MesquiteMan
Retired Head Moderator
Nananananana, I beat you to it, Ed!
IAP Forum Etiquette
- Thread starter jeff
- Start date
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bruce119
Member
That is a bit of a strong statement. Heck most of the stuff offered here known media. Now yes some one that joins just to sell, I think there my be a few that are major sellers, and do not contribute to the forum. Such as helping others sharing techniques and such then they probably should be dealt with. But the classifieds here are important where else can someone get some of the things offered here that truly one of a kind art for artist.
Now onto the comment I was going to make about posting. It should be kept to the original question by the original poster all too often I see hijacking and the thread going astray or "I don't want to hijack this thread" Well then just start a new thread to ask your question. That is my input to the original question no hijacking keep it on topic with the original post.
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ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
Congratulations!!!!!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
Don't erase my post though, don't want to slip back to 12811---that was so........................ seconds ago!!!
Jmhoff10500
Member
I also think if we were to instate a banning of those who take ideas, it would cause alot more problems because 80% of the recent disputes over this have just faded away cause noone knows exactly who originally came up with the idea, and almost everyone thinks they did...
MesquiteMan
Retired Head Moderator
No one is going to get banned for taking ideas. We are NOT going to go there.
keithkarl2007
Member
So if I were a guest who doesn't turn pens and seen someone selling some cool blanks and decided, heck, I could make them and charge a buck less, I could go ahead copy their idea and then proceed to sell it in the classifieds along side theirs. Brilliant!!!! Gonna get me all the casting stuff i need.
Jmhoff10500
Member
I think it is just a difficult situation, especially for a friendly forum and friendly moderators... I have heard the stress this causes people and i know it would suck...
So if I were a guest who doesn't turn pens and seen someone selling some cool blanks and decided, heck, I could make them and charge a buck less, I could go ahead copy their idea and then proceed to sell it in the classifieds along side theirs. Brilliant!!!! Gonna get me all the casting stuff i need.
MesquiteMan
Retired Head Moderator
So if I were a guest who doesn't turn pens and seen someone selling some cool blanks and decided, heck, I could make them and charge a buck less, I could go ahead copy their idea and then proceed to sell it in the classifieds along side theirs. Brilliant!!!! Gonna get me all the casting stuff i need.
Unfortunately, yes. We certainly don't condone this but it is not up to IAP to try to enforce a certain set of personal ethics. And of course, the scenario you describe above is why many have stopped sharing or showing new ideas, unfortunately. The practice stinks, IMO, but we really don't want to go there by policy.
keithkarl2007
Member
But these people are just out to make a quick buck. Sure its another source of penturning material at possibly a cheaper cost, but wouldn't you rather purchase from a member who contributes to the forum regularly in different threads and not someone who just sits in the classifieds making a profit on someone elses hard work.
MesquiteMan
Retired Head Moderator
Absolutely!
Jmhoff10500
Member
Then i guess its up to the buyers to buy from those more integrated into IAP, then again, those newer ones might have good ideas and have a blank that might fit you more... From here its all just opinions and preferences...
Timbo
Member
I prefer to keep discussions of religion and politics out of this forum...I don't come here for that. More importantly...don't send me unsolicited communications in any form on these subjects, or any other subject not related to pen making or woodworking in general (yes this did happen to me more than once).
keithkarl2007
Member
So if I were a guest who doesn't turn pens and seen someone selling some cool blanks and decided, heck, I could make them and charge a buck less, I could go ahead copy their idea and then proceed to sell it in the classifieds along side theirs. Brilliant!!!! Gonna get me all the casting stuff i need.
Unfortunately, yes. We certainly don't condone this but it is not up to IAP to try to enforce a certain set of personal ethics. And of course, the scenario you describe above is why many have stopped sharing or showing new ideas, unfortunately. The practice stinks, IMO, but we really don't want to go there by policy.
Well as soon as someones idea is copied and posted in the classifieds by someone else, could their post not be removed? I give up, its just wrong no matter how you look at it. I could never take someones idea and sell it as my own. I seen one of Jeffs blanks on Exotic's and Toni's and thought to myself if i purchase them I can say they are crafted from well known talented people who deserve the credit for their hard work. I'd never claim it as my own and I'd be honoured to mention them if the occasion arose.
keithkarl2007
Member
Everyone to their own i guess. I would sooner give my money to someone who has taken the time to show me the ropes, pass on whatever knowledge they learned along the way and have the same respect for me as I have for them. I share my ideas freely on the forum. I posted the thread that started all the pendant fiasco and look how far that went. I just wonder if anyone has claimed "Oh i came up with that".
bruce119
Member
DurocShark
Member
Yikes! 10 pages!
