rd_ab_penman
Member
WOW!
I noticed a trend here
- Thread starter jttheclockman
- Start date
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jttheclockman
Member
BSea
Member
This is true on almost every forum I've been in. The more active people tend to be more popular. And their pens get more notice and comments than others do. I'm guilty of it too. I'll tend to comment more on pens made by people I know. The may or may not be "Popular", but since I know them, I tend to recognize their avatar, and I'm more likely to view, and post to their threads. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It's just human nature.
Part of it also comes down to time. I'd like to encourage every new members who post pens. But it isn't realistic to post something on everyone's work.
Another factor that plays into it the number of comments is the quality of pictures, and how unique a pen is. Many people comment on the "WOW" factor of the pens shown. But that is so relative to the individual and the number of pens they've looked at in this forum. Lets face it, a walnut slimline with a decent finish will WOW someone whose never had a hand made pen. But here, it wouldn't get noticed. Even a really nice pen with poor pictures won't get many comments. Sometimes I think the most popular pens are the ones with the best photo's.
jttheclockman
Member
Bob
You make good points and the one about photos is probably true. But it always annoys me when the first line in someone's discription of their pen they show is "Please Excuse the poor quality photos" because i used my cell phone or some other excuse. There are many articles in the library and also an on going tutorial being given about different aspects of taking good quality photos. There is no need to have museum quality photos here but having decent photos is so easy. It does not take much equipment. Even todays cell phones do a decent job. There are many photo.editing sites too. If you take the time to make the pen why not take a few more minutes to show the pen in a way to do it justice.
I agree every site becomes a popularity thing and it works both ways. Some people gravitate to the ones that post more often but they can also turn others off because of that. You will never please everyone for sure.
Carl Fisher
Member
I can speak to why I don't post that often anymore.
I think once you've been around long enough that you get tired of either repeating the same things, reading the same questions, watching the same arguments, etc... So it's easier just to look at the subject line of a post and make a snap judgement that "oh, someone else will respond to that as it's been covered dozens of times over", or "seen that discussion 100 times, no need to read it again". I look at the new posts list and if something unique catches my eye, I'll drop in and read it and occasionally comment if it's an interesting topic, otherwise many times I don't even open the post.
Same for SOYP. It's not that I don't like encouraging people, but after a while you sorta get numb to seeing kit pens with different clothes on. It's the same reason I don't often post in SOYP much anymore. I feel if I've done a version of the pen more than a few times I just don't see any reason to post every pen I make. I'll post something that I find unique or some new skill that I've acquired like my last DE fountain pen, but unless it strikes me as something that would catch my interest, I typically don't post it. Five years ago it was a different story and I was posting almost every pen that came off the lathe because it was new and exciting for me.
I think that's just a natural course and I've watched quite a few go through this same progression in my tenure. So many names that have left for good or only comment once in a while.
I think once you've been around long enough that you get tired of either repeating the same things, reading the same questions, watching the same arguments, etc... So it's easier just to look at the subject line of a post and make a snap judgement that "oh, someone else will respond to that as it's been covered dozens of times over", or "seen that discussion 100 times, no need to read it again". I look at the new posts list and if something unique catches my eye, I'll drop in and read it and occasionally comment if it's an interesting topic, otherwise many times I don't even open the post.
Same for SOYP. It's not that I don't like encouraging people, but after a while you sorta get numb to seeing kit pens with different clothes on. It's the same reason I don't often post in SOYP much anymore. I feel if I've done a version of the pen more than a few times I just don't see any reason to post every pen I make. I'll post something that I find unique or some new skill that I've acquired like my last DE fountain pen, but unless it strikes me as something that would catch my interest, I typically don't post it. Five years ago it was a different story and I was posting almost every pen that came off the lathe because it was new and exciting for me.
I think that's just a natural course and I've watched quite a few go through this same progression in my tenure. So many names that have left for good or only comment once in a while.
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Oh boy :redface:.....this is the reason that I stopped entering any IAP pen contest... and never will again...
I was told that the ONLY reason I won a contest was because it was based on popularity of the member rather than the pen..... I was told this by a member that is still far more 'popular' than me...
I'm so sick and bloody tired of people whining that they could make pens as good as anyone if they had the tools that the next guy had. Yes, the tools help, but it actually takes a bit more than just tools too...:wink:
This was the main reason I made videos of making a stainless steel bolt pen on a wood lathe.
I'm sorry if I'm more popular than you. But perhaps if you participate more and share more, then you too can .....
Jeesh......sometimes I hate this place.....
jttheclockman
Member
Oh boy :redface:.....this is the reason that I stopped entering any IAP pen contest... and never will again...
