feeler for 50 cal pen parts

[Daniel]

NOTE!!! I am not looking for immediate commitments to buy. I am looking for some idea of what sort of demand there could be over the long term for these. I don't think that every person that ever wants to make 10 pens should have to buy 100 bullets to get it done. and frankly suppliers sort of laugh when I only ask for 100. the norm, they sell cans of 600 bullets and suggest you buy 3 to 30 of them. no kidding.

I am gauging enterest for bullets and casing to make the 50 cal pen.(see tutorial on home page by Paul Sherman)http://content.penturners.org/articles/2007/50BMG.pdf

Cost on these could vary wildly. I have found prices on bullets from .22 ea clear up to $2.50 ea. with quality, quantity and availablity all being factors.

The brass casing look like they are anywhere from .65 ea to $1.00 ea.

other factors concerning bullets. Incendiary bullets are considered hazardous materials and are very expensive to ship. Also it is illegal for me to resell them as I am not a licensed gun dealer. the way around this is I must make them not be bullets. I would do this by removing the incendiary material and the lead core. I still have a question as to wether they would be considered bullets at this point. in truth they are then only bullet jackets, but I am not yet clear on what restrictions would apply to mailing those. drilling the tip out would make them unusable as bullets but woudl require a lot of time.
Just understand that there are some questions that coudl effect the final cost of these.

so for the sake of geting an idea of how much interest there is for these. I will use a price of $5.00 for a bullet and casing plus shipping. if you only want 10 or so sets I think they could be mailed for the $4.60 flat rate envelope price. for more figure the next size up in flat rate boxes $8.95.

I have a few questions about bullets that maybe others can give some insight to. Pauls article says M17 tracers bullets. there are other styles of bullets out there. I have seen pens made from Hornady HMAX bullets which are a high quality target bullet with an aluminum tip.
(Very expensive)
there are also "Ball" bullets. these have no incendiary material and avoid the Haz. Mat. shipping costs. they are also armour piercing rounds so I do not know if they will work for being drilled out.
any help in what bullets will and will not work would help. Tracers so far look like the lowest price bullets, but it would be worth a few cents to not have to drill out the hazardous material or pay the extra shipping costs.

I originally was looking to buy 100 rounds, I wanted about 25 of them and was going to offer the rest here. the more I looked I realized that the best price on 50 cal tracer bullets would be to buy 600 at a time. this is about how many can be shipped under one haz. mat. tag costing $20.00. If demand here can get that high I will seriously consider it. Keep in mind that is a lot of bullets for me to process, not to mention a lot of material to dispose of. by the way I did find info on how to despose of it. I can reuse the lead myself. and the incendiary material can be reduced to the basic magnesium pretty easily.

Either post here what you would be interested in or in respect to the lurkers, e-mail me. Not to hold you to anything but a number you think you would want would be helpful. Keep in mind these materials are starting to run low, most suppliers are out of stock with no idea when they will get more. (probably when the war in Iraq is over) most bullets available where made pre 1989 with no new ones showing up since then. in short, if I can even find some to actually buy is starting to be a big question.
Sorry this is so long but the idea is getting very complicated.

 

[rhahnfl]

If you could pull it off to sell them for $5.00 for a bullet with casing I'd be in for at least 10. Don't think the armor piercing are a good choice... would be a bear to drill. Good luck and just be safe.

 

[Tonto]

As a shooter and reloader, suppliers of bullets and brass are familiar to me and one of the best sources of surplus military brass and bullets is Pat's Reloading in Massillon, Ohio seen at www.patsreloading.com
Metal prices and the Iraq War have changed the price dynamic and supply but 50BMG brass and bullets do seem to be available most times and in bulk quantities, a buck each is a good working number. To be sure, many of the 50 caliber projectiles are armor piercing (steel or tungsten core) or incendiary/tracer or some combo of all three and I don't imagine much fun to deal with, in fact the I/T rounds ship with the extra HAZMAT fee
I used to live 30 miles from Pat's, not any more but could easily see someone in NE Ohio working their way down there for a crack at supplies at smaller quantities as a walk-in, and maybe even Pat and the gang would want a pen or two or even offer finished pens on their site. If you GOOGLE surplus brass or powder you'll find a couple of ther dealers out there too.

