Is it just me or has this place changed?

[jleiwig]

I think the main point that some are trying to get across is that they are not going to give a difficult design that may have taken weeks to get just right like the herringbone to someone with 3 posts who hasn't even attempted it.

And I have seen some people come in with their 3rd or 4th post and ask for tutorials or instructions on how to do something. I just saw it a minute ago in a pendant thread. The methods for doing pendants has been posted a billion times, but this person didn't want to take the time to search it out, instead wanted it handed to him on a platter in the form of a tutorial.

Really if you think back in the day a lot of people here got so pissed at Eagle because he would only drop crumbs around and you had to find the path they made yourself.

I know a couple of forums we were on together he got kicked off of for his attitude. Most didn't realize that he wasn't trying to be superior, only trying to get you to step up to his level. I know a few times he really chapped my hide with some of his posts until I sat back and thought about it. It was really a backlash of the gotta have it know society. No one wants to earn their way anymore, and that's a sad commentary on society in general.

But anyway..I digress..I lurked from close to the beginning of this forum and the penshop forum to get a feel for the craft, but didn't join until a couple years ago when I decided I wanted to learn the craft. Once I joined I didn't start actively posting until recently because I really felt that it was probably better to let someone else answer who had actually turned a pen.

 

[Grizz]

Gee, if I know how to do something. I'll share it. I've done a how to with decals. Which afterwards people have expanded on it. I think its great.

After all, being part of a group like this is about sharing.... isn't it?

 

[Texatdurango]

Gee, if I know how to do something. I'll share it. I've done a how to with decals. Which afterwards people have expanded on it. I think its great.

After all, being part of a group like this is about sharing.... isn't it?

Based on what I hear many saying, No it's not!

From what I see, it's all about sharing unless there is some inherant value to not sharing.

 

[wolftat]

Maybe I am confused on the definition of a lurker. I always assumed that once you started making posts you could no longer be considered a lurker but maybe I am wrong. To me a "lurker" is someone on the outside looking in. They are someone who doesn't post at all. Can someone clarify this?

I think some folks have confused the harmless lurker with the poacher. I have no problem with someone that is lurking, they are doing so for their own reason and it isn't hurting anyone. The poacher on the other hand is making our designs as their own and giving no credit to the designers. I think the main problem is the poacher is just here to capitlize off of others hard work.

 

[GouletPens]

I was in Woodcraft tonight looking at the stars and stripes kits, puzzle kits, circuit board kits, corn cobs, etc. and I just thought about all the work that went into being the first to make them, and now they have been 'corporatized' with no public credit to the original creators. It's great we have artistic freedom and are willing to share with others to further the art, but it would be nice if those that create the truly unique and 'marketable' products were able to get a little credit for them. :befuddled:

 

[Rifleman1776]

I was in Woodcraft tonight looking at the stars and stripes kits, puzzle kits, circuit board kits, corn cobs, etc. and I just thought about all the work that went into being the first to make them, and now they have been 'corporatized' with no public credit to the original creators. It's great we have artistic freedom and are willing to share with others to further the art, but it would be nice if those that create the truly unique and 'marketable' products were able to get a little credit for them. :befuddled:

He gets a check. In the world of business, that is plenty of 'credit'.
You don't see publication of high praise for the factories who manufacture the kits.

BTW: As to the original question in the title of this thread. I hope so.

 

[wolftat]

He gets a check. In the world of business, that is plenty of 'credit'.
You don't see publication of high praise for the factories who manufacture the kits.

BTW: As to the original question in the title of this thread. I hope so.

I have actually been in communications with the inventor of one of the more popular pen designs that we use. We are able to buy these at Woodcraft, AS, and other places , but he isn't getting a check for them selling his design, he isn't getting any credit at all for it. That is just wrong no matter how you look at it. I know he is on this forum "lurking", and I think he has a legitimate reason to be upset.

 

[DurocShark]

Can you share which design?

 

[MesquiteMan]

I am sure he is talking about the circuit board pen.

 

[DurocShark]

Oh, gotcha.

If there wasn't a patent, I doubt the companies could be charged with theft. Unfortunately. Sometimes I wish ethics could be legally enforced.

 

[DCBluesman]

Have we stopped being a band of kindred souls with common goals and interests sharing thoughts and ideas, seeing each other as perspective customers instead?