I was told that the ONLY reason I won a contest was because it was based on popularity of the member rather than the pen..... I was told this by a member that is still far more 'popular' than me...
I'm so sick and bloody tired of people whining that they could make pens as good as anyone if they had the tools that the next guy had. Yes, the tools help, but it actually takes a bit more than just tools too...:wink:
This was the main reason I made videos of making a stainless steel bolt pen on a wood lathe.
I'm sorry if I'm more popular than you. But perhaps if you participate more and share more, then you too can .....
Jeesh......sometimes I hate this place.....
That is summing it up sir. This is so true. Even if you have the tools you need to know what to do with them. Thinking outside the lines. Use the imagination that God gave us all. There are so many more ideas that have not even shown up here. Sometimes I just find it mind-boggling how we become so nearsided in the pens we make. To me having a person such as yourself is such an asset that all can benefit from. There is no down side. Plain and simple. We need more. That is somewhat this thread is about.
We get the ugly side but what can be done to move us forward and once again get people talking pen making.
stonepecker
Member
Oh boy :redface:.....this is the reason that I stopped entering any IAP pen contest... and never will again...
I was told that the ONLY reason I won a contest was because it was based on popularity of the member rather than the pen..... I was told this by a member that is still far more 'popular' than me...
I'm so sick and bloody tired of people whining that they could make pens as good as anyone if they had the tools that the next guy had. Yes, the tools help, but it actually takes a bit more than just tools too...:wink:
This was the main reason I made videos of making a stainless steel bolt pen on a wood lathe.
I'm sorry if I'm more popular than you. But perhaps if you participate more and share more, then you too can .....
Jeesh......sometimes I hate this place.....
I have never HATED any thing about the IAP. That includes the membership.
Have I been disappointed with certain members........YES. But there are so many good people here that the few don't matter. After all, there is always someone else that either will answer my question or explain things to me.
We talk about 'newbies' and the repeating of questions. I just remind everyone that at one time, you were the new person. And as far as looking it up in the library........that doesn't always answer the question. EVEN after looking at the teaching or reading the past forums.....there are times I am more confused then before I started.
Lately, things have seem to been better then a few years ago. I believe that the Moderators are doing a great job. And some of us have been doing great is self-police-ing. I bite my tongue and I move on. I know I can't be fought with when I say "You are right." ...... and walk away.
You can't argue with someone that is agreeing with you. And there are times I know I am right but why waste my breath.
I know this is a little long. I just wanted to explain to the more season turners that sometimes it takes a day to understand what is being said. Sometimes a year. And then there are thetimes when you can't understand no matter how hard you try.
I LOVE the IAP. Just not everything about it.
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There are cycles in every hobby and a certain rate of attrition. This one is no exception. Carl is a perfect example. You move through the cycles from beginner to seasoned turner and along the way maybe you decide your happy at the level your at. Maybe you will or wont buy better tools or invest more time in advanced skills and pens. Maybe you move on to a new hobby and revisit this one from time to time. Maybe your circle of friends move on or away or Life gets in the way, your health can decline, for what ever reason you just dont post as much.
Better tools can mean better results easier, but you still need design skills and dedication to really make pens that stand out. I constantly advocated that the toughest part of anything is Designing. With enough patience and persistence you can master the physical skills but the ability to design is what makes the difference.
Better tools can mean better results easier, but you still need design skills and dedication to really make pens that stand out. I constantly advocated that the toughest part of anything is Designing. With enough patience and persistence you can master the physical skills but the ability to design is what makes the difference.
Cwalker935
Member
Oh boy :redface:.....this is the reason that I stopped entering any IAP pen contest... and never will again...
I was told that the ONLY reason I won a contest was because it was based on popularity of the member rather than the pen..... I was told this by a member that is still far more 'popular' than me...
I'm so sick and bloody tired of people whining that they could make pens as good as anyone if they had the tools that the next guy had. Yes, the tools help, but it actually takes a bit more than just tools too...:wink:
This was the main reason I made videos of making a stainless steel bolt pen on a wood lathe.
I'm sorry if I'm more popular than you. But perhaps if you participate more and share more, then you too can .....
Jeesh......sometimes I hate this place.....
Skiprat: After seeing some your incredible work, I do not understand how anyone could say that you were winning based on popularity! I thought that maybe you had been banned from contests so that others could have a chance of winning.
My biggest complaint is that some of the older more experienced turners out there rarely show their work. Maybe it is not new to them but it may be new to others like myself that have only be making pens for a few years and are not long time members of the forum.
As for naysayers, the back and forth sniping is some times entertaining. What is hard to understand is why it sometimes turns personal very quickly.
Carl Fisher
Member
Because people take it personally when their opinions are brought into question or refuted. Human nature unfortunately. Also take out things like tone inflection and body language by typing it out in text and it spawns the ever popular flame war that has been around since the BBS days due to a simple misunderstanding of the intent of what was said.