Jeff, I don't envy you the work you have ahead of you...
:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
Jeff, I don't envy you the work you have ahead of you...
:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
alphageek
Former Moderator
Could there post be removed? Sure it COULD... and if it breaks the TOS or AUP, it would... however as was stated earlier, we can't go there. The mods are not copyright police. And unfortunately most of this isn't even as clear as copyright. I'll use Toni as an example ... Should we remove posts where she is selling PC blanks? She isn't the first person to post polymer pens here!
Another good example... Should we have stopped Richard from selling his pendant backing plates because someone else (you or otherwise) posted pendants first? I would hope that even you would say no to that one.
Just trying to show you a little bit why we can't stop people from selling things .. they say theres two sides to every story. I think thats only true if there is 2 people involved! Hopefully this gives some insight into how grey this is. Where does the "copy" line end and the "next innovation" line begin?
IPD_Mrs
Member
Another contribution to forum etiquette....
We have rules regulating where we as vendors can post "advertisements" and in fact there are forums just for us to use for this purpose. All forms of advertisement, including comments about ones own products should be limited to those forums or made through use of private message to a member IF it is appropriate to do so. This should also include vendors policies, other business issues - etc. Sneaky or veiled promotions of ones website, sales or products should be removed by mods and the vendor asked to place their comments in appropriate places.
With regards several comments made to possibly remove the PM system . . we would not be in favor of doing so. The PM system is regulated according to the same rules as posts on the forums and any problems that are reported to Jeff are handled appropriately by him (even though you may not always get the answer you think you should Jeff has always been FAIR to everyone long as we have known him.) The PM system plays an important role in our mini society here when used politely. When it's not used appropriately it is up to the person who is offended to seek assistance in order to make sure that the rules are enforced as the should be.
We have been on the receiving end of negative PMs so we can speak to this from both sides of the fence (the negativity was very early on in our being a part of IAP and a difference of opinion / personality brought on the PM by a longer term member so it was much the same as some of you have described). Still, that having been said the value that MANY gain from the use of this system should not be destroyed by a small minority of individuals who seem to not know how to play nice at times.
We have rules regulating where we as vendors can post "advertisements" and in fact there are forums just for us to use for this purpose. All forms of advertisement, including comments about ones own products should be limited to those forums or made through use of private message to a member IF it is appropriate to do so. This should also include vendors policies, other business issues - etc. Sneaky or veiled promotions of ones website, sales or products should be removed by mods and the vendor asked to place their comments in appropriate places.
With regards several comments made to possibly remove the PM system . . we would not be in favor of doing so. The PM system is regulated according to the same rules as posts on the forums and any problems that are reported to Jeff are handled appropriately by him (even though you may not always get the answer you think you should Jeff has always been FAIR to everyone long as we have known him.) The PM system plays an important role in our mini society here when used politely. When it's not used appropriately it is up to the person who is offended to seek assistance in order to make sure that the rules are enforced as the should be.
We have been on the receiving end of negative PMs so we can speak to this from both sides of the fence (the negativity was very early on in our being a part of IAP and a difference of opinion / personality brought on the PM by a longer term member so it was much the same as some of you have described). Still, that having been said the value that MANY gain from the use of this system should not be destroyed by a small minority of individuals who seem to not know how to play nice at times.
Russianwolf
Member
I would like to suggest the Mods (since we now have more than 1, 2 if you count Jeff), when deciding whether a thread needs to be locked or deleted, move the thread to a moderator only section (only they can view it) and discuss among themselves whether it should be locked or delete. I know other forums using this software do this.
If they decide that no action is needed, they can then move it back to the public forum. Or if action is needed, that action can be taken.
I just think it should be the team that decides, not one person. The one person would just be making the decision to bring it to the team.
Now individual posts in a thread would still be done as they are.
If they decide that no action is needed, they can then move it back to the public forum. Or if action is needed, that action can be taken.
I just think it should be the team that decides, not one person. The one person would just be making the decision to bring it to the team.
Now individual posts in a thread would still be done as they are.
MesquiteMan
Retired Head Moderator
That is how we are doing it, Mike, except we temporarily delete the thread, discuss, then undelete if necessary. ALL moderation activities are discussed in the moderator forum before final action is taken. Even individual posts are thoroughly discussed.
