Bushings

[Joey-Nieves]

Bushings are the guide we use to make are pens, I know that we can make them or use calipers. But the truth is that most of us go ahead and buy the bushings when we buy the pen.

How many of you have found that the bushings you just bought have a different number but are the same as a set you already have? We have in our library a spread sheet that tells you the part number, dimensions and all other useful information. I found once, but lost it, a quick reference guide that some one compared the most used kits and matched the most similar ones.

I got board and download Wayne's charts, converted them to Excell, placed them on one sheet (that's how he had it once upon a time) and converted drill sizes to decimals (for accuracy) and sorted the list by Style, drill size, bushing number, tube size, and bushing dimensions.

This is when I got surprised and angry, The "big guys" don't play nice with us, not only do they change the name of the kits to confuse us (EX. Cambridge and Roman Harvest) they specify sizes in different equivalents and add insignificant dimensions to the bushing sizes to make them look different. One kit would ask for a bushing .444 for the front and .444 for the back and the other kit would require .445 for both ends, in real numbers this is .0005 difference because it's a circle and we split the difference. This is less than a flea's hair, so if you own on of these kits, the bushings are the same
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In the Style 1, one tube pens, there are 240 different pens and over 150 bushing sets, but when you compare the numbers thee are only 23 different bushing sets and if you where to combine them you would need even less.

Maybe we should start storing our bushing by size and not by kits and using Wayne' bushing chart.

Drill bit's are also bamboozled, some kits are said to require a drill bit in fractions and another in it's metric equivalent.

My advise to all newbies is to take the time to actually look up the measurements equivalents before you buy, our profession in my case or your hobby can be very expensive without the extra cost.

I'm in the middle of analyzing Style 2 and they are even worse. As soon as I find a comprehensive way of compiling the sheet I'll submit it to Wayne's consideration.

Thoughts?
Joey

 

[JimB]

If you have an iPhone or iPad you can also download the app and it will do all that for you by using the search function.

As far as drill bits go, like many I just bought a full set of bits from HF. That covers everything I need for the pens I make.

It isn't 'the big guys' not playing nice. It is them running their business. It is just like anything else you can buy anywhere else. Food, a car, washing machine etc. many of them are basically the same under different names but they don't tell you that. The same for the tools we buy. Our suppliers do not get together and create the same item. That could even be illegal. They may also have the rights to a name so another company that doesn't want to pay for the use of the name makes a similar design and gives it another name.

 

[jttheclockman]

My thoughts

You can make some nice charts and I am sure they will be well received and be of value to some.

But my thoughts are, all you said has been said many times. Having a nice fractional set of drill bits with letter bits can eliminate buying drill bits all together and you now have a bit for every size needed. If you have one of those odd in between bits the next size up will not hurt. That tube hole does not have to be exact especially if using epoxy to glue the tube in or some like that expanding glue. All materials do not drill the same so you made need to make adjustments on the fly even after buying the recommended bit.

As far as the bushings go, here is how I look at that. I do not make many different kits so buying bushings for the kit is the cheapest part or item in the construction of the kit. Again some people do not even use bushings. Now if you buy many different kits than maybe you can get away with trying to use another kits bushings. But many of these manufactorers make the kits just fractions different and those differences can show up in the finish product unless your use use of calipers is right on. It is a selling point for them but again the cost of bushings is so minimal to the entire project it is not worth the effort but if that is something you think needs to be done then go for it.

Good luck and happy turning and those are my thoughts.

 

[Edgar]

Joey,
At the present time, the Bushings & Charts project (pdf files and app) consists of over 1,400 kits from 18 suppliers. This has been a one-man crusade by our librarian, Wayne Wracinowski, for a number of years. Wayne tries hard to document bushing & tube dimensions as accurately as possible, but all he can do is go by the supplier's published instructions (when we can get them). The other alternative would be to buy every possible kit & bushing set and make individual measurements, which just isn't practical. It is also possible that transcription errors sometimes occur - we try, but it is difficult to absolutely verify that every one of those 30-50,000 numbers in the charts were typed exactly right.

So, when you go through the charts and find discrepancies like you noted, it would be helpful if you would actually compare the sizes (say a .444 vs a .445) that you find in the charts to the supplier's actual instructions when you report your findings to Wayne.

If there is an error between the charts and that supplier's instructions, we certainly want to correct the charts and the app and we appreciate all help that we can get in making these charts as accurate as possible.

Please note though - our goal is to accurately document what the supplier's provide - not to correct THEIR data. If the supplier's documentation is incorrect, that information should be sent to the suppliers themselves.