Well in my opinion, right there is some of the problem...why assume someone who disagrees is a "naysayer. That makes it personal. We should try very hard to address the comment, not the commentator.
Oh boy :redface:.....this is the reason that I stopped entering any IAP pen contest... and never will again...
I was told that the ONLY reason I won a contest was because it was based on popularity of the member rather than the pen..... I was told this by a member that is still far more 'popular' than me...
I'm so sick and bloody tired of people whining that they could make pens as good as anyone if they had the tools that the next guy had. Yes, the tools help, but it actually takes a bit more than just tools too...:wink:
This was the main reason I made videos of making a stainless steel bolt pen on a wood lathe.
I'm sorry if I'm more popular than you. But perhaps if you participate more and share more, then you too can .....
Jeesh......sometimes I hate this place.....
Skiprat: After seeing some your incredible work, I do not understand how anyone could say that you were winning based on popularity! I thought that maybe you had been banned from contests so that others could have a chance of winning.
My biggest complaint is that some of the older more experienced turners out there rarely show their work. Maybe it is not new to them but it may be new to others like myself that have only be making pens for a few years and are not long time members of the forum.
As for naysayers, the back and forth sniping is some times entertaining. What is hard to understand is why it sometimes turns personal very quickly.
Cwalker935
Member
Dang, I was trying to be positive. Smitty, I have never thought of the term "naysayer" as being personal. I meant it in the sense of someone that is disagreeing.
Merriam Webster defines naysayer as: one who denies, refuses, opposes, or is skeptical or cynical about something. That describes me in numerous ways and I do not think bad of myself. On the other hand, the Urban dictionary defines naysayer as: One who frequently engages in excessive complaining, negative banter and/or a genuinely poor and downbeat attitude. That can certainly be taken personal.
This sort of illustrates how things can go awry, I meant it one way and you read it a different way. Hmm, maybe I need to call you a bad name or something. Just kidding.
Merriam Webster defines naysayer as: one who denies, refuses, opposes, or is skeptical or cynical about something. That describes me in numerous ways and I do not think bad of myself. On the other hand, the Urban dictionary defines naysayer as: One who frequently engages in excessive complaining, negative banter and/or a genuinely poor and downbeat attitude. That can certainly be taken personal.
This sort of illustrates how things can go awry, I meant it one way and you read it a different way. Hmm, maybe I need to call you a bad name or something. Just kidding.
Wayne ( Stone Pecker) you are correct and I shouldn't have said 'hate' , Of course I actually love coming here and love the place too. Sometimes I get frustrated and engage my mouth before my brain.:frown:
I don't hate anything or anyone and it's a pity I aimed my frustrations at Oldman5050. Hopefully he wasn't aiming his comments at me.
I don't hate anything or anyone and it's a pity I aimed my frustrations at Oldman5050. Hopefully he wasn't aiming his comments at me.
But, naysayer is a noun. What I was pointing out is illustrated by this: Saying "You can't do that" and saying "That can't be done" are two possible answers essentially if spoken in person would most likely be taken to mean "That can't be done". Yet here it would often be taken to have a personal meaning.
Hubert H
Member
Good discussion - I guess I have a good ignore button in my brain. IAP has been great for me and I just overlook the rubbish some people may post. I look at IAP ever day - maybe I should comment/post more. We did loose someone about a year ago that people seemed to like disagreeing with. I had learned a lot from him even if he was a little on the blunt side.
Well to sum up my 2 cents - Jeff, I sure do appreciate IAP you and all of those that help you. If it can be made better - good - but lets remember that it is still a GREAT site.
Well to sum up my 2 cents - Jeff, I sure do appreciate IAP you and all of those that help you. If it can be made better - good - but lets remember that it is still a GREAT site.
dogcatcher
Member
I don't post very often and rarely ask a question. I can get answer quicker with hitting search. The answers are all here, all one has to do is use the search function. But I do go through most of the threads on a daily basis.
As to the downturn of activity, it is the end of the summer, for a lot of members it is the last days to get out and enjoy the outdoors. All of the forums I am on slow down in the summer months, but pick up again after the weather starts to turn cold. I have seen this thread in different fashions on the callmaking forums, the general woodturning forums, the hunting forums, pipemaking forum, the woodworking forum etc. The only big exception is the fishing forum, it picks up in the summer and slows down on the winter.
Give it a month or so and the activity will increase. I have more "inside" time in late fall and winter, in the summer and spring we are on the go, we travel, we work and play outside. Woodturning, penturning, callmaking etc., is on semi hold if I can go fishing or take a trip somewhere.