 

[Daniel]

Tonto, Thank you so much, I called Pat and actually got someone to answer the phone. He told be that the ball ammo will work the same as tracers and I will avoid haz mat charges. I have 100 bullets and casings on the way but will take about a month cause they are so busy.
Chris there will be plenty and I will let you know when I get them and see if you are still interested.

 

[Tonto]

I don't think you need a license to sell bullets, just firearms and loaded ammunition require a Federal Firearms License. Projectiles are inert and you could argue you are just selling scrap metal, same with empty cartridge cases. Of course local laws may vary and I would check before I did anything in places like California, New York City, New Jersey and Massachusetts to name but a few. Glad Pat's worked out, his web site tells they are very busy so I'm glad you were able to talk to him and work something out. The brass may be once-fired and dirty unless Pat sells tumbled and clean brass as well. Let me know if you need some tumbling help to clean the brass and even the bullets. The 50 BMG is a 30/06 case on steroids. Pulled bullets sometimes have marks from the collet that grips the bullet when pulled from the case. Fired brass may need resized necks to hold the bullet as well, dies are available but pricey. In NV I'll bet there is somebody close who reloads 50 BMG ammo who is setup for this operation.

 

[great12b4ever]

Daniel I would be interested in 10-15 of the bullets and casings.

 

[pssherman]

I have about 200 each of the casings and bullets available that I would be willing to sell. I will post options and prices in the individual classified. If there is sufficient interest I would be willing to become a supplier of military casings and bullets.

The armor piercing bullets are extremely hard and would require a special drill bit to drill them. The ball rounds usually have a boat tail back end. This works well for cross refills but may be a problem for the parker refills.

Paul in AR

 

[Daniel]

Tonto, I am not clear on restictions on just bullets. So I assume the worst. I did see one comment somewhere that mentioned even empty jackets being restricted in some states. and that even the pen would probably be taken from you if you where bording a plane or federal building. Those comments may very well have been way out on the fringe of concerns though. So far Pat has not asked any info like he would have to have if I was buying live ammo or a gun.
there is not hazardous material issue with the ball ammo but I will still remove the lead when I get them to reduce remailing weight, and avoid any license issues.
Paul, Do you think the tail could be drilled out for the 3/8ths tube? I can find Traces listed on line in about 5 places, non of them accept orders on line, and I cannot get anyone on the phone or to answer e-mails. I have been trying to order this stuff for almost 6 days. The one person I did reach, poly gun bag, where out of stock on tracers. I am sure I can change my order with pat to tracers but it will double the cost of the bullets. Basically he suggested the balls to save me money. All I was thinking about was if it was still a lead core bullet.

 

[Daniel]

Guys, I just took a look at Pauls prices. Looks like a full service selection so don't feel obligated to me on this. Actually I sort of hope to be able to sell all the bullets I have comeing as pens to the gun clubs around here. We have 50 cal BMG competitions here. Actually getting any in a timely manner is not looking good for me anyway. Nevada has the loosest gun laws of almost any state, you can still walk through the middle of town with a six shooter on your hip, Lots of open spaces, and tons of businesses to support shooters. There are at least three gun clubs within 30 minutes of me. I hope to introduce the 50 cal pen to them as awards in there matches or just as an item to carry in there gun shops.

 

[rhahnfl]

I wouldn't carry a cartridge/bullet pen on me or in my baggage while traveling. Don't know why they (TSA) would, other than they can take pretty much what they want and they really don't have to answer for it. When in doubt mail, UPS or Fedex.

 

[pssherman]

Daniel wrote

...Paul, Do you think the tail could be drilled out for the 3/8ths tube?...

