IAP Forum Etiquette

[Padre]

Don't use PM or Email for attacks, mud-slinging or negativity. A good way to gauge this is if you would be embarrassed by having your PM posted publicly, don't send it at all.

 

[soligen]

1 - Don't hound someone for a tutorial the instant they post a pen design you've never seen before. Let them enjoy some praise before you beg for step by step instructions on how to duplicate their work. They know you want to make one, and they'll tell you how when they get a chance.

Along these lines, I think it needs to be made clear which are "learning/sharing" forums and which are "show-off" forums. I see things posted to the castin or advanced forums and it is obvious the posted has no intention of sharing his/her process. Just showing off. I have no problem with a person not wanting to share "trade secrets", but if you post to a learning forum, you should be prepared to comment on the process you use - otherwise use SYOP or such.

Also, if you dont want a design copied, dont post it. I think the TOS should say that if you post a pen design, then others are allowed to copy it.

 

[ed4copies]

Chip,

I have often wondered about removing the PM and email functions and demanding that all comments be public.

I am fortunate, in five years of membership (I think), I have received a small handful of negative emails. But, some other, more innovative members say they get a dozen or more chastizing them.

When coming to the IAP ceases being fun, people leave.

When you get enough PM's from members who complain, you just don't want to come to the forum for more abuse. (I have experienced this, on one occasion, so I do understand the complaint)

Eliminating email (or perhaps allowing ONE member to make public email between two members) could tone down the "nastiness"???

 

[JimB]

Jim,

As a vendor, I believe we are made better by seeing the "complaints" of our customers. Should you try to contact the vendor first??? Of course!!!

But, as you know I am pretty active on IAP, so it's a great place to communicate with me. And, if you want to complain, I SHOULD have a reasonable explanation OR I should be prepared to CHANGE the practice that the customer is unhappy with (terrible grammar).

And, it is only fair that a community know that some vendors will ship immediately---others will take a week to process the order. This is merely stating a fact that each of the IAP members SHOULD know.

So, be careful how much you limit members' ability to complain. Smart vendors (which I HOPE we are) LEARN from their customers' complaints. We have realized we have an email problem, primarily through communications we have received here.

Maybe each vendor can have their own policy regarding this???? I'd hate to lose the feedback we have gotten in the few threads criticizing our actions.

I agree 100%. I didn't mean to imply that we shouldn't discuss vendors on here only that we should be responsible with what we say and that we are careful not to destroy a vendor's reputation before we have given them a chance to resolve any issues.

I think we are really saying the same thing.

 

[Chasper]

I agree with most, but not all, of the points that have been made in this thread. And not pointing out everything I disagree with is my contribution to this thread and in my opinion it is a good rule to follow.

It isn't necessary to point out everything that you disagree with, just as it isn't necessary to compliment photo post that appears in SOYP. There are many times when the polite thing to do is to not say or do anything.

 

[phillywood]

Although its been covered in other ways but not specifically expressed. It should be pointed out that there are minors that are members here.

Also, like to see that how much are our responsibilties when it comes to minors and giving them advise for messing around chemicals and heavy machineries when we don't even know if they have their parent or guardian'c consent to be online and getting this kind of advises. After all some of the chemicals or tools we use can hrm them if they are not handled correctly. this happened during the summer and concerned me with soem of the chemicals that were discussed during the posts. Or playing with pressure pots that can be dangerous if modified as we do for our specific use. And, if something happens to these youngsters then who is going to give an answer.

 

[DocStram]

If I was still an active member, I might be in favor of eliminating the pm and email functions.

I find it interesting that one of the people complaining about receiving nasty pms is one of the same people who wrote a particularly distasteful pm to me.

Maybe we all need to do a little introspection.

 

[Phunky_2003]

Jim,

As a vendor, I believe we are made better by seeing the "complaints" of our customers. Should you try to contact the vendor first??? Of course!!!

But, as you know I am pretty active on IAP, so it's a great place to communicate with me. And, if you want to complain, I SHOULD have a reasonable explanation OR I should be prepared to CHANGE the practice that the customer is unhappy with (terrible grammar).

And, it is only fair that a community know that some vendors will ship immediately---others will take a week to process the order. This is merely stating a fact that each of the IAP members SHOULD know.