So, am I overreacting to something that is of no consequence or does anyone else see this change in the forum?

No, it's not just you. Yes, the forum has changed. Yes, things are more mercenary. No, not all of the change has been good...or bad.

 

[MesquiteMan]

OK, for those who think things have changed for the worse, why don't you send me a PM and give us some ideas on what we should change to make it better. Should we allow folks to post anything they want without any moderation? Should we limit certain portions of the site to members only?

I do see some common areas in this thread that some think IAP has become too commercialized. I tend to agree with this somewhat. We have a lot of members whow do not participate at all on the forum other than to post in classifieds. Should we place more restrictions on the use of the classifieds?

Just talking and saying things have gone downhill without providing some ideas for improvement is just plain old complaining! Give me some ideas on making this place even better!

 

[jkeithrussell]

I like the forum just the way it is. I'm able to sort out which sellers to deal with (those who actively support the forum), and I assume that others can do the same. The bantering and bickering all looks normal to me -- I have 3 young children at home!

 

[jleiwig]

Give me some ideas on making this place even better!

Other forums often make the vendors pay to sell things on the site. That way it supports the site. I have and still am confused by the different selling forums here on IAP. Individual, business, most valued vendor. I think it should just be individuals and businesses that pay to advertise here. While not on the scale of Craft Supplies or PSI, some of our sellers make a good deal of sales from this site and it's only fair that they share a burden of some of the cost. Bigger businesses get a banner bar or some other form of advertisement for bigger contributions. Some will say that will make the little guys stop selling their items, well tough.

There used to be a guy from CSUSA that used to post on here a while back, he doesn't any more...why is that? Berea, CSUSA,PSI, and all their resellers are our main source of pen kits. This is the largest pen turning related forum on the internet, yet they have no presence here. I have always found that strange. I'm not saying they have to be bedfellows, but would it hurt to reach out to them?

Some also put a post count limit on posts before you can sell something in the individual classifieds with the idea being that you will at least be a somewhat known commodity. However, someone can have 500 posts here and still not be well known if all they post is NPGJ.

Another thing is that I think that 70 some odd forums is just way too many. I'm sure a ton of people are intimidated by it all. A better organizational system would be good.

For example you have the community area with all the forums and sub forums under that

Instead I think you should have the penturning forum with sub forums for finishing, casting & stabilization, advanced pen making...etc. they should all fall under one heading instead of being a major forum themselves.

Getting just the right breakout is hard, but I see posts all the time that don't belong where they are posted and I think it's because there are just too many simularities between some of the forums.

I could probably go on, but it's Friday and my brain is toast and ready for some weekend refreshing. :biggrin:

 

[NewLondon88]

Other forums often make the vendors pay to sell things on the site. That way it supports the site. I have and still am confused by the different selling forums here on IAP. Individual, business, most valued vendor. I think it should just be individuals and businesses that pay to advertise here.

Um.. if they're not an individual or a business, who are they?

While not on the scale of Craft Supplies or PSI, some of our sellers make a good deal of sales from this site and it's only fair that they share a burden of some of the cost.

Do you have evidence that they don't share any of the burden?
I don't know either way.. But that sounds like some sort of indictment.

Bigger businesses get a banner bar or some other form of advertisement for bigger contributions. Some will say that will make the little guys stop selling their items, well tough.

I'll have to disagree with you most strongly, here.
The 'little guys' are us. You want the big stores to strangle the little guys?
Take that route, and pretty soon slimline kits will be $25 and you won't
have any other options. The big guys can afford to strangle the little guys.
That's how they work. They can afford to lose money until their competition
is gone. They plan on it.. because once the competition is gone, there is
no 'check and balance' on pricing.. they dont' have to compete with
anyone else.

Websites like this help to keep that playing field a bit more level.

There used to be a guy from CSUSA that used to post on here a while back, he doesn't any more...why is that? Berea, CSUSA,PSI, and all their resellers are our main source of pen kits. This is the largest pen turning related forum on the internet, yet they have no presence here. I have always found that strange. I'm not saying they have to be bedfellows, but would it hurt to reach out to them?

