Gun metal vs. blk. ti.

[LeeR]

My everyday pen now is a Woodcraft Retro in chrome, and I use the gel refills. No wear yet on the chrome, but certainly too early to tell. But I go thru the gel refills in about 2 months. I like them, but they do put down a lot of ink!

 

[hdtran]

Sorry Smitty "Gun metal is not a chrome based finish. It is a "black" nickel plating designed to imitate Black Ti."


Gun Metal or gunmetal is an alloy of 88 percent copper, 10 percent tin, and 2 percent zinc. In some cases, the zinc is replaced with lead. In other cases there is lead added with the zinc as well.

If it was a nickel-based alloy, then it would have very good wear characteristics.

Sorry

Jerry, that was an engineer's response--technicallly correct One definition of 'gun metal' or 'gunmetal' is the bronze used to make artillery tubes.

The lawyer's response is that gunmetal is also a color: Bluish-gray, is how I would describe it.

(Note that I'm an engineer, so I'm entitled to make engineer jokes)

For the context of this discussion, I'm pretty sure that pen parts are not made from bronze. Therefore, they're not made from gunmetal. I would guess that some pen parts (nib, finial) are likely to be brass, but they could also be a less expensive metal. Clips are likely to be steel (I put a magnet on some slimline clips; they're steel). The various titanium, platinum, rhodium, gold, etc. are finishes, not solid parts. In some cases, they are electro-plated finishes (platinum, rhodium, gold); others are vacuum chemical vapor deposited finishes (TiN, etc.).

Depending on the metal of the pen part (nib, clip, or finial), nickel may be used as an intermediate layer (this is total speculation--in industry, you almost always put a small layer of nickel before you do the gold, to promote adhesion and prevent migration of gold into the substrate or the substrate to the surface of the gold).

Regards,

hdtran

PS: It was called gunmetal or 'gun metal' because that was the bronze used to cast guns! And by gun, we mean 24-pound guns (guns shooting a 24 pound cannonball) or other large guns, not the itty bitty 0.22!

 

[SteveG]

Whew!! After reading all this, I am EXHAUSTED! I think I will turn in my lathe, remove the yellow sock, and start using Bic pens:biggrin:!!!

 

[Smitty37]

True

Sorry Smitty "Gun metal is not a chrome based finish. It is a "black" nickel plating designed to imitate Black Ti."


Gun Metal or gunmetal is an alloy of 88 percent copper, 10 percent tin, and 2 percent zinc. In some cases, the zinc is replaced with lead. In other cases there is lead added with the zinc as well.

If it was a nickel-based alloy, then it would have very good wear characteristics.

Sorry

Jerry, that was an engineer's response--technicallly correct One definition of 'gun metal' or 'gunmetal' is the bronze used to make artillery tubes.

The lawyer's response is that gunmetal is also a color: Bluish-gray, is how I would describe it.

(Note that I'm an engineer, so I'm entitled to make engineer jokes)

For the context of this discussion, I'm pretty sure that pen parts are not made from bronze. Therefore, they're not made from gunmetal. I would guess that some pen parts (nib, finial) are likely to be brass, but they could also be a less expensive metal. Clips are likely to be steel (I put a magnet on some slimline clips; they're steel). The various titanium, platinum, rhodium, gold, etc. are finishes, not solid parts. In some cases, they are electro-plated finishes (platinum, rhodium, gold); others are vacuum chemical vapor deposited finishes (TiN, etc.).

Depending on the metal of the pen part (nib, clip, or finial), nickel may be used as an intermediate layer (this is total speculation--in industry, you almost always put a small layer of nickel before you do the gold, to promote adhesion and prevent migration of gold into the substrate or the substrate to the surface of the gold).

Regards,

hdtran

PS: It was called gunmetal or 'gun metal' because that was the bronze used to cast guns! And by gun, we mean 24-pound guns (guns shooting a 24 pound cannonball) or other large guns, not the itty bitty 0.22!

I asked my supplier about some platings and I can attest that at least one supplier uses the vacuum chemical vapor method for their Gold Titanium finishes. I have always wondered about all of the finishes being electro-plated. I know it works well for good conductors like gold, copper and silver but I have wondered about the other finishes.

 

[hdtran]

Nickel can be deposited on plastics via 'electroless nickel.' The gold-plate on the centerband of euro-pens is most likely done first with a flash of electroless nickel (chemical bath) followed by gold electroplate.