So, be careful how much you limit members' ability to complain. Smart vendors (which I HOPE we are) LEARN from their customers' complaints. We have realized we have an email problem, primarily through communications we have received here.

Maybe each vendor can have their own policy regarding this???? I'd hate to lose the feedback we have gotten in the few threads criticizing our actions.

I agree 100%. I didn't mean to imply that we shouldn't discuss vendors on here only that we should be responsible with what we say and that we are careful not to destroy a vendor's reputation before we have given them a chance to resolve any issues.

I think we are really saying the same thing.

I am reading what you two are getting at and agree. Constructive critism and discussions about vendors help all parties involved and parties that may get involved later. Especially where those vendors are active members and get involved with the discussions. I would have never ordered from Exotics without some of the feedback from this site. I've just always prefered going with places I knew.

However, I dont think it is appropriate to come to the forum and complain about anyones polices. It is their policy and they have it for a reason whether you agree with it or not. I've seen many vendors get trashed for their shipping policy. It is stated on their site somewhere what their policy is, dont come here and bash it after you order from them. If you dont agree with it, then nobody is making you order from them.

 

[alphageek]

Adding a thought to what Ed said, I think that so many problems stem from the use of PM's that they should have their own "rules of useage"!

It may come as a shock to some but there are many "invisible groups" within the IAP membership where members use PM's to discuss thoughts, hold private "group buys" and the like and believe it or not.... even use their numbers to privately blitz someone via PM's once they have a disagreement with another member.

An example (I'll use John Doe and me as hypothetical members)....... John Doe PM's me asking how to thread some parts on a kitless pen. I suggest he visit a very in-depth thread that another member has going on, which has a lot of time spent explaining the use of taps and that he should get all of his questions answered.

Well, John Doe didn't appreciate the way I was trying to help him so he replied spelling out EXACTLY what he wanted me to give him SPECIFIC answers to and his second PM didn't have that friendly tone anymore.

I simply replied saying I was pretty busy and didn't have the time to spend on a detailed laundry list and suggested he start his own thread asking the same questions. That reply got me a very nasty reply saying that I didn't give a crap about helping anyone, and went on with some other choice words and accusations. I also heard from a few of his "friends" as they also felt compelled to echo his feelings and one even suggested the forum would be a better place without the likes of me if I couldn't answer "a simple question".

That said....... we can come up with a thousand guidelines for etiquette but untill we realize there are some who feel the rules don't apply to them or their will be no real consequences to ignoring the guidelines, we haven't gained an inch.

Just a thought!

George as a moderator, I am a bit abhorred by this. Some of what you said is perfectly acceptable (if a group of friends want to do a private group buy... nothing bad there).

However most of the rest of that is downright bad and some of it is completely against policies. A "blitz" by PM is completely unacceptable and I ask ANYONE that has this happen to them report it.

The rules DO apply... if there is broken rules, Please report them!

 

[Phunky_2003]

Do they have super secret handshakes and all that too? I wanna join...... I never been a part of a group with a super secret handshake..... lol.

 

[Padre]

Chip,

I have often wondered about removing the PM and email functions and demanding that all comments be public.

I am fortunate, in five years of membership (I think), I have received a small handful of negative emails. But, some other, more innovative members say they get a dozen or more chastizing them.

When coming to the IAP ceases being fun, people leave.

When you get enough PM's from members who complain, you just don't want to come to the forum for more abuse. (I have experienced this, on one occasion, so I do understand the complaint)

Eliminating email (or perhaps allowing ONE member to make public email between two members) could tone down the "nastiness"???

I think there is a place for PM and email, but not when used to bully someone, do a 'pile-on' as George mentioned, and just to be really hurtful. I have never received a negative PM. If I had, maybe I would feel differently.

But, I have used PM to personally thank and/or compliment someone, to tell others that I am praying for them (I am a priest after all), or to just ask a question or two on a specific topic. If I don't hear back, so be it. If I do, it's a bonus!

Since I use the PM/Email function for what I shall term as "good" uses, I think it does serve a purpose.

But again I say, one of the 'filters' people should use in the PM/Email function is that if you would be embarrassed by the post being made public, don't send it.