If I were an employee of one of those companies and I posted here on
my free time, I would NEVER admit that I worked for them. Some people
don't understand the difference between an employee of a company and
someone who is spending their leisure time reading and posting here.
Some people would try to force the employee (on their time off) to address
business issues using this forum instead of using the sales/customer support
avenues provided by the company.
I know that in the past, I have had to hide my own business affiliations
online for just this reason.

Come to think of it, how do we know that this isn't why those companies
no longer show themselves here?

Just some thoughts about your post while I wait for my PR to gel..

 

[DurocShark]

I read it as, "Individuals, and businesses that pay..."

 

[NewLondon88]

I read it as, "Individuals, and businesses that pay..."

Ah.. ok, I can see that now. :redface:

 

[skiprat]

OK, for those who think things have changed for the worse, why don't you send me a PM and give us some ideas on what we should change to make it better.
I don't think anything is any worse than it has ever been before, perhaps a lot of adverts subtley inserted in non-classified ad threads. But that is no biggie if kept under control. Should we allow folks to post anything they want without any moderation?
Absolutely not. In fact there was a post recently that was quickly removed either by a mod or by the member that should have got the member permanently banned
Should we limit certain portions of the site to members only?
YES PLEASE !! Only SOYP should be visible to anyone that is not an active member. I believe membership should lapse if members don't contribute in some way. This topic was raised some time ago but was poo'pooed

I do see some common areas in this thread that some think IAP has become too commercialized. I tend to agree with this somewhat. We have a lot of members whow do not participate at all on the forum other than to post in classifieds. Should we place more restrictions on the use of the classifieds?
We all love bargains but I think the 'big boys' should contribute financially to the site as well as things like prize donations etc. I know some do.

Just talking and saying things have gone downhill without providing some ideas for improvement is just plain old complaining! Give me some ideas on making this place even better!

I don't think anyone could ever accuse me of not sharing either here or privately. But I really don't like that just anyone ( lurkers) can come here and read everything whether in posts or in the tutorials in the archives without any offer of thanks or participation.
I have seen it written that some newbies don't post because they believe they have got nothing to offer. This is simply not true. There are dozens of things they could contribute, even if it was just letting us know when a particular vendor was having a special offer etc. Hell, they could just post the latest joke in CC to be part of the family.
Do you remember that case where some lady that rarely posted came in and said she needed loads of free stuff?? She gave a dodgy pic of some apparent damage to her house. She got loads of stuff from our members and I don't believe she has been seen since. This was the point where I changed, not the IAP. After this, I would just ignore questions like 'how do you do that?' from people that I never knew existed before.

Ok, that was my tuppence worth:biggrin:

 

[NewLondon88]

I don't think anyone could ever accuse me of not sharing either here or privately.

Abso-bloody-lutely not.

Ok, that was my tuppence worth:biggrin:

Don't go throwing your fake money around here.. :tongue:

 

[ericw95]

I haven't been as active lately because I am going back to school pursuing 2 Masters degrees. I have enjoyed being a part of the forum. Thank you to those that have shared their experiences with us.

I've always heard that what goes around comes around and I am sure the forum will do the same.

Eric

 

[jleiwig]

Um.. if they're not an individual or a business, who are they?



Do you have evidence that they don't share any of the burden?
I don't know either way.. But that sounds like some sort of indictment.



I'll have to disagree with you most strongly, here.
The 'little guys' are us. You want the big stores to strangle the little guys?
Take that route, and pretty soon slimline kits will be $25 and you won't
have any other options. The big guys can afford to strangle the little guys.
That's how they work. They can afford to lose money until their competition is gone. They plan on it.. because once the competition is gone, there is no 'check and balance' on pricing.. they dont' have to compete with anyone else.

Websites like this help to keep that playing field a bit more level.



If I were an employee of one of those companies and I posted here on
my free time, I would NEVER admit that I worked for them. Some people
don't understand the difference between an employee of a company and
someone who is spending their leisure time reading and posting here.
Some people would try to force the employee (on their time off) to addressbusiness issues using this forum instead of using the sales/customer support avenues provided by the company.
I know that in the past, I have had to hide my own business affiliations
online for just this reason.

Come to think of it, how do we know that this isn't why those companies
no longer show themselves here?

Just some thoughts about your post while I wait for my PR to gel..