As to the downturn of activity, it is the end of the summer, for a lot of members it is the last days to get out and enjoy the outdoors. All of the forums I am on slow down in the summer months, but pick up again after the weather starts to turn cold. I have seen this thread in different fashions on the callmaking forums, the general woodturning forums, the hunting forums, pipemaking forum, the woodworking forum etc. The only big exception is the fishing forum, it picks up in the summer and slows down on the winter.
Give it a month or so and the activity will increase. I have more "inside" time in late fall and winter, in the summer and spring we are on the go, we travel, we work and play outside. Woodturning, penturning, callmaking etc., is on semi hold if I can go fishing or take a trip somewhere.
edicehouse
Member
A new turner asks "How do I do a CA finish" where 5 years ago it was more of a trade secret (just using as an example), they would get links to videos, well thought out answers, and now they get "do a search".
What is the age group? When I first joined just over 4 years ago there were a lot more posts about where to "buy" things, and that seems to be limited to the vender forums now.
Also if you have been on the site more than 6 months or turned more then 10 pens how often are you going to SOYP a cigar acrylic from woodcraft?
Also I am guilty of this, not commenting on people showing pens. There are a few makers and name dropping get 25% or more so views in SOYP.
What is the age group? When I first joined just over 4 years ago there were a lot more posts about where to "buy" things, and that seems to be limited to the vender forums now.
Also if you have been on the site more than 6 months or turned more then 10 pens how often are you going to SOYP a cigar acrylic from woodcraft?
Also I am guilty of this, not commenting on people showing pens. There are a few makers and name dropping get 25% or more so views in SOYP.
SteveJ
Member
I really enjoy the IAP. I believe that the growth in numbers often results in less posts. It seems less personal. You have to look harder for the posts from people whose work you appreciate. But looking back at some of the posts from the "good old days" will reveal that often they were dealing with the same concerns we have expressed here.
Check out this thread: http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/pentarsia-15888/
It contains a beautiful pen. Complaints about favoritism. Controversy. Anger and just plain weirdness (check out the final page with a discussion of someone mistakenly calling some guy a girl and people getting their undies in a bundle about it!)
Long live the IAP! Always changing and ever the same.
Check out this thread: http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/pentarsia-15888/
It contains a beautiful pen. Complaints about favoritism. Controversy. Anger and just plain weirdness (check out the final page with a discussion of someone mistakenly calling some guy a girl and people getting their undies in a bundle about it!)
Long live the IAP! Always changing and ever the same.
brownsfn2
Member
I can understand the feeling a little bit. My wife takes excellent pictures that have won awards and contests. People always tell her "You must have a nice camera to take such awesome pictures."
I always tell them that it is strange that if the equipment is what makes her photos great then why did the cooking not improve when I bought her a new oven?
By the way I think my posts would be so much more accepted and listened to if I had the same computer keyboard you have. I am sure it is a nice one.
Would that be the English Language version of the American English "I'm sick and tired"?:biggrin:
Oh boy :redface:.....this is the reason that I stopped entering any IAP pen contest... and never will again...
I was told that the ONLY reason I won a contest was because it was based on popularity of the member rather than the pen..... I was told this by a member that is still far more 'popular' than me...
I'm so sick and bloody tired of people whining that they could make pens as good as anyone if they had the tools that the next guy had. Yes, the tools help, but it actually takes a bit more than just tools too...:wink:
This was the main reason I made videos of making a stainless steel bolt pen on a wood lathe.
I'm sorry if I'm more popular than you. But perhaps if you participate more and share more, then you too can .....
Jeesh......sometimes I hate this place.....
wood-of-1kind
Member
We "used" to have pen makers that were true "characters" that had a lot to offer including stirring the pot once in a while. Sorry to say but the environment here has become more sedate and sterile. Not meant as knock against the site nor new members but simply an observation on my behalf.
I'm happy to see this thread. I'm guilty of posting less, my posts per day count has fallen continuously for several years. I posted in SOYP once or twice 7-8 year ago and never since. I don't open posts from SOYP, not much interested in seeing your pens, never was. I like to set my own direction. I often make an effort to reply to questions from beginners, I was a beginner once and I learned from more experienced turners, I like to pay it back a little.
One observation that I have is that posts come and go so quickly now. An interesting post on a subject I want to know more about comes up, a handful of responses come in during first 24 hours and then it gets buried and ignored. My memory of this site when I joined in 2007 is that the same posts stayed active for much longer and fewer new posts were started. The discussions were more lively. I miss that.
For my part it is pen making success that keeps me away and less active when I do visit. We sell a lot of pens, all my extra time outside of my day job is spent in front of the lathe. I get the feedback I need about the pens I make from the buyers who come into our display at art shows. When they walk away with one of our pens and leave some of their money behind I know they like what we are doing. I miss the lively conversations that used to occur in the Marketing and Shows forum.