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

George, been there , bought the tee shirt. Not that I'm in the same class as some here as to knowledge but I can't tell you how many times I've been told I'm not sharing in the respect of sharing what shows I do. I always answer that it's taken me a lot of work and time convincing jurist that what I (we) do is art and as it is a business for me and I don't share what shows I'm applying to. Almost every time the response is to the effect "the IAP is for sharing and if you don't want to share what are you doing here". I received these as both emails and PM's. Glad to know that we can forward these to the mods.

 

[MesquiteMan]

You sure as heck don't want to be a moderator if you don't like getting nastygrams! I have had enough for every member on this forum over the years!

 

[ed4copies]

Glad to know that we can forward these to the mods. __________________

Can we? or is this against the TOS?

When you have been told a group of members is circulating an email disparaging your activities on the IAP, what recourse is there?

 

[jttheclockman]

PM's and emailings are a necessary part of any forum and you all should know that. Privacy is an important part of the internet quorum. It must be respected but also used as intended. I have gotten my share of disgruntled pm's and emails and I am sure I will again. ( I almost started telling a troubling story that happened to me but will refrain).

I have had ongoing pm's with members who have helped me and those who I have helped them. Not everything needs to be seen in print by everyone. Alot would be very boring to others. No need to waste bandwidth like that.

My point is leave PM's alone. They do not need fixing. Be careful what you ask for.

 

[Smitty37]

I agree...to a point

I would like to see something about not flaming vendors, big or small. I've seen a number of posts where the person has not even contacted the vendor to try to resolve an issue but feel it is OK to get on here and complain about them. It wouldn't hurt to point out that a lot of these vendors support the IAP and we are hurting our relationship with them.

I agree...to a point. Vendors are big boys and should be able to take care of themselves, but no one should complain about a vendor they have never done business with. I have seen that happen.

 

[MesquiteMan]

Glad to know that we can forward these to the mods. __________________

Can we? or is this against the TOS?

When you have been told a group of members is circulating an email disparaging your activities on the IAP, what recourse is there?

The TOS says, "...nor may you post the contents of email exchanges without the consent of all parties involved." The important word is POST. You may always feel free to FORWARD objectionable PMs to me or a moderator.

PMs are subject to exactly the same content rules as everything else at the site.

Ed, did you miss this from the big guy? He has spoken. It is perfectly acceptable to forward PMs to Jeff, Myself, Dean, or Andrew.

 

[Padre]

I would like to see something about not flaming vendors, big or small. I've seen a number of posts where the person has not even contacted the vendor to try to resolve an issue but feel it is OK to get on here and complain about them. It wouldn't hurt to point out that a lot of these vendors support the IAP and we are hurting our relationship with them.

I agree...to a point. Vendors are big boys and should be able to take care of themselves, but no one should complain about a vendor they have never done business with. I have seen that happen.

One thing that rankles my heinie is when I see someone flame a vendor BEFORE they have given the vendor a fair shot at remedying the situation. And if you have a situation that you feel you are getting a raw deal, post the WHOLE conversation, not just your side of it. Sometimes our anger blinds us to what the other party is really saying.

 

[ed4copies]

Ed, did you miss this from the big guy? He has spoken. It is perfectly acceptable to forward PMs to Jeff, Myself, Dean, or Andrew.

YEP, I missed it!!!
Thanks!!!!

 

[JimB]

I would like to see something about not flaming vendors, big or small. I've seen a number of posts where the person has not even contacted the vendor to try to resolve an issue but feel it is OK to get on here and complain about them. It wouldn't hurt to point out that a lot of these vendors support the IAP and we are hurting our relationship with them.

I agree...to a point. Vendors are big boys and should be able to take care of themselves, but no one should complain about a vendor they have never done business with. I have seen that happen.

One thing that rankles my heinie is when I see someone flame a vendor BEFORE they have given the vendor a fair shot at remedying the situation. And if you have a situation that you feel you are getting a raw deal, post the WHOLE conversation, not just your side of it. Sometimes our anger blinds us to what the other party is really saying.

I made a second post above to help clarify my view which is right in line with what you are saying.

 

[jeff]

Sending a nasty or harassing PM that would not be allowed in the open forums is not acceptable. Anyone who receives such a PM is welcome to forward it to me or Curtis. Anyone who contemplates SENDing such a PM should really think twice. There is nothing wrong with having a debate in private as long as both parties are willing participants, but please don't annoy, harass, or vent in a PM.