IPD_Mrs
Member
[/quote]
Well as soon as someones idea is copied and posted in the classifieds by someone else, could their post not be removed? I give up, its just wrong no matter how you look at it. I could never take someones idea and sell it as my own. I seen one of Jeffs blanks on Exotic's and Toni's and thought to myself if i purchase them I can say they are crafted from well known talented people who deserve the credit for their hard work. I'd never claim it as my own and I'd be honoured to mention them if the occasion arose.[/quote]
I have the great fortune to have what I consider a rare treasure (a custom crafted Eagle feather out of black ebony and aluminum with the aluminum feathers being so thin that it is truly delicate and beautiful) I have been asked so many times "did you make that?" Now technically I could say that my husband did since he "technically" turned the blank and put the pen together. But I'm with you on this, and I ALWAYS tell the person asking me about my beautiful pen and the very talented man who created it (made the blank) and then I explain how the creation I was gifted ended up being made into the pen (turned) by my husband. Both of those things are true, it's just the integrity of which you choose to represent yourself. I personally think it is more honest and ethical to let people know when you are making a pen out of a blank that you are not personally creating - not only is it the right thing to do but it will save you from a real ugly situation if you try to make a pen - blow it out and your creator can't get you another one in the time frame you need it ... just something for those who might claim things as their own to think about.
Well as soon as someones idea is copied and posted in the classifieds by someone else, could their post not be removed? I give up, its just wrong no matter how you look at it. I could never take someones idea and sell it as my own. I seen one of Jeffs blanks on Exotic's and Toni's and thought to myself if i purchase them I can say they are crafted from well known talented people who deserve the credit for their hard work. I'd never claim it as my own and I'd be honoured to mention them if the occasion arose.[/quote]
I have the great fortune to have what I consider a rare treasure (a custom crafted Eagle feather out of black ebony and aluminum with the aluminum feathers being so thin that it is truly delicate and beautiful) I have been asked so many times "did you make that?" Now technically I could say that my husband did since he "technically" turned the blank and put the pen together. But I'm with you on this, and I ALWAYS tell the person asking me about my beautiful pen and the very talented man who created it (made the blank) and then I explain how the creation I was gifted ended up being made into the pen (turned) by my husband. Both of those things are true, it's just the integrity of which you choose to represent yourself. I personally think it is more honest and ethical to let people know when you are making a pen out of a blank that you are not personally creating - not only is it the right thing to do but it will save you from a real ugly situation if you try to make a pen - blow it out and your creator can't get you another one in the time frame you need it ... just something for those who might claim things as their own to think about.
keithkarl2007
Member
Of course I would say no to that. I am glad pendants have went as far as they have and some new material and tooling to make it more enjoyable. After it took off here I never turned any of them myself, I felt they just took off a picked up momentum quickly.
I don't know how you came up with Toni's work as an example, her work can't be compared to anyone's. She may not have been the first person to use PC but she was the first to come up with her unique designs.
I don't know how you came up with Toni's work as an example, her work can't be compared to anyone's. She may not have been the first person to use PC but she was the first to come up with her unique designs.
You are not going to be successful at regulating ettiquette any more than government can legislate ethics. For each rule you make, there will be a new violation, either perceived or actual.
Now, you can try to regulate actions on the forum. Governments make laws to regulate actions all the time. And then we end up needing police, court systems, appeals processes, etc.
The fact of the matter is, this is an open forum. There will be harsh posts. There are harsh members. There will be hostile posts. There are hostile members. There will be posts that violate the TOS. Some members don't care if their posts get deleted as long as they get to voice an opinion.
Banning members? Good luck. Anyone can register as often as they like. Banning IP addresses. I've got a list of 50,000 proxy sites from which I can enter the forum.
Self regulation may work, but only if we ignore what is offensive. Remember, it's simply typed words on a screen. We give them life by giving them attention. If the words add value, acknowledge them. If the words do not add value, ignore them.
Please feel free to ignore this, and any, of my posts.
Now, you can try to regulate actions on the forum. Governments make laws to regulate actions all the time. And then we end up needing police, court systems, appeals processes, etc.
The fact of the matter is, this is an open forum. There will be harsh posts. There are harsh members. There will be hostile posts. There are hostile members. There will be posts that violate the TOS. Some members don't care if their posts get deleted as long as they get to voice an opinion.
Banning members? Good luck. Anyone can register as often as they like. Banning IP addresses. I've got a list of 50,000 proxy sites from which I can enter the forum.
Self regulation may work, but only if we ignore what is offensive. Remember, it's simply typed words on a screen. We give them life by giving them attention. If the words add value, acknowledge them. If the words do not add value, ignore them.
Please feel free to ignore this, and any, of my posts.
keithkarl2007
Member
Your right, we only end up fueling the flames here and should prevent ourselves from replying to harsh posts, pms or emails in the same tone that they have been sent.