Over the years I've rarely visited the site without learning something useful. This site always had been and remains an outstanding resource.
One observation that I have is that posts come and go so quickly now. An interesting post on a subject I want to know more about comes up, a handful of responses come in during first 24 hours and then it gets buried and ignored. My memory of this site when I joined in 2007 is that the same posts stayed active for much longer and fewer new posts were started. The discussions were more lively. I miss that.
For my part it is pen making success that keeps me away and less active when I do visit. We sell a lot of pens, all my extra time outside of my day job is spent in front of the lathe. I get the feedback I need about the pens I make from the buyers who come into our display at art shows. When they walk away with one of our pens and leave some of their money behind I know they like what we are doing. I miss the lively conversations that used to occur in the Marketing and Shows forum.
Over the years I've rarely visited the site without learning something useful. This site always had been and remains an outstanding resource.
NittanyLion
Member
See:
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/10/remembrance-of-message-boards-past/?_r=0
Why I've Posted 27,000 Times to One Online Forum
Both sum up what is happening here in my opinion. What makes the IAP so successful, is now causing a drop in participation......too much info, tough to navigate, no instant gratification, etc.
I see it in Business as well. You better grab someone's attention in the first sentence or two in an email, or you loose them. It's the same reason that texting has replaced email. Social media and technology has changed everything.....good or bad, it's really had an impact and message boards are dying.
And please don't beat me up too bad for saying this.....or I may never post again:biggrin:
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/10/remembrance-of-message-boards-past/?_r=0
Why I've Posted 27,000 Times to One Online Forum
Both sum up what is happening here in my opinion. What makes the IAP so successful, is now causing a drop in participation......too much info, tough to navigate, no instant gratification, etc.
I see it in Business as well. You better grab someone's attention in the first sentence or two in an email, or you loose them. It's the same reason that texting has replaced email. Social media and technology has changed everything.....good or bad, it's really had an impact and message boards are dying.
And please don't beat me up too bad for saying this.....or I may never post again:biggrin:
jttheclockman
Member
Over 2300 views, 64 posts to the thread. When i first posted the thread I wasn't so sure where it would lead or if anyone would pay attention to it. I look back at the original posting and then look through the responses and I have read them all, I see some disturbing but truthful answers. There were many reasons given for the fall-off of participation and the one that sours things is the bickering and how it has a negative effect on the community.
The other reasons of having this wealth of info here at your fingertips now is a product of years gone by and the work of the membership. Not having to ask as many questions because of it. I get that.
People being busy with more things in their lives that are way more important than visiting and spending time typing in a message board. I get that.
Having more social sites to visit and getting info quicker is one I do not get. Those social sites are so sterile and so rediculous in that everyone has to tell the world every little move they make throughout their day is to me dumb. I will never get that.
It was even brought up that today there is less new materials and ideas to work with and develop in the world of pen making and this one I totally disagree. Being creative is something that is inbred in all of us.
With all the responses so far I see reasons for drop off but I do not see ideas to reverse it. I do not buy the theory of time of season for being a huge difference maker. We all live in different parts of the world.
I would love to see some more positive responses to make this site resounding again and get more chatter or share more ideas. I do know one thing that needs to stop and soon is the bickering and the exchange of cheap shots. Also just because someone is more creative than most we do not need to hold this against them but celebrate what they have to offer. We need more people like this. We lost too many over the years. We need to open our minds and challenge ourselves more.
Maybe there is no more to give and this is what this site is. Maybe pen turning has become too mundane and boring for all. Maybe we all sit back and accept what we have here and call it a day. I sure hope not. I am hoping by the end of the year I can get some good news healthwise and it allows me to return to my shop. I will then try to lead by example for I have a few ideas to try out on that little round stick. Untill then I will amuse myself with threads like this.
Happy turning
The other reasons of having this wealth of info here at your fingertips now is a product of years gone by and the work of the membership. Not having to ask as many questions because of it. I get that.
People being busy with more things in their lives that are way more important than visiting and spending time typing in a message board. I get that.
Having more social sites to visit and getting info quicker is one I do not get. Those social sites are so sterile and so rediculous in that everyone has to tell the world every little move they make throughout their day is to me dumb. I will never get that.
It was even brought up that today there is less new materials and ideas to work with and develop in the world of pen making and this one I totally disagree. Being creative is something that is inbred in all of us.
With all the responses so far I see reasons for drop off but I do not see ideas to reverse it. I do not buy the theory of time of season for being a huge difference maker. We all live in different parts of the world.