Daniel,
3/8ths is the smallest size that will remove all of tracer material. For tubes smaller than 3/8ths you will need to put the tube in a dowel and turn it to fit. The tracer rounds do have lead in the forward portion of the bullet which I prefer to remove for my pens.

Chris,
I agree, mailing them is the best way to transport them. I sent 6 308 sized casing/bullet pens overseas with a missionary. He put them in his checked luggage and ended up being called by security to open the baggage. When they found out that they were pens they allowed them to go. It was a hassle that could have been avoided by mailing them.

Paul in AR

 

[Daniel]

Paul, I ment to ask about being able to ream out the tail end of the ball bullet to 3/8 so the cigar lower tube will still fit. Sounds like 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. I can drill out tracer material, or ream out the boat tail. The ball is still lead core but if the cavity is to small the entire length of the bullet that could be a pain.
If not I can always make cross pens with these.

 

[pssherman]

Originally posted by Daniel

Paul, I ment to ask about being able to ream out the tail end of the ball bullet to 3/8 so the cigar lower tube will still fit. Sounds like 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. I can drill out tracer material, or ream out the boat tail. The ball is still lead core but if the cavity is to small the entire length of the bullet that could be a pain.
If not I can always make cross pens with these.

Daniel,
I took some measurements of a ball bullet. If you drill for a cigar tube you will lose about 1/8 inch of the tail. So there will plenty of length to secure the tube. Follow the instructions in the tutorial for the drilling. I would use a 25/64 drill bit and drill deep enough so that the total length is correct for the cigar kit that you have. The only difference would be that you are drilling through the lead instead of the tracer material.

BTW, my cigar tubes are 0.386 inch which is a little larger than 3/8 inch.

Paul in AR

 

[Daniel]

Paul, I think I will leave my order with Pat's as it is then. Mainly I am just plain worn out trying to get ahold of the bullets. I was thinking of melting out the lead, I cast my own fishing sinkers. and then drilling the jacket for the tube.

 

[pssherman]

Originally posted by Daniel

... I was thinking of melting out the lead, I cast my own fishing sinkers. and then drilling the jacket for the tube.

Sounds like a good idea. Make sure you drill deep enough, but too deep, so that the total length of bullet and tube matches your kit. Alternatively, you could drill just deep enough to hold the tube securely. Then cut the tube to provide the correct averall length. Also, there will be a sharp edge at the tail. The tail end makes contact with the dowel in the casing, so it would be a good idea to flatten the edge somewhat.

Paul in AR

 

[Jarheaded]

Daniel,
Please make sure that you cover your 6 on this deal. In some states, tracers and armor piercing rounds are illegal. Not to mention the danger involved with drilling out material that you may not be familiar with. I don't know your background, but I am a retired Marine and I spent a lot of time training others in the proper use and handling of explosives. I am just worried that someone may try to drill into something that they don't know about and get hurt. Not just you, but anyone that reads a little about how to do it on the internet and goes and trys to do it. People need to remember that the internet is a great source of misinformation. Please feel free to PM me if I can help with any info or if you have any questions.
Stay safe,
Johnnie

 

[Daniel]

Johnnie, Good point and from what little I have learned these rounds are dangerous for several reason. all of them are illegal in several states. some of them are illegal in even more. Non of them are illegal here in Nevada but I can also walk down the middle of the street with a loaded pistol on my hip as long as it is in sight. Read very loose gun laws in my state. So if grandpa left a bullet behind and you think it might be a good idea to drill holes in it. DON'T there are versions of this bullet that can explode. I know of 2 out of 40 bullet styles that will work for this. not very good odds if your just feeling lucky, or have some random bullet laying around.

 

[rincewind03060]

I would be interested in 10 sets if you set this up at the $5 price plus or minus a bit

 

[pssherman]

Originally posted by Daniel

Johnnie, Good point and from what little I have learned these rounds are dangerous for several reason. all of them are illegal in several states. some of them are illegal in even more. Non of them are illegal here in Nevada but I can also walk down the middle of the street with a loaded pistol on my hip as long as it is in sight. Read very loose gun laws in my state. So if grandpa left a bullet behind and you think it might be a good idea to drill holes in it. DON'T there are versions of this bullet that can explode. I know of 2 out of 40 bullet styles that will work for this. not very good odds if your just feeling lucky, or have some random bullet laying around.