Adding a thought to what Ed said, I think that so many problems stem from the use of PM's that they should have their own "rules of useage"!

It may come as a shock to some but there are many "invisible groups" within the IAP membership where members use PM's to discuss thoughts, hold private "group buys" and the like and believe it or not.... even use their numbers to privately blitz someone via PM's once they have a disagreement with another member.

An example (I'll use John Doe and me as hypothetical members)....... John Doe PM's me asking how to thread some parts on a kitless pen. I suggest he visit a very in-depth thread that another member has going on, which has a lot of time spent explaining the use of taps and that he should get all of his questions answered.

Well, John Doe didn't appreciate the way I was trying to help him so he replied spelling out EXACTLY what he wanted me to give him SPECIFIC answers to and his second PM didn't have that friendly tone anymore.

I simply replied saying I was pretty busy and didn't have the time to spend on a detailed laundry list and suggested he start his own thread asking the same questions. That reply got me a very nasty reply saying that I didn't give a crap about helping anyone, and went on with some other choice words and accusations. I also heard from a few of his "friends" as they also felt compelled to echo his feelings and one even suggested the forum would be a better place without the likes of me if I couldn't answer "a simple question".

That said....... we can come up with a thousand guidelines for etiquette but untill we realize there are some who feel the rules don't apply to them or their will be no real consequences to ignoring the guidelines, we haven't gained an inch.

Just a thought!

George as a moderator, I am a bit abhorred by this. Some of what you said is perfectly acceptable (if a group of friends want to do a private group buy... nothing bad there).

However most of the rest of that is downright bad and some of it is completely against policies. A "blitz" by PM is completely unacceptable and I ask ANYONE that has this happen to them report it.

The rules DO apply... if there is broken rules, Please report them!

 

[edman2]

Thanks Jeff for this effort. Can you say "big editing job?":biggrin: It is needed and should be helpful. Generally, I don't read posts that get onto a negative track. Got better things to do. However, guidelines give moderators boundaries they can enforce and that will be helpful. Thanks for your continuing efforts to insure this is the best forum on the net.

 

[wolftat]

If you wouldn't say something to someones face, with your beloved grandmother listening in, don't type it and post it on the forum.

 

[keithkarl2007]

While this thread was meant to make the forum a better place to be, some of the posts made are actually snide remarks aimed at particular members if they are viewing the thread. They stand out like a sore thumb. If you are only using this thread to secretly attack a member don't bother to post a comment at all.

 

[Scott]

Hi Jeff!

How do you cause a group of free-thinking individuals to respect each other? I don't know. It doesn't seem to be a concept promoted much in our country anymore. But I would suggest that civility needs to be more highly valued here at the IAP than individual right to free speech.

All we want is for everyone to respect each other, and to act in a responsible and civil manner when addressing each other. That really is not asking too much. And if you cannot manage to act in this civil manner you should lose the right to participate here.

Maybe the best adage when contemplating posting something to another member here at the IAP is a quote from the old Disney movie Bambi, by Thumper: If you can't say something nice, don't say nuthin' at all.

Scott.

 

[Fred]

I suggest that whenever anyone posts a reply with a suggestion to "use this" or "check with ... for that tool, part, etc." that IF possible at the time of the reply to at least post a link to that relevant part of your reply.

Don't make your reply a test of people's ability to know how to find it for themselves. Just simply take an extra moment and post a link along with your reply if at all possible.

 

[hilltopper46]

It may come as a shock to some but there are many "invisible groups" within the IAP membership where members use PM's to discuss thoughts, hold private "group buys" and the like

On this topic, your list of rules or strong suggestions should include the fact that it is really quite rude to refer to these invisible groups when posting on IAP. If you have the time and social skills to participate in these groups, fine, so be it. But, please don't make posts referring to them in either an direct or oblique manner. If you want to share what ever the topic is with IAP, share it from the git-go.

 

[Rfturner]

I have to say that over the last year or so things have gotten nastier. There used to be a much more open atmosphere. That being said here are some general rules I go by...