Thanks for your interest in the project.

Edgar

 

[Joey-Nieves]

Joey,
At the present time, the Bushings & Charts project (pdf files and app) consists of over 1,400 kits from 18 suppliers. This has been a one-man crusade by our librarian, Wayne Wracinowski, for a number of years. Wayne tries hard to document bushing & tube dimensions as accurately as possible, but all he can do is go by the supplier's published instructions (when we can get them). The other alternative would be to buy every possible kit & bushing set and make individual measurements, which just isn't practical. It is also possible that transcription errors sometimes occur - we try, but it is difficult to absolutely verify that every one of those 30-50,000 numbers in the charts were typed exactly right.

So, when you go through the charts and find discrepancies like you noted, it would be helpful if you would actually compare the sizes (say a .444 vs a .445) that you find in the charts to the supplier's actual instructions when you report your findings to Wayne.

If there is an error between the charts and that supplier's instructions, we certainly want to correct the charts and the app and we appreciate all help that we can get in making these charts as accurate as possible.

Please note though - our goal is to accurately document what the supplier's provide - not to correct THEIR data. If the supplier's documentation is incorrect, that information should be sent to the suppliers themselves.

Thanks for your interest in the project.


Edgar

Edgar you may have misunderstood me, I'm not talking about Wayne making a mistake, on the contrary Wayne's data is accurate and impeccable, these specs are from the supplier. I found that within the same brand numbers have been "moved" around so that they seem different, but this is just a byproduct of my analysis.

You seem to be under the impression that I am criticizing Wayne's hard work, I do nothing but admire it. All I wanted to do was make a tool that wood allow me to know (and share) how many different kits I could make with one bushing set, in order to not have 3 or 4 sets of the same bushings sitting in my shop.

Most of you guys don't make a large number of different pens, but some of us need to have a wide selection, that means different suppliers, many different kits and bushings. We also need to keep costs down and cross reference charts are helpful.
I turn a lot of pens in a day, Yesterday I made 22 pens, 1 majestic with patterns, 1 Jr Anthony with inlays (by the way same bushing set) 5 mini euro with patterns, 10 mahogany slims 5 Purple heart slims. Today I'm at it again, I need simple things, fewer is better in this case.

Everyone of the people I buy from are good people running a businesses, the smaller ones are the best, ED and Dawn From exotic blanks are fantastic, Ed will even tell you what bushings you really need and will be honest about it, so is Tim at Wood & whimsies, Leroy at Smitty's, Ryan, Fritz and Patric at Woodturningz, to mention a few. So maybe in my original post I may have been unfair to the "big guys" and there way of making businesses, there are 1400 kits from 18 vendors, that have been cataloged in our library, you would think that we have a lot to turn.

Sorry for causing any confusion

 

[JimB]

Joey - if all you are trying to do is find all the kits that a particular set of bushings will fit then you can do that very easily using the iPad / iPhone app if you have an iPad or iPhone.

 

[Joey-Nieves]

Joey - if all you are trying to do is find all the kits that a particular set of bushings will fit then you can do that very easily using the iPad / iPhone app if you have an iPad or iPhone.

I don't have an !phone, I use A note 5 - Android. Wonder If we are going to do a Android App!

 

[JimB]

Joey - if all you are trying to do is find all the kits that a particular set of bushings will fit then you can do that very easily using the iPad / iPhone app if you have an iPad or iPhone.

I don't have an !phone, I use A note 5 - Android. Wonder If we are going to do a Android App!

I don't believe there is anything in the works yet. Edgar and another member did the iPhone app but they don't do Andriod apps. They have offered to assist anyone who volunteers to do an Andriod app. There are a couple threads about this as well as how to use the app.

 

[Edgar]

No problems, Joey. I did understand your intent - I just wanted to emphasize that the purpose of the charts & app is simply to accurately document how each supplier defines & describes the dimensions of their bushings & tubes. We realize that some bushings are virtually identical even though there may be very slight variations in the published dimensions. It is an individual turner's discretion & decision whether or not to use alternate bushings for a different kit. We do try to provide information to help the user make informed decisions about such things with the charts & app (the app is particularly useful for this), but we will not claim that bushing A is equal to bushing B unless we have definitive knowledge of that fact (at least that's our intent).

In cases where a supplier simply uses their own stock number for the original manufacturer's bushing, we sometimes list both bushings - particularly if the suppliers use the same name & description for those kits. However, if a supplier has their own name for a kit and publishes their own instructions, we try to stick with that supplier's data.