TiN is a ceramic material, and cannot (for now anyway) be electroplated. On tools, such as drill bits or milling inserts, the TiN is almost always deposited in a vacuum chamber using some form of vapor deposition.

Aluminum, gold, etc. can also be deposited via vacuum deposition, but vacuum deposition is almost always more expensive than electroplating.

Gold is almost never plated directly on copper, because gold loves to migrate into copper (and vice-versa), so in electronic circuit boards or connectors, you always put a thin layer of nickel on top of the copper before you put the gold contact on at the end.

A trace of cobalt is usually added to the gold (even 24K is allowed up to 0.1% other stuff) to harden the gold.

I would guess that the pen industry is such small potatos (potatoes?) that they use the same chemicals and processes used by electronics or other large industries.

But of course, I don't do business in the pen industry, so I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Best,

hdtran

 

[Smitty37]

Right maybe,

I agree that the pen plating industry is probably small patatoes but I think it shares a lot of characteristics with the jewelry plating industry which might make it a little bigger.

 

[Smitty37]

You said it

Nickel can be deposited on plastics via 'electroless nickel.' The gold-plate on the centerband of euro-pens is most likely done first with a flash of electroless nickel (chemical bath) followed by gold electroplate.

TiN is a ceramic material, and cannot (for now anyway) be electroplated. On tools, such as drill bits or milling inserts, the TiN is almost always deposited in a vacuum chamber using some form of vapor deposition.

Aluminum, gold, etc. can also be deposited via vacuum deposition, but vacuum deposition is almost always more expensive than electroplating.

Gold is almost never plated directly on copper, because gold loves to migrate into copper (and vice-versa), so in electronic circuit boards or connectors, you always put a thin layer of nickel on top of the copper before you put the gold contact on at the end.

A trace of cobalt is usually added to the gold (even 24K is allowed up to 0.1% other stuff) to harden the gold.

I would guess that the pen industry is such small potatos (potatoes?) that they use the same chemicals and processes used by electronics or other large industries.

But of course, I don't do business in the pen industry, so I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Best,

hdtran

Man did you ever hit that nail on the head.

 

[Texatdurango]

......But of course, I don't do business in the pen industry, so I have no idea what I'm talking about......

So, join the other 99.9% of the people on the forum who regularly get into these plating discussions! :biggrin:

 

[Smitty37]

yep

My everyday pen now is a Woodcraft Retro in chrome, and I use the gel refills. No wear yet on the chrome, but certainly too early to tell. But I go thru the gel refills in about 2 months. I like them, but they do put down a lot of ink!

Seems to be a characteristic - my wife uses gel refills and goes through them fast also.

 

[JerrySambrook]

To answer a few questions that have been brought up

Ed, Copper is "reddish" in color, but both the lead and zinc will impart their hue more than the copper does in this case. That is mostly why it is grey.
It also has to do with the temps that the plating occurs at, and the process of plating as well.

TiN gets its gold color from having the process done in a high nitrogen chamber, TiN can also be made other colors, depending on the gas used in the chamber durinf the process.

Nickel or a tin/lead substrate is put on various items between copper and gold to keep migration from occurring. Hardware pieces are typically nickel, and boards are typically tin/lead (and the tin mention here is not Titanium Nitride).

Again though, there is no nickel in gun metal or gun matal plating, as nickel is a hard-wearing substance.

And you are right HY, a humans answer would be way different from a lawyers answer:biggrin:

 

[Smitty37]

I've asked my supplier

Jerry you might be right - I've asked my supplier what they use in their gun metal plating.

My information didn't come from personal knowledge - I read an item about gun metal plating (as related to pen kits) that said it was "black nickel" and implied low wear resistance. One of the definitions of "black nickel" that I saw is that a zinc alloy solution is applied over bright nickel to give it the dark color and that surface is very thin and much more succeptable to wear than nickel, which we all agree wears very well which is why it was used in making coins. Other dexcriptions of black nickel imply that it has very good wear characteristics but is often used for decorative purposes.

My supplier says their gun metal is composed of nickel, zinc and bronze.....I did not ask how they apply it or what the formulation is.

 

[JerrySambrook]

Smitty,
If they are using a nickel based plating, then they are refering to it by color and composition.
The lawyers strike again.

My only issue with your supplier saying he/she uses nickel is the supposed durability of the plating.

I cannot say yeah or nay, as I have not carried one in gunmetal, even though I have made them.

 

[Smitty37]

probably this

Smitty,
If they are using a nickel based plating, then they are refering to it by color and composition.
The lawyers strike again.