Gary Max
Member
Heck--- I am getting concerned about being over maderated----more rules = less freedom.
This from a member who has always thought a Good Neigbor Policy was a good ideal.
This from a member who has always thought a Good Neigbor Policy was a good ideal.
No
No it means we should be able to choose not to receive PMs and emails from the site.
Spats139
Member
DCBluesman has pretty much nailed it. There will always be posts that express opinions that you may feel very strongly about, but no one can make you feel anything. Sure, your immediate gut response might be anger, insult, ridicule, pride, joy, or whatever; but, from the moment you realize how you initially reacted, the choice to continue to feel that way is all up to you. If you feel good about it, that's great; if not, ignore it and move on.
ctubbs
Member
A thing that I try to do, but fail at misrabley, is try to think we are all sitting aroung a nice table, each armed with a weapon of choice. Then if I am stupid enough to really insult my neighbor, I have a good chance of being blown away. All to often, my allagator mouth overloads my hummingbird ass and I hurt someones feelings. We all were, or should have been, taught manners as children. If we remember what Mom and Granny taught us at the end of her wooden spoon, then maybe, just maybe, we can go and play nice. My .02.
Charles
PS, Jeff, thank you for doing all the hard work to operate this site and give us a place to carry on this discussion.
Charles
PS, Jeff, thank you for doing all the hard work to operate this site and give us a place to carry on this discussion.
Thanks
It looks like the option I was proposing already exists...Thanks for pointing it out.
GaryMGg
Member
Cut off at the pass! :biggrin:
Hi Doc, long time no see. Hope the world is wonderful up your way.
Always a pleasure to see you post and know you are well.
glycerine
Member
Apparently profanity isn't against the rules. I wish it were. I have reported language before and was told that this site follows the "prime time rule". If it can be said on "prime time" television, then it's ok for this site... But at the same time, the TOS and/or AUP says not to use vulgar or offensive language, so I have yet to figure out where the line is actually drawn. This is something that I would like to see clarified in the "rule book"...
GaryMGg
Member
Andrew,
I'd like to nit-pick your response #19 in this thread.
I'll admit this: unless I know the person and they know me well, I'm more or less going to follow the advice you posted.
However, it's not what I want when I ask for someone to critique my work.
When I ask for criticism in a posting, I want real criticism right down to whether or not someone likes the design.
I personally don't want the reply sugar-coated. I don't want to be molly-coddled.
That's not to suggest their reply should be rude, mean, or a personal attack.
However, I have no problem if they "attack" the product and tear it to shreds.
Maybe they see what I refuse to see and I'll learn what I came here to learn.
Too often, straight-forward advice and criticism is interpreted as an attack on the maker.
In almost all cases, it isn't but it's more work to post something with clear, concise meaning than many make the time to do.
I believe many threads go south for that reason.
GaryMGg
Member
Tony,
I interpreted George's post as an illustration of how some individual's believe they have an entitlement to someone else's time and effort.
In my opinion, the most salient portions of George's original post are elided in the portion quoted above.
We all need to be ever mindful that someone may have donated their time to respond to us and
a follow-up might not be possible due to new restrictions on our time and/or capacity.
Respectfully,
Gary
I interpreted George's post as an illustration of how some individual's believe they have an entitlement to someone else's time and effort.
In my opinion, the most salient portions of George's original post are elided in the portion quoted above.
We all need to be ever mindful that someone may have donated their time to respond to us and
a follow-up might not be possible due to new restrictions on our time and/or capacity.
Respectfully,
Gary
MesquiteMan
Retired Head Moderator
Now you are getting into a whole new philosophical debate...what is profanity? Darn? Dang? Damn? Shoot? That is one that is EXTREMELY hard to enforce. What is the difference between Darn and Damn? Just one letter but the meaning is exactly the same.
A line has been drawn as you state above. Our policy is Prime Time. If it is acceptable for prime time Television, then it is fine here.
More info can be found here:
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/obscene.html
DurocShark
Member
Prime Time in which country?
:wink:
I've watched many forums swing from extreme to extreme. No efforts will ever be 100% successful. My recommendation is to use common sense, set the tone, and work *with* the users of the forum to improve things. Don't dictate. (Not saying I've seen any dictatorial attitudes here. You guys have been great.)
90% of the burden HAS to be on the users. We need to be responsible for our own actions. The mods can't do it for us.
:wink:
I've watched many forums swing from extreme to extreme. No efforts will ever be 100% successful. My recommendation is to use common sense, set the tone, and work *with* the users of the forum to improve things. Don't dictate. (Not saying I've seen any dictatorial attitudes here. You guys have been great.)
