Bock vs Jowo

[hertzogcraig]

Not sure if I put this in the correct location or not. Being new to kitless pens, I've seen both the Bock and Jowo nibs talked about but don't know much about them. I currently am using the Jowo nibs just because that's what I got. But I'd be curious to hear what you all prefer and why, what are the differences in the 2? Is one easier to use/work with, does one write better than the other? I know just as with anything, everyone has their own preferences, just curious to hear some feedback on the 2. Thanks for the help

 

[darrin1200]

My main beef with the Bock nibs, is that the are not marked with their size. F, B, M,…. If you accidentaly get them mixed up, it's almost impossible to tell which is which unless you have experience and actually writing with them. If you only have a couple, it's ok, but if you keep 100 in stock and have an oops moment….. I've only heard about the nightmares. LOL

Other than that, there have been consistency issues, with Bock in the past, but from what I've heard they have worked that all out.

I think it comes down to what's available for you. I've always used Jowo, so that's what I stay with. From a customer perspective, they either love one, hate one, or don't care. As long as it is tuned well and writing smooth they are happy. I know a couple of makers that use both.

I know this really doesn't help, but it really is a personal preference.

 

[hertzogcraig]

My main beef with the Bock nibs, is that the are not marked with their size. F, B, M,…. If you accidentaly get them mixed up, it's almost impossible to tell which is which unless you have experience and actually writing with them. If you only have a couple, it's ok, but if you keep 100 in stock and have an oops moment….. I've only heard about the nightmares. LOL

Other than that, there have been consistency issues, with Bock in the past, but from what I've heard they have worked that all out.

I think it comes down to what's available for you. I've always used Jowo, so that's what I stay with. From a customer perspective, they either love one, hate one, or don't care. As long as it is tuned well and writing smooth they are happy. I know a couple of makers that use both.

I know this really doesn't help, but it really is a personal preference.

I assumed it would come down to personal preference basically. I plan to stick with the Jowo because thats what I'm set up for, but just wanted some opinions. Thank you for the feedback, it's very much appreciated.

 

[hooked]

Another thing is that with Jowo, you can get penmaker pricing if you buy in bulk from the U.S. distributor. I have not found the same pricing structure with Bock. It is a significant discount for pen sellers, not for nib resale. I believe this is a major factor in why there are so many maker pens with Jowo nibs.

You will find people who only use one over the other, so I find it helpful to be able to work with both brands.

 

[hertzogcraig]

Another thing is that with Jowo, you can get penmaker pricing if you buy in bulk from the U.S. distributor. I have not found the same pricing structure with Bock. It is a significant discount for pen sellers, not for nib resale. I believe this is a major factor in why there are so many maker pens with Jowo nibs.

You will find people who only use one over the other, so I find it helpful to be able to work with both brands.

I'll have to look into the discount. I'll order 1 or 2 Bock also to play with. Thank you

 

[NJturner]

Not sure if I put this in the correct location or not. Being new to kitless pens, I've seen both the Bock and Jowo nibs talked about but don't know much about them. I currently am using the Jowo nibs just because that's what I got. But I'd be curious to hear what you all prefer and why, what are the differences in the 2? Is one easier to use/work with, does one write better than the other? I know just as with anything, everyone has their own preferences, just curious to hear some feedback on the 2. Thanks for the help

From a user perspective, the nibs have their own resilience and feel when writing that changes not only within the brands, but within the materials the nib is made from. I think it's a personal preference. From a maker's perspective, the threads and drill sizing is different between the two. The Bocks also tend to be slightly longer than the Jowo, so some accommodation needs to be made occasionally in the cap depending on how tight you keep the cap to the nib assembly. Both manufacturers have had production issues in the past with the most recent one being a fault in Jowo's casting process causing the nib ink section to crack or arrive cracked. Bock issues go back further, where they seemed to have kind of tried to save some money in production and had a lot of inconsistencies in their products. Both seem to have figured things out and make a pretty quality product today. The big issue, as someone else said here is Bock just refuses to identify their nibs with any size markings. This is a tough one for makers and users because they are hard to differentiate. Sources for either are decent, so most makers can choose what they like to use in their pens. I tend to use more Bock then Jowo, but I can't say that I am hard aligned to either.

 

[d_bondi]

Hello Craig,

As has been said above, they will write a little differently. A Jowo #6 M won't be the same as a Bock #6 M, but it is going to come down to personal preference.

The Bocks do come in some other finishes that are pretty neat, like Black, Red and Purple Lacquer. Check them all out here on Beaufort Ink's site.

I will share my thoughts from a maker perspective, but will tell you others here have far more experience than I do.

I have the drills and taps for both. I have made sections for both. The biggest issue that I have experienced, and have read about (and listed about on the "As the Pen Turns" podcast), is that the with the Bock #6, the drill hole/tap/threads are slightly larger and they are farther back on the nib housing. This means that they are deeper into the section, and closer to the section tenon, which translates into a thinner material near the section tenon and increases the probability of breaking the section during making or after.

