smitty37]

Inovation

Here is a little food for thought...you know if I personally came up with some novel idea regarding penturning or pen blanks or almost anything related to pen making....I would probably not even know that it was a novel idea. Why not? Because I don't know enough about the craft and its history to be cognizent of what has been done before and what hasn't.

Almost all new comers are in that position, a lot of them have never even used a lathe before they take up pen turning and they take up pen turning because it takes a lot less wood than turning table legs and seems a lot less daunting than turning bowls. We just don't know if something we do is novel or not. That being the case I also don't know if what someone here does is novel unless they tell me.

I was a test equipment/test engineer for years - I was very well versed in my field and I knew when something came along whether it was really new, whether or not it was something warmed over trying to be passed off as new and whether it was likely to work the way it was described. I often developed novel concepts...I had to to do my job and I had the right background and experience to do it.

With pen making I don't have that background or experience and probably never will. Yet I see things here I'd like to try some time. Do I want to try them bad enough to spend hours or days figuring out how the first guy did it...not on your life. Do I intend to go into competition for sales with the first guy that did it? Again, not on your life.

So before condeming the "copiers" you might want to ask yourself what this place is for...if it is intended to be an exclusive "old boys" network, so be it - change the qualifications for joining. If it's intended to be for turners of all skill levels from the lowest to the highest, then expect everything you do and put on here to be copied.

 

[Mr Vic]

Innovation Promotion

Ed,

I'll answer the original question directly before branching off. Set up a nomination forum. During each month the membership may nominate which post they thought most Inovative. The inovation could be pen design, material, technique or new tool. The nomination would include a brief(100 words or less) reason they think it's great. The nominess would then be voted on the following month. Give the members to say the fifth so as not to drag on. Winners would receive an Anniversary Mug and qualify for Innovaqtor of the year. The twelve winners would then go head to head in January with the winner announced in February and crowned King/Queen of the Bash. They would also win a pair of Anniversary Mugs (I really like them).

Now....We need to make it understood that most of us are willing to be "Mentors" but not "Teachers". We had this deiscussion at the local turners meeting this week. A mentor gives you tips and guidence free of charge and with a minimal time commitment. A teacher teaches you how to complete a process from square one and has a large investment of time and as such should be compensated. Equate a Mentor = tips/hints and a Teacher = Tutorials. Now the publishing of the tutorial itself may be considered compensation.

In conclusion I'd like to nominate myself for the Inovator of the month! Did I mention I love the IAP Anniversary Mugs?:wink:

 

[GaryMGg]

I don't have an answer to the questions posed in this thread, but I'll share some of my thoughts and perhaps some innovative thinking will arise from it.
(NB -> be forewarned, you get what you pay for, maybe less!) :wink:

With respect to Eagle and Ron and innovation:
Eagle was a woodworker, Ron was not. And, I was friends with both so this is not to disparage either of them.
Ron's innovations were "restricted" by the tools he had access to.
For instance, the `Morning After' pen begins life as a 4-piece checkerboard blank, which Ron acquired from another maker.
Ron had a good eye for design; had he been a woodworker, who knows what he'd have produced?
One day, I hope to see his Stained Glass. I'll bet it's quite well done.

Eagle was a mad-scientist; his envelope was huge and he constantly ramrodded the edge.
His philosophy, to paraphrase, was `each failure is a step to success.'
On the one hand, Eagle hated tutorials [other than the most basic how-to].
On the other hand, he'd spend hours and hours on the phone with someone talking around the subject trying to get someone to figure out
how to produce one effect or another.

One of the reasons he had such a strong objection to tutorials is the fear someone would hurt themselves.
And, rightfully so!
The first time Ron visited my shop and I was still fairly new to pen making, he set up his chop saw and stops,
then proceeded to put on heavy duty work gloves to hold the blank while he cut it!
I stopped him immediately and we talked. He didn't know it was unsafe to do that.

The other big reason Eagle hated tutorials is he believed it makes people lazy thinkers; he truly believed if someone would exercise their mind,
they'd figure out how to make something and that specific experience would lead them to further innovations of their own design.
He proved again and again the truth of his theory in the magnificent pens he produced! :biggrin:

Ron and Eagle fought over the idea of sharing ideas; their personal experiences and unique talents sent them down very different roads which
were really headed to the same location:
both wanted others to learn and grow, but each saw a different means to that end.
Ron was 100% favorable of specific, detailed tutorials. Eagle not.
Ron believed someone might learn from a tutorial, then grow from that experience.
Eagle believed the complex pen tutorials were harmful to the development of a clever mind and he was rightly concerned someone would fail to
grasp the safety requirements involved in the making of such difficult items.