Daniel,
In Arkansas, we can get a permit to carry a concealed weapon.

When I first considered doing 50 BMG pens, I went to Ebay to get the casings and bullets. The first set were the ball rounds which are all lead inside. When I went back to get more, I couldn't find them. I did find many other types of bullets though. I contacted the sellers to see if they knew if they could be drilled out. None of them knew for sure. So I did some research on the 50 BMG bullets. The tips are color coded with paint to indicate what is inside. Ball rounds have no paint on the tips. The tracer rounds are maroon. The remaining types have 1 or both of, aromor piercing (AP in the name) or incendiary (I in the name). These are not suitable for drilling. A search on the tracer material revealed that it is similar to the common flare. Does not explode, burns hot and hard to put out, but also hard to ignite. The pressure and temperature present in the chamber when the round is fired is sufficient to ignite the tracer. The material is soft and crumbly and does not cause the drill bit to get hot. Note also that these bullets are stored in closed cases in the desert sun and can get very hot without any danger of igniting.

Paul in AR

 

[pssherman]

If there are any others interested in getting the 50 BMG casings and bullets, I have an ad in the individual classified forum.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=32124

The bullets have the tracer material removed.

Paul in AR

 

[Daniel]

Paul, You can get a concealed weapons permit here also. you can carry an unconcealed weapon any time. still the wild west out here. as for the combustable stuff in the bullets. I think the tracer material is sulfer and other combustables, it si the incendiaries that have the magnesium and other very hot burning materials. Not really sure cause I was pretty much passing on anything that was armour piercing or incendiary. At first I was pretty much looking only for tracers but that search got sort of frustrating. I can really see point of Johnnies warning. Even with a tutorial and everything spelled out there ahs been lots of motivation to start plowing my own row. that could have a nasty outcome in lots of cases with the selection of bullets out there. the first one that always comes to mind is the armour piercing incendiary. It is very common and someone tired of looking for the right bullet could easily get those. be struggling to drill through the hardened tip and build enough heat to ignite the magnesium in them. I saw some video of the tracers and incendiaries. usually the material would get seperated from the bullet at impact and you could see it laying on the ground burning. It burns for a lot longer than I thought it would.

 

[pssherman]

Daniel,
I just remembered something about the ball rounds. There is a soft steel (easy to drill) core with lead in front of and behind it. Looking at the back of the round you will see the lead inside the boat tail. That soft steel plug can be drilled to whatever size tube you are using so that the wooden dowel is not needed. Just make it as close of a fit as you can because you want the tube to be centered and straight in the hole. If there is much play then there may be problems with binding when fully assembled. DAMHIKT. However this can be remedied with some sandpaper or a file.

Note to those who may want to try to find there own bullets.
I found a site (can't remeber where now) that showed the cross sectional view, materials with descriptions, and the color coded tip paints used.

Descriptions of suitable 50 BMG bullets:
Ball or dummy round: has a boat tail end, no colored paint on the tip, lead core is visible from behind.

Tracer round: tip is colored MAROON (only 1 color), back end is cylindrical, a red sealing cap (soft plastic) is visible from behind.

All other tip colorations (1 or 2 colors) have either a hardened steel core or incendiary material. These are NOT suitable for drilling.

These color codes also apply to the 7.62 NATO (military) bullets which are the same size as a commercial 30 caliber bullet (308, 30-30, 30-06, etc.).

Paul in AR

 

[Daniel]

Paul, I just bought a beall collet chuck to do the drilling. As far as I could tell that is the best way to get it done accurately. Also getting a chuck for the collets for my mini metal lathe. don't know of any way I can get it better than that. will let you know how it goes if I ever get everything. still waiting for everything to arrive.