90% of the burden HAS to be on the users. We need to be responsible for our own actions. The mods can't do it for us.
mbroberg
IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
Regarding profanity, here is a rule I would like to see followed. If you believe that the only way you can write a word on this forum is to attempt to disguise it by changing some of the letters to symbols, or by leaving blanks where letters belong, don't write the word. Contrary to the belief of some, you can't sanitize a word by replacing some letters with symbols. It is still read as the original word, it still has the same meaning as the original word, so if you are not comfortable with spelling out the word then the word is not appropriate and should not be used.
GaryMGg
Member
Mike,
Methinks Curtis' reply is superior because in matters such as these y'all need to Operationally Define what it is we must abide by.
"if you are not comfortable with spelling out the word then the word is not appropriate and should not be used" still leaves it up to the individual whereas "If it is acceptable for prime time Television, then it is fine here" follows a proscribed set of rules, regulations and requirements.
To continue with the original purpose of the thread, I'd like to see all iconic forms of communication (aka smilies) banned EXCEPT the cheshire cat grin :biggrin:
I can't count the number of times someone has used a smilie rather than making the time to write what they mean and, in the process, confusing
the issue rather than clearing the air.
It takes time, effort, and energy to write clearly and communicate what's on one's mind.
If someone isn't willing to do it, maybe they should consider not posting until they can clearly translate their thoughts into words?
I know it ain't gonna happen, but I can dream, can't I?!? :biggrin::biggrin:
Methinks Curtis' reply is superior because in matters such as these y'all need to Operationally Define what it is we must abide by.
"if you are not comfortable with spelling out the word then the word is not appropriate and should not be used" still leaves it up to the individual whereas "If it is acceptable for prime time Television, then it is fine here" follows a proscribed set of rules, regulations and requirements.
To continue with the original purpose of the thread, I'd like to see all iconic forms of communication (aka smilies) banned EXCEPT the cheshire cat grin :biggrin:
I can't count the number of times someone has used a smilie rather than making the time to write what they mean and, in the process, confusing
the issue rather than clearing the air.
It takes time, effort, and energy to write clearly and communicate what's on one's mind.
If someone isn't willing to do it, maybe they should consider not posting until they can clearly translate their thoughts into words?
I know it ain't gonna happen, but I can dream, can't I?!? :biggrin::biggrin:
traderdon55
Member
I have to agree with Mike on this. I have read studies that say 55% of people can read a sentence where the letters in the words are jumbled as long as the first and last letter of the words are in the right place. As far as disageements with a group this large people are going to disagree. I think everyone should just state their opinion and then let it go and not get into sending PMs just because you don't agree with someone. I guess I have been lucky because the only PMs I have recieved about anything I posted was from people that agreed with me but didn't want to post their opinion in an open forum. On the rare occasions I post I will continue to speak my mind and if you agree with me that is great and if you don't that is great too. If we could all take that attitude and realize everybody has different opinions things would go much better although I will be the first to admit I can't honestly say I am happy whem someone disagrees with me. There have been a couple of occasions and the past where someone has posted a disagreement with me and I have turned around and responded right back at them and later realized I should have let it drop as I had already given my opinion and there was no reason to respond to them for disagreeing with me. If everyone would just treat posting on the forums as if they were sitting in the room with the people they are posting to most of the threads would never go downhill because everyone I have met that are on IAP are a great bunch of people. I know in addition to our ArkLaTex chapter I have attended the North Texas chapter, the SW Missouri chapter, and the Michigan chapter and everybody has treated me like an old friend when I attended their meetings. If everbody is this friendly in person we can't go wrong by just pretending we are sitting in the room with the people we are posting to.
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bruce119
Member
Some pepole just ant that good at typeing the smilys defently add personality. And I am not going to use the spell check to shoe I am not all that good at typing :redface: a lot better then I used to be :biggrin:
What DO think that pepole should do and I do everytime but this one post is take the time to PREVIEW and read your post to yourself before you post.
I don't know how many times I changed a post because I did not like it after I read it.
My thoughts
the smilys defently add personality. And I am not going to use the spell check to shoe I am not all that good at typing :redface: a lot better then I used to be :biggrin:What DO think that pepole should do and I do everytime but this one post is take the time to PREVIEW and read your post to yourself before you post.
I don't know how many times I changed a post because I did not like it after I read it.
My thoughts
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keithkarl2007
Member
Can we just let all this crap lie before we lose more valuable members? Those who are sending vile posts whether through a thread, a pm or email know who they are.