I would love to see some more positive responses to make this site resounding again and get more chatter or share more ideas. I do know one thing that needs to stop and soon is the bickering and the exchange of cheap shots. Also just because someone is more creative than most we do not need to hold this against them but celebrate what they have to offer. We need more people like this. We lost too many over the years. We need to open our minds and challenge ourselves more.
Maybe there is no more to give and this is what this site is. Maybe pen turning has become too mundane and boring for all. Maybe we all sit back and accept what we have here and call it a day. I sure hope not. I am hoping by the end of the year I can get some good news healthwise and it allows me to return to my shop. I will then try to lead by example for I have a few ideas to try out on that little round stick. Untill then I will amuse myself with threads like this.
Happy turning
JT, I am going to guess that you will find that the drop off in posts correlates pretty well with when IAP made the decision to tighten political and religious post (among others) to rein in 'flames' and 'tighten' what vendors could post about their products in threads (it was called advertising) and created vendor catalogs and later vendor forums. In my opinion the desired and successful implementation of all of those things had the effect of reducing both the number of threads and the number of posts. I'd almost guess that "Casual Conversation" has fallen off by at least half.
Additionally, adding the "like" button reduced the number of posts in SYOP threads - I have seen some of them that might have had 20 likes and 2 or 3 posts often 7 or 8 likes and no posts.
I think all of the above were done to reduce clutter and they succeeded. I understand your goal is to increase threads and posts "of substance" - I think the reason you aren't getting many answers to that side of your question might well be because there aren't any. I can't think of any. I don't even read over half of the threads now and don't respond to more than half of the ones I do read because I have nothing to contribute even if the thread is interesting to me.
edstreet
Member
Rick_G
Member
I guess I am one of those that is guilty of not posting much any more, not that I ever posted a lot. I started turning mainly to make pens to support our military and to date have sent over 200 pens, from slim lines to a baron FP to one Warrant Officer that collected FP's. Since each pen went with a letter of support I've got some nice reply's the best from a major that had used the pen that morning to sign the orders to bring his guys back from Afghanistan. I've got hints on selling from this site but in this area when people start clutching at their chest when you mention $20 for a ti gold slim I gave that up. I don't post in SOYP much because to be honest turning a kit out of wood after turning pens for over 5 years is not much to show off. Being retired and with a bad back I spend my days in my toyroom - I mean my workshop for a couple hours and then sit at the computer for a while. i usually check the site a couple times a day but for some reason generally only look at the home page (I'm likely missing a lot) If there is a thread that looks interesting I read it and if I think I have something to add I reply but usually by the time I get there 4 or 5 others have already said what I would have.
For those who post mainly useless or derogatory comments to stir the pot (You know who you are) I spent 10 years of my life in the military defending your right to be wrong so......
For those who post mainly useless or derogatory comments to stir the pot (You know who you are) I spent 10 years of my life in the military defending your right to be wrong so......
jttheclockman
Member
Well Ed it is not a case of help but it seems that back on 4/2013 when Roy asked that question it basically had the same context of what I asked or observed. It also looks like some of the same responses back then are still prevalent today. Just 2 years later.
Maybe Smitty is right there is no answer to the latter part of the equation. It is what it is. Take it for what its worth. The changing of the guard will take the site down the path they choose.
I will try to still be part of this when I can.
edstreet
Member
What later part of the equation?
Also .... Changing of the guard??? Ownership changing? Someone else get fired? I'm not sure what you are referencing here so care to expand?
jttheclockman
Member
Later part of the equation is reference to the two parts of the question. Why (first part) and how to fix (later part)
Changing of the guard= old members out or leaving and newer members coming on board. You have so many new members joining everyday and hopefully with them they bring fresh ideas.
Hope that spells it out for you.
Bob Wemm
Member
JT. I have a feeling that Smitty is as close to the answer as anyone, I don't think there is a real answer to the question. Times change, we all change and a lot of us older members still think that things should be the same as they were years ago.
The "changing of the guard" is absolutely going to happen, whether we like it or not, and as is evident now, everything is changing before our eyes and the only thing we can do is get on with what ever happens.
Thank you for starting this thread and I hope that you can get back to turning soon.
Bob
The "changing of the guard" is absolutely going to happen, whether we like it or not, and as is evident now, everything is changing before our eyes and the only thing we can do is get on with what ever happens.
Thank you for starting this thread and I hope that you can get back to turning soon.
Bob
Cwalker935
Member
In an effort to boost participation in the SYOP forum, I just bumped two pens back to the front page. While they are kit pens they are both nicely done and IMO excellent pairings of kit and blank. Go have a look.
The two links you provide make compelling explanations for the decline of message boards, and I find myself in full agreement. At the same time I can't help but wonder how to explain the incredible current success of Reddit and Quora here in the waning years of the message board phenomena.