Eagle and I disagreed on a principle aspect of his philosophy and often debated a point:
He believed everyone has a clever mind and can figure things out for themselves. I don't.
Further, I'd argue with him that some folks may have the ability but not the desire to innovate;
some folks are very skilled technicians who can follow a good set of instructions but they're not innovators.

So, where does this lead us?
I believe there are two basic roads available:
One road is the innovator's path -- that person will disappear into their shop and fiddle with ideas, until they've produced the thing their mind saw.
When the appropriate time comes, they may (or may not) share it here. They may produce a tutorial or blueprint for making the piece.

The other road is the technician's path -- that person will take a blueprint into their shop and make a finely honed workpiece.

Do these roads ever cross? Do they intersect? And, does the traveler on one ever wind up on the other?
Clearly, yes on all counts.

My personal observation, and it is merely my own personal opinion, travelers on the technician's road should not jump on innovators to post a
blueprint for how the innovation came about.
This is a thing which must be freely offered when the offerer is ready. If that never happens for some particular innovation, so be it.

I still abide with Eagle's concern regarding the safety aspect of our craft. All too often, I read here how someone injured themselves.
When offering a tutorial, please include guidance for safe production.
Remember, not all here are woodworkers; some will not be aware of the dangers inherent in certain tool uses.

We should help one another to be as good as we each can be.
We should encourage one another to be as good as we each can be.
However, the most important thing we can do is look inward and encourage ourselves to do all we can to be as good as we can be.
If you're an innovator and you choose to share some or all of your ideas and designs, that's great for technicians and less experienced future innovators.
If you're a great technician, share the means and methods for the safe and accurate making you use in your production.
If you're looking to learn to be an innovator, seek a mentor rather than a tutorial.
If you're a great innovator, answer the call from someone looking for a mentor.
If you have no desire to innovate but want to be a better technician, seek a mentor who is a great technician.
If you're a great technician and see someone wanting to improve their production skills, see if they want you to be their mentor.

My $.02 and worth most of what'cha paid for it.

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

Gary very well said and just makes me miss both. I also was friends with Eagle and spent countless hours on the phone arguing (discussing) pen design. I'm one of the non innovators and he also knew that my preference was man made material.And toward the end he started using more and more of them. Ron and I never talked but he knew I admired his work and sent me one of his segmented pens which sets next to my Eagle collection of pens and blanks.
As I said I miss both of them, miss Ron's Post's and Eagles Calls.

 

[scotian12]

Gary...I would like to thank you for your response. It was a great summation of both sides of the argument. I am clearly on the side of those that need the tutorial. I cannot visualize a concept in my mind but I can relate to it if I see a visual of it in a tutorial. There is a parallel here to the computer industry. There are many computer people who are innovators and who make the apps for us to buy. Perhaps this is a road we should travel and allow those of us who need a tutorial to pay a small amount for that information. This would be a giant leap for this site as we have always shared our penmaking concepts. Gary, I would agree with your statement on the safety aspect of our craft which most times are overlooked and which can be reinforced in a proper tutorial. I was fortunate early on my penturning career to be to learn from the great pioneers of our craft on Penturners Org,among then Russ Fairfield, Pickens, Richard Kleinhertz, Kurt Hertzog, Don Ward and Ron Mckinley. Many of these educators are still supporting new penturners today.I do remember Ron and his beautiful segmented turnings. I was concerned about how to cut those tiny pieces on a chop saw and wrote him for directions. He came back with a comment that he cut them free hand close to the blade. That was not for me. I would also point out that Ron was a pioneer in page placement on google and the other search engines. His site was always in page one of google and I too wold like to see what he is doing in stained glass. Many thanks to the innovators on this site and to those that provide the tutorials which help a lot of us to rise further in our craft. Darrell Eisner

 

[jttheclockman]

Well Gary I think we should just close this thread right here. You said it all and said it with great enthusasuim and truth. You summed up or put into words what 2 great minds were like that graced this site with each's own ideas. ( not so good grammer ). I remember reading all the ideas getting tossed and the heated topics back then. I did not even sign up to this site at first because I, even though I was intrigued with the lathe still did not own one let alone make any pens. But I was referred here by some friends and sure enough became more facinated and I blame this site for the financial outcome that followed.

As for myself I guess I fall in the middle of those 2 portrails. I like the plans and the tutorials to follow but I will also branch out on my own or a combination of the two. I am not afraid of failure which I have had many many times and will continue. But I do learn from my mistakes. I also learn from others mistakes and that is why discussions and tutorials I feel are a necessity to the growth of this business. There have been huge strides that have taken this business to new hights and there will be more in the future. Just maybe there is a very tiny spot for me in that climb. Hopefully we all jump on board and take this pen making stuff to those new heights.

Thanks for writing that post.