My only issue with your supplier saying he/she uses nickel is the supposed durability of the plating.

I cannot say yeah or nay, as I have not carried one in gunmetal, even though I have made them.

The nickel is more than likely applied as a base with the bronze/zinc applied to the nickel - wear durability would then be more related to the bronze/zinc. Nickel is a popular base plating for some applications. The zinc is probably for color and maybe to make the bronze less brittle since that is one of the bad characteristics of bronze. That might be why the one place I read GM pens called it "black nickel" which is a bright nickel base with something applied over it to darken it.

Our problem with this stuff is that there appear to be no real standards.

For instance we have satin, brushed satin and satin chrome - all look pretty much the same but I seriously doubt that they are. Then there is satin pearl, satin silver and pearl silver - they seem to be the same finish but who knows for sure.

Upgrade Gold - means different things from different makers.

Even Gold Titanium .... some manufactures deposit gold colored Titanium and then sputter very thin 24kt gold to match the 24kt gold color...some then plate again. I think this is what Woodcraft calls Woodcraft Gold.

Sterling Silver - only means solid silver it does not necessarily meet the rather rigid requirements of jewelry for claiming sterling silver.

It's enough to drive a man to drink.

 

[flyitfast]

Whew!

 

[longbeard]

Whew!

I'll second that "Whew" with a WHEEWWW! I need a nap now

 

[sbwertz]

My carry pen is gunmetal. It has been in my purse for 3 1/2 years with NO sign of wear. It shares a pocket in my purse with a nail file, several flash drives, a nail clipper, small swiss army knife, etc. and still looks as good as when I made it.

 

[Bigj51]

My carry pen is gunmetal. It has been in my purse for 3 1/2 years with NO sign of wear.

That is strange. I carry a vertex click in gunmetal and it wears absolutely horribly. If I am making a pen to look good AND be durable then I select black titanium every time. The only reason I bought the vertex in gunmetal is that they do not offer it in black titanium.

 

[avbill]

Stainless Steel will give you either a high polish look or you can dull it for that satin look. And if it solid SS it will never wear!

 

[sbwertz]

This was one of the very first pens I made on a slimline kit I got from smitty's pen works in gunmetal. I suppose it depends on what kit and who makes it.

Sharon

My carry pen is gunmetal. It has been in my purse for 3 1/2 years with NO sign of wear.

That is strange. I carry a vertex click in gunmetal and it wears absolutely horribly. If I am making a pen to look good AND be durable then I select black titanium every time. The only reason I bought the vertex in gunmetal is that they do not offer it in black titanium.

 

[joefyffe]

Smitty,
If they are using a nickel based plating, then they are refering to it by color and composition.
The lawyers strike again.

My only issue with your supplier saying he/she uses nickel is the supposed durability of the plating.

I cannot say yeah or nay, as I have not carried one in gunmetal, even though I have made them.

The nickel is more than likely applied as a base with the bronze/zinc applied to the nickel - wear durability would then be more related to the bronze/zinc. Nickel is a popular base plating for some applications. The zinc is probably for color and maybe to make the bronze less brittle since that is one of the bad characteristics of bronze. That might be why the one place I read GM pens called it "black nickel" which is a bright nickel base with something applied over it to darken it.

Our problem with this stuff is that there appear to be no real standards.

For instance we have satin, brushed satin and satin chrome - all look pretty much the same but I seriously doubt that they are. Then there is satin pearl, satin silver and pearl silver - they seem to be the same finish but who knows for sure.

Upgrade Gold - means different things from different makers.

Even Gold Titanium .... some manufactures deposit gold colored Titanium and then sputter very thin 24kt gold to match the 24kt gold color...some then plate again. I think this is what Woodcraft calls Woodcraft Gold.

Sterling Silver - only means solid silver it does not necessarily meet the rather rigid requirements of jewelry for claiming sterling silver.

It's enough to drive a man to drink.

Thanks Smitty! My wife hasn't heard that one YET!!! :smile-big:

 

[Smitty37]

My carry pen is gunmetal. It has been in my purse for 3 1/2 years with NO sign of wear.

That is strange. I carry a vertex click in gunmetal and it wears absolutely horribly. If I am making a pen to look good AND be durable then I select black titanium every time. The only reason I bought the vertex in gunmetal is that they do not offer it in black titanium.

I suspect that might be because the Vertex has the rather sharp corners where wear would occur faster than on a rounded piece. I think I'd stick to a harder finish with that kit also Chrome/Rhodium/Black TI or Gold Tn.