C. Scott
Member
John,
When I join in 2004 I had already been making pens for several years and I saw the IAP as a great forum (still the best!) for the pen turning community. At that time my pens were slightly mediocre. Fit was good and I learned a lot on my own, but I didn't know how to CA and thinking outside of the box well...
Guys like Bruce Boone, Eagle, Ed Davidson, Russ Fairfield & Richard Kleinheinz (sp?)inspired me to try things and challenged me to question what my self-perceived pen making abilities were and what they could be. Could I make a pen as good as theirs? Maybe, if I was willing to try and because of them, I learned the skills I have now. I consider my pens first rate (although EVERY SINGLE ONE HAS AT LEAST ONE MISTAKE IN IT).
I have Monty to "blame" for me learning a CA finish, thanks a lot! "Oh, you've never done a CA finish? Oh you've got to try it!" (I think I've forgotten how to put on a friction finish. LOL!)
Later on guys like Skiprat and Greeneyedblack (just to name a few) inspired and amazed me, but like many have said we change and the season of life that each of us are in changes.
I've got nine (9) kids now and so my time is very limited, but I still get to make a few pens, just no where near what I used to do.
I still love the site and when I do get on (maybe 5 times a week) I usually learn something. I hardly ask questions because of the "search" feature and I don't want to waste someone's time when I can more than likely find the answer myself.
As far as flaming goes. It's to be expected, I try not to be thinned skinned. Not saying it's right, but stuff like that I just have to "blow it off".
I think that the IAP has been a "shortcut" for the success of many pen builders and is still a great forum.
Keep up the great work guys!
That's just my musings if you will.
When I join in 2004 I had already been making pens for several years and I saw the IAP as a great forum (still the best!) for the pen turning community. At that time my pens were slightly mediocre. Fit was good and I learned a lot on my own, but I didn't know how to CA and thinking outside of the box well...
Guys like Bruce Boone, Eagle, Ed Davidson, Russ Fairfield & Richard Kleinheinz (sp?)inspired me to try things and challenged me to question what my self-perceived pen making abilities were and what they could be. Could I make a pen as good as theirs? Maybe, if I was willing to try and because of them, I learned the skills I have now. I consider my pens first rate (although EVERY SINGLE ONE HAS AT LEAST ONE MISTAKE IN IT).
I have Monty to "blame" for me learning a CA finish, thanks a lot!
"Oh, you've never done a CA finish? Oh you've got to try it!" (I think I've forgotten how to put on a friction finish. LOL!)Later on guys like Skiprat and Greeneyedblack (just to name a few) inspired and amazed me, but like many have said we change and the season of life that each of us are in changes.
I've got nine (9) kids now and so my time is very limited, but I still get to make a few pens, just no where near what I used to do.
I still love the site and when I do get on (maybe 5 times a week) I usually learn something. I hardly ask questions because of the "search" feature and I don't want to waste someone's time when I can more than likely find the answer myself.
As far as flaming goes. It's to be expected, I try not to be thinned skinned. Not saying it's right, but stuff like that I just have to "blow it off".
I think that the IAP has been a "shortcut" for the success of many pen builders and is still a great forum.
Keep up the great work guys!
That's just my musings if you will.
One of the bad effects (in my opinion) of the advances in technology is that it seems to encourage speaking without thinking, answering the wrong question and not reading what the other person said before responding. When email first became available where I worked, emails were as carefully constructed as memo's on paper were, everything was thought through as though you would have to defend it in a meeting or to higher management. Not so today and not so with texting.
BackyardSmokin
Member
As a "newbie" to this forum, penturning and woodworking in general, I find this site to be wealth of information. I have been lurking and searching for a while now and with the search function I have found many of the answers to my questions. This site has provided me many ideas on projects and ways of accomplishing what I want to do with my limited tool set.
Reading through the threads they have shown me that there are more ways to do things. I find those threads with a healthy and lively debate on the pros and cons of how to do something the most valuable. However, I get turned off when the thread turns into a flame war.
There is a quote from Star Trek: the Next Generation that I believe rings true today, "They want instant knowledge, instant power and gratification". People want to do one search and find an exact answer. If the answer they find does not work for them they bash that answer. They are unwilling to learn that there is not one blanket answers but the answer changes as the variables change. When this happens, some of those that are willing to help tend to give up in helping others again. On the same note, others do not want to search they just want to post their question and get an answer even though the question was posted previously. This leads to those that have helped in past being frustrated because the original poster did not use the search function and thus leaving a snarky remark or not posting at all. This then turns off the original poster. (I personally have been guilty of doing both on other forums).