 

[pssherman]

Originally posted by Daniel

Paul, I just bought a beall collet chuck to do the drilling. As far as I could tell that is the best way to get it done accurately. Also getting a chuck for the collets for my mini metal lathe. don't know of any way I can get it better than that. will let you know how it goes if I ever get everything. still waiting for everything to arrive.

Daniel,
The bullet diameter is 0.510 inch. Will the collet expand this much? I use a utility chuck with the jaws that are about 3/8 inch inside diameter and smooth. The pin jaws have a serrated surface and can grip very small. If the bullet spins while drilling, the serrations leave deep grooves, while the smooth jaws leave a lightly scraped surface.

Paul in AR

 

[Daniel]

Paul, the collets have about 1mm of movement if the half inch collet does not fit then I go to the next larger one 17/32. they grip like the pin jaws do but from 8 or 16 points rather than 4. They are made to be used in metal lathes and milling machines so I would not expect them to slip.

 

[Daniel]

Update, so if you are still waiting hopefully I have made it worth your while.
I am pretty sure that I have everything on the way, finally.
as to just when it will all arrive ???, but I expect to have everything in a week.

Now for the really good news. rather than buy a bullet and casing from me for $5.00. and then have to buy a cigar pen kit for $6.75. how about just buying everything in one kit.
I have managed to put this package together!!! Everything you need to make the 50 cal. pen for $7.50 except the spring for the parker refill, I am working on that. that is like getting the bullet and casing for $.75 And only offered to my very good friends here at the I.A.P. (maybe I should write this when I am not so giddy). Actually I am pretty tickled with myself over this one.

Basic 50cal. Cigar pen, kit $7.50 (scroll down for possible slimline kit)
Only 75 available but will try to put more together if demand and availability allow. ( I had to swing a bit of a deal to get some of the parts)

Kit includes:
Cigar pen refill
Cigar lower tube
Cigar Upper tube
Cigar transmission adaptor
Cigar transmission
50 cal. tracer bullet (tracer material removed only)
50 cal. Casing. Neck sized for Bullet
can't beat that with a stick.

Now as if that is not enough. I will also throw in the frills. Please keep in mind I have never drilled a bullet. In the remote chance that I cannot do it I will cancel all requests for drilling. not much danger but at least I forewarned.

if you want the lead removed, bullet drilled, bullet polished, or casing polished. add the following amounts to the basic kit price.

lead removed from bullet casing. $0.25
Bullet casing drilled for Cigar refill. $2.00
Bullet polished to 12000 MM $2.50
Polish Brass cartridge $2.50

The full deal would come to a total of $15.00 and you save the cost of the $6.75 cigar kit.
Prices do not include postage. $4.60 priority flat rate envelope for up to approx 18-20 kits. Real guess there.

Note the prices for drilling etc. are subject to change once I have actually started doing some of them. Right now I plan to do each part a certain way and my prices are based on my estimate of how much time I will have to spend doing each step. So that is my second disclaimer for basically being a newbie at this.


Slimline kit (possible 100 available if they come in)
I have also ordered 50cal Ball bullets, and casings. the ball bullet will not work as well for the cigar kit but will work fine for a slimline kit pen. I do not have all the parts for this kit as I do for the Cigar kit above. I am also not as certain they are going to come. I ordered these about 3 weeks ago and am still waiting for them to be shipped. I new at the time I ordered them there was going to be a delay.

slimline kit $5.00
kit includes:
50 cal ball bullet (only has lead inside)
50 cal Brass Cartridge sized for bullet.

I will drill polish etc. for the same prices as the Cigar kit above.

First come first serve I will not collect payments until I actually have the parts and have processed them to the point you want them. But starting at the top of this thread the first poster has first call at these. I will contact the people that have already posted, confirm that they are still in the runing and start making a list. when the number available has been reached I will not take any more orders.
I will only accept posts on this thread as requests just to keep it all in order.
Thanks

 

[Daniel]

I am moving this thread to Individual classifieds as that is really where this one should be now.