We try to transcribe data from supplier instructions exactly as it is published - that's why I requested that you actually check bushings specs against the actual supplier instructions. There are several possibilities:
a. We have made a mistake in our transcriptions - if so, we want to know about it
b. We may have used an older set of instructions -- suppliers do sometimes update their instructions and for some strange reason, they don't usually let Wayne or me know about it. We want to know those things too so we can be sure to reference the correct version.
c. Supplier A may actually publish different dimensions for a given bushing set than supplier B. Perhaps they actually manufacture their own bushings or get them from different sources, or maybe someone just mic'ed them a little differently. In this case, a separate chart containing a list of "near identical" bushings might be useful and we would certainly consider it.
d. Suppliers can make typos just like anyone else. In such cases, if you mic some of their bushings and find that it doesn't match their publications, we would like to know about it, but I'm sure the supplier would like that feedback as well.

There are probably a number of other reasons that the data in our charts might be in error - slightly or grossly. The main point is that we welcome feedback on any discrepancies as well as suggestions for additional kits. The more info that you can supply with your feedback, the easier it will be for us to confirm your data and verify that we need to update the charts & app. It will especially be helpful if you can email us the supplier's instructions when you send in your suggestions so we don't have to go hunting for them. If the instructions are not available on line, we are happy to accept photo copies or screen shots.

We really do appreciate and welcome all feedback that will help us improve the charts & app.

Edgar

 

[ed4copies]

Joey, your statement here:
Yesterday I made 22 pens, 1 majestic with patterns, 1 Jr Anthony with inlays (by the way same bushing set)

is not correct.

I assume you mean the jr majestic is the same as the jr antony. I would have thought that was correct until a few days ago, when I was measuring for a customer.

The CAP on the Jr. Majestic SLOPES!!!! It is the ONLY junior I know of that has this characteristic. .551 and .575 inches are the two dimensions.

The lesson I learned: Even when I am "almost certain" two pens are the same dimension, I check the actual bushings or the hardware. (Of course, I have the luxury of having MOST of the pens made, in my inventory--that helps!!)

Just a FWIW, not meant to be critical of ANYONE!!

 

[Edgar]

Joey - if all you are trying to do is find all the kits that a particular set of bushings will fit then you can do that very easily using the iPad / iPhone app if you have an iPad or iPhone.

I don't have an !phone, I use A note 5 - Android. Wonder If we are going to do a Android App!

I don't believe there is anything in the works yet. Edgar and another member did the iPhone app but they don't do Andriod apps. They have offered to assist anyone who volunteers to do an Andriod app. There are a couple threads about this as well as how to use the app.

That's correct, Jim.
We have the Bat Light out for an Android (or Windows Phone) developer to come in and create alternate mobile versions, but so far no one has stepped up to the plate.

 

[Rockytime]

Don't know if this is useful to anyone but here is what I do. I place my bushings in pen kit bags along with a tag which I hang on a rod. On the tag I write the dimensions of the bushings. I always mike them and use my measurements even they may be slightly different from the kit manufacturers specs. When ordering new kits I check my existing bushings to see if I have one that works. I know everyone has their own system. This is just what I do. Wayne's charts are invaluable.

 

[Joey-Nieves]

Joey, your statement here:
Yesterday I made 22 pens, 1 majestic with patterns, 1 Jr Anthony with inlays (by the way same bushing set)

is not correct.

I assume you mean the jr majestic is the same as the jr antony. I would have thought that was correct until a few days ago, when I was measuring for a customer.

The CAP on the Jr. Majestic SLOPES!!!! It is the ONLY junior I know of that has this characteristic. .551 and .575 inches are the two dimensions.

The lesson I learned: Even when I am "almost certain" two pens are the same dimension, I check the actual bushings or the hardware. (Of course, I have the luxury of having MOST of the pens made, in my inventory--that helps!!)

Just a FWIW, not meant to be critical of ANYONE!!

I stand corrected, I should have said almost, and if you keep the difference in mind you can use the bushings, I just finished assembling the the majestic s and measured the and compared the parts and found that I could have gotten away with it if I would have taken into consideration that one of the body rings on the JR. is a .023 bigger, easy to correct.

 

[jttheclockman]

Have to remember one thing also. The first time you hit those bushings with a tool those measurements go out the door. Even sandpaper take a few clicks off. Buy your self a good set of digital calipers and do it that way. A bushing just gets you in the ballpark. It is up to you to swing the bat.