Well..I found nothing about them having to pay to be MVV. Just that they are "invited"

 

[snyiper]

I am guilty as I am a lurker, I have a great interest in pen making but have yet to turn my first one or even get everything I need. I lurk simply because I dont know enough to be helpful yet. I am gathering information so I can purchase the right stuff the first time. I have most of the tools needed to get started and even made a few jigs for pen turning thanks to the information here. This is simply a hobby for me I dont intend to do anything but make each pen as perfect as it can be one at a time. Im not sure how bad the pen bug will bite but with what I have read there is plenty to perfect before I get to more complicated patterns. I hope the Lurker still is welcome here as I feel it is better to be quiet and learn than to answer even one thing wrong. I thank everyone for all the advice and tips provided in these pages it has been a real asset to the novice turner like myself if one just takes the time to read.

 

[wdcav1952]

Glen,

Lurkers are certainly welcome here at the IAP. It does help if you (as you just did) and others who prefer to merely read make an occasional post. This shows that you wish to remain an active member.

 

[ldb2000]

I am guilty as I am a lurker, I have a great interest in pen making but have yet to turn my first one or even get everything I need. I lurk simply because I dont know enough to be helpful yet. I am gathering information so I can purchase the right stuff the first time. I have most of the tools needed to get started and even made a few jigs for pen turning thanks to the information here. This is simply a hobby for me I dont intend to do anything but make each pen as perfect as it can be one at a time. Im not sure how bad the pen bug will bite but with what I have read there is plenty to perfect before I get to more complicated patterns. I hope the Lurker still is welcome here as I feel it is better to be quiet and learn than to answer even one thing wrong. I thank everyone for all the advice and tips provided in these pages it has been a real asset to the novice turner like myself if one just takes the time to read.

I hear this one all the time here and couldn't disagree more with the statement that you have nothing to offer . Do you have any other hobbies ? do you have a job and skills related to that job ? we all have talents that could be used here even if it's just telling a joke once and awhile . I have a friend who is into the model train hobby and have learned things from him that can be applied to penmaking , and another friend that don't know which end of a slimline to write with but is a woodworker by trade and he can tell a type of wood by smell (lol) .
All I'm trying to say is that everyone has real world experiences and some of that knowledge might be useful to someone here . You can lurk if you want but your knowledge might just help someone here .
Don't be afraid to post just because you have never made a pen .
Even just say "Hi" , we don't bite , well ...... most of us don't :biggrin:

 

[NewLondon88]

I hope the Lurker still is welcome here as I feel it is better to be quiet and learn than to answer even one thing wrong.

I don't know that anyone ever learned anything by always being right.
This is fortunate for me, since I am learning so much! :biggrin: And don't let
that stop you from contributing.. there's often many ways to do things ,
and just by mentioning your way of trying something it might inspire someone
else to try something they didn't think of. Sometimes there's no right or
wrong, but even when there is .. it helps to bring it out in the open so that
it can be discussed. There's no shame in being wrong, either. If it were all
so 'black and white' all the time, it would all be a 'no-brainer', one manual
would be written, one pen would be produced and the whole matter would
be closed.

Then, we'd all have to get new hobbies.

Lurkers are always welcome.. I think the original lurker quote was about
the pirates who lurk, see a new idea, run off someplace else with it and
claim it as their own.. and then try to sell it back to us. That sucks..
but that doesn't mean lurkers aren't welcome. I'd bet that most of us
started out as lurkers here or somewhere else.

 

[Rollerbob]

Glen, just looked at your bio, yup you belong here!!:wink:

 

[LandfillLumber]

I think some of it has to do with the economy the way it is.Many of us are working twice as hard to make the same cash as two years ago.That's what it is with me busy,busy,busy,with my hands in a million things.I do try and help when i know hat I'm talking about,that is not that often when it comes to turning its self.Seems like it used to be more tight knit then we see today,maybe just a low in the swing of life.Victor

 

[Bree]

As Heraclitus said... Everything flows and nothing stays fixed. Everything flows and nothing abides.

Stick around... see what will happen next! :biggrin:

 

[snyiper]

Well thank you all, Ill be as productive as I can I am sure Ill be all in it once I figure out what Im doing. I am a liscensed plumber by trade so I can help with stuff to do with pipe fittings and such. In fact I do have a members pressure pot lid here fixing it up for use. Ill try to post a pic of it assembled. this is the test fit and approval before I tape and dope it.