On a side note, this is not only happening in forums but in life as well. I have friend with whom I have shared pics of some of my turnings, wood carvings, intarsia and fret work. After seeing my work,my friend wants to get involved into woodworking. they have taken classes at their local Rockler and Woodcraft but it only wets their appetite even more. We reach out to their local woodworking group to see if there is a way that someone in the group could show my friend more before diving in and buying equipment. The response from the group was that my friend needed to pay $400 for the membership dues then $100 per hour for a 1 on 1 session. Needless to say this turned my friend off. To us it looks like the group is out to make money over helping others get involved into woodworking.
Reading through the threads they have shown me that there are more ways to do things. I find those threads with a healthy and lively debate on the pros and cons of how to do something the most valuable. However, I get turned off when the thread turns into a flame war.
There is a quote from Star Trek: the Next Generation that I believe rings true today, "They want instant knowledge, instant power and gratification". People want to do one search and find an exact answer. If the answer they find does not work for them they bash that answer. They are unwilling to learn that there is not one blanket answers but the answer changes as the variables change. When this happens, some of those that are willing to help tend to give up in helping others again. On the same note, others do not want to search they just want to post their question and get an answer even though the question was posted previously. This leads to those that have helped in past being frustrated because the original poster did not use the search function and thus leaving a snarky remark or not posting at all. This then turns off the original poster. (I personally have been guilty of doing both on other forums).
On a side note, this is not only happening in forums but in life as well. I have friend with whom I have shared pics of some of my turnings, wood carvings, intarsia and fret work. After seeing my work,my friend wants to get involved into woodworking. they have taken classes at their local Rockler and Woodcraft but it only wets their appetite even more. We reach out to their local woodworking group to see if there is a way that someone in the group could show my friend more before diving in and buying equipment. The response from the group was that my friend needed to pay $400 for the membership dues then $100 per hour for a 1 on 1 session. Needless to say this turned my friend off. To us it looks like the group is out to make money over helping others get involved into woodworking.
I'm not ready to solicit pall bearers just yet :biggrin:
That first link was an interesting article, but I think it overstates the value of social media as a replacement for the community that a forum provides.
I also completely agree that we have fewer posts and threads than in years past (we peaked in 2010). However, just because there is some amount of data in the archive about a particular subject doesn't mean that it's not productive to raise it again. 10 years ago there were threads on "what's the best tool for turning pens?" and little mention was made of carbide. I imagine that someday that question will be asked and we'll be talking about some new technology like inserts made from unobtainium or miracleum, or quantum deflagration of wood cells. Most topics are worth revisiting as new people join the mix and as technology and methods evolve.
Carl Fisher
Member
On the flip side there are some topics that come up so often that it turns some of the veterans off from even checking out certain forums.
A good example of this is the constant barrage of CA questions, most of which are the same question that someone posted somewhere within the last 2 pages of threads. CA cracked glass look, CA lifting from the ends of the blank, CA fogging up, breaking CA from the bushings, CA application methods, etc... Perhaps we should enact sticky posts for some of these common FAQ type questions? Then it would free up posts for other new conversations that may be of more interest.
A great technique I've seen in use on very large forums is to have a single sticky in a given forum section that contains links to other good historical conversations on a given topic that comes up regularly. Lock the thread but give a forum moderator the ability to add or update it as needed. One of the 4Runner forums I'm on is huge but when I was getting involved these sticky posts were invaluable in helping me locate some of the most commonly asked questions complete with links to very good discussions on the topic.
Just some random thoughts that are probably not relevant to the topic of participation, but may help in how to locate and identify some of these past threads that deserve revisiting.
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jttheclockman
Member
Carl you make a good point and to add to that certain technical problems will never change. Such as you mentioned CA problems. This is a big one and all started when we started using CA as a finish. What happens and I said this over and over again that sometimes answers get watered down so much so that the entire problem is not answered. The reason they get watered down is that they become so redundant and people do get tired of answering. That is why I refer people to do a search. Many times that answer gets frowned upon but it is a valuable tool here.
In the segmenting forum I started a thread called "Why Blanks go Boom"
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f179/why-blanks-go-boom-110385/
When I started that thread my intention was to have a place where someone could go for reasons as to why a blank blew up and it happens so many times and the question gets asked how can this happen. How can it be avoided. I do not know how many people use that or find it valuable. But if it were stickied at the top of the forum it would be easier to find.
Might be something to look at.
In the segmenting forum I started a thread called "Why Blanks go Boom"
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f179/why-blanks-go-boom-110385/
When I started that thread my intention was to have a place where someone could go for reasons as to why a blank blew up and it happens so many times and the question gets asked how can this happen. How can it be avoided. I do not know how many people use that or find it valuable. But if it were stickied at the top of the forum it would be easier to find.
Might be something to look at.
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