1. Always think before you send something whether on a forum, pm, or email.
2. coming up with a design is VERY time consuming there is often great trial and error. If you wish to make a similar thing try it for your self and go from there. often if you go to the person that made the item and tell them Here is what I have tried can you point me in the right direction. It goes farther than you know.
3. Respect your elders, this refers to physical age as well as those that have more time invested. They have wisdom that they can share but just play nice.
4. Never be afraid to ask a question

 

[MesquiteMan]

Along the copying lines...

If someone has come up with a new idea and actively sells the item, don't take their idea and start selling it here. It is one thing to make something for yourself but once you start selling someone else's ideas, it just shows you have no respect for them or their ideas at all and you are just interested in the money.

 

[keithkarl2007]

Along the copying lines...

If someone has come up with a new idea and actively sells the item, don't take their idea and start selling it here. It is one thing to make something for yourself but once you start selling someone else's ideas, it just shows you have no respect for them or their ideas at all and you are just interested in the money.

I strongly feel these people should be kicked from the forum. They don't make pens themselves and the only input they have is someone elses.

 

[Jgrden]

My wife says that my posts on the IAP should be more representative of the language that I use in church, and less representative of the language that I use in the shop.

I reminded her that I spend one day per week in church and six days per week in the shop!

I am really trying hard, but I'm sure I'll slip sometimes.

Respectfully committed.

:highfive:

 

[Smitty37]

No PMs

Since we are now told that PMs and emails are not private, I would add that members should be able to opt out of receiving and/or sending Private Messages and emails sent from this site..

 

[keithkarl2007]

Since we are now told that PMs and emails are not private, I would add that members should be able to opt out of receiving and/or sending Private Messages and emails sent from this site..

Huh? Does this mean that the moderators can see what PM's and emails we receive?

 

[Jmhoff10500]

Private Message? I don't like the fact that anything such as my address or money info could be seen by anybody other than the recipient...

So only the recipient and the moderators at the most will be able to see any of this right? And only if it is forwarded?

 

[keithkarl2007]

Private Message? I don't like the fact that anything such as my address or money info could be seen by anybody other than the recipient...

How do we know they can't already view it? Someone says they receive these rude messages and don't say what they are or who they are from. Surely the powers that be would have a way of seeing who is causing the trouble and give them the boot. Honestly, I don't know the moderators very well but for all the work they put into the forum, I would put my trust in them. As for your address and money info, if it was an issue just send your email in the PM and send your payment details through your personal email.

 

[MesquiteMan]

NO ONE CAN SEE YOUR PMs unless you or the person you sent the PM to forwards it to someone. Even Jeff, who has all power on this forum, can not read your PMs. It is jut not possible with the safeguards built into the system.

The issue being discussed is that if you receive or send a nasty PM to someone, that PM can be forwarded to Jeff or myself according to the rules. Have no fear!

 

[Jmhoff10500]

Ok, Thank you for the clarification!

NO ONE CAN SEE YOUR PMs unless you or the person you sent the PM to forwards it to someone. Even Jeff, who has all power on this forum, can not read your PMs. It is jut not possible with the safeguards built into the system.

The issue being discussed is that if you receive or send a nasty PM to someone, that PM can be forwarded to Jeff or myself according to the rules. Have no fear!

 

[keithkarl2007]

Bummer, if you could you'd soon find who causes all the riff raff around here.

 

[MesquiteMan]

Since we are now told that PMs and emails are not private, I would add that members should be able to opt out of receiving and/or sending Private Messages and emails sent from this site..

PMs and e-mails are private, Smitty. The rules do, however. allow someone who has received a nastygram to forward them on to Jeff or myself. As I just stated, NO ONE can read your PMs or e-mail unless it is forwarded.

Also, you can already opt out of PMs or e-mails. This is an option in your user profile. You might want to take a look at the options. There might be other things you will find useful there.

To opt out of PMs...go to your user profile. Under settings and options, click on the Edit Options on the left side. Then go to the box titled Messaging and Notifications. There is a check box there called "enable private messaging". Uncheck that and you will not be bothered with using the PM system. There are also options in your profile to disable receiving e-mails.

 

[ed4copies]

Since we are now told that PMs and emails are not private, I would add that members should be able to opt out of receiving and/or sending Private Messages and emails sent from this site..

You can-
See "User CP"
Options
Messaging and Notification

and remove the checkmarks you want to eliminate.