Here is a quick photo I took of both nibs and a section. You can see how much closer the threads on the Bock are to the section tenon, it definitely creates a week spot and I have had them fail as I am making them far more frequently that with making Jowo sections.

I hope that this makes sense. Let me know if it does not.

 

[NJturner]

Hello Craig,

As has been said above, they will write a little differently. A Jowo #6 M won't be the same as a Bock #6 M, but it is going to come down to personal preference.

The Bocks do come in some other finishes that are pretty neat, like Black, Red and Purple Lacquer. Check them all out here on Beaufort Ink's site.

I will share my thoughts from a maker perspective, but will tell you others here have far more experience than I do.

I have the drills and taps for both. I have made sections for both. The biggest issue that I have experienced, and have read about (and listed about on the "As the Pen Turns" podcast), is that the with the Bock #6, the drill hole/tap/threads are slightly larger and they are farther back on the nib housing. This means that they are deeper into the section, and closer to the section tenon, which translates into a thinner material near the section tenon and increases the probability of breaking the section during making or after.

Here is a quick photo I took of both nibs and a section. You can see how much closer the threads on the Bock are to the section tenon, it definitely creates a week spot and I have had them fail as I am making them far more frequently that with making Jowo sections.

I hopethat this makes sense. Let me know if it does not.

View attachment 371202

d_bondi - great pic and explanation. Also a big fan of 'As The Pen Turns' here. I think the thickness of the upper seating lip and the general diameter of the Jowo also can be problematic, but it is true the deeper set-in of the Bock threads gets things a might bit tricky when doing the section. As the guys on the ATPT podcast say - it will break when all you have left is one last little piece of a custom blank remaining!

 

[Hippie3180]

Great graphic David, very helpful. There is a Bock distributor here in the U.S. (maybe more than one)but the one I'm aware of sells them and tunes them for free. Bocks are a tad less expensive I think overall, come in a few platings that Jowo's do not. I find that from time to time certain size Jowo#6 are challenging to get hold of, esp when the pen shows are in full swing. I'm not sure about Bocks as I am just getting ready to venture into Bocks.

 

[d_bondi]

Great graphic David, very helpful. There is a Bock distributor here in the U.S. (maybe more than one)but the one I'm aware of sells them and tunes them for free. Bocks are a tad less expensive I think overall, come in a few platings that Jowo's do not. I find that from time to time certain size Jowo#6 are challenging to get hold of, esp when the pen shows are in full swing. I'm not sure about Bocks as I am just getting ready to venture into Bocks.

You are correct Michele, Kirk Speer at PenRealm sells both Jowo and Bock and I think that is who you are thinking of. I used the link to Beaufort Ink's Bock page because it does a nice job of showcasing the different and some unique finish options (as you mentioned).

 

[hertzogcraig]

Hello Craig,

As has been said above, they will write a little differently. A Jowo #6 M won't be the same as a Bock #6 M, but it is going to come down to personal preference.

The Bocks do come in some other finishes that are pretty neat, like Black, Red and Purple Lacquer. Check them all out here on Beaufort Ink's site.

I will share my thoughts from a maker perspective, but will tell you others here have far more experience than I do.

I have the drills and taps for both. I have made sections for both. The biggest issue that I have experienced, and have read about (and listed about on the "As the Pen Turns" podcast), is that the with the Bock #6, the drill hole/tap/threads are slightly larger and they are farther back on the nib housing. This means that they are deeper into the section, and closer to the section tenon, which translates into a thinner material near the section tenon and increases the probability of breaking the section during making or after.

Here is a quick photo I took of both nibs and a section. You can see how much closer the threads on the Bock are to the section tenon, it definitely creates a week spot and I have had them fail as I am making them far more frequently that with making Jowo sections.

I hope that this makes sense. Let me know if it does not.

View attachment 371202

Thank you so much for the explanation, it does make sense. I've only got one kitless under my belt so far and it's with the Jowo #6 and I have more on order. But I'm going to order the taps, dies and a couple of Bocks to play with too. Thank you for the help

 

[hertzogcraig]

Hello Craig,

As has been said above, they will write a little differently. A Jowo #6 M won't be the same as a Bock #6 M, but it is going to come down to personal preference.

The Bocks do come in some other finishes that are pretty neat, like Black, Red and Purple Lacquer. Check them all out here on Beaufort Ink's site.

I will share my thoughts from a maker perspective, but will tell you others here have far more experience than I do.

I have the drills and taps for both. I have made sections for both. The biggest issue that I have experienced, and have read about (and listed about on the "As the Pen Turns" podcast), is that the with the Bock #6, the drill hole/tap/threads are slightly larger and they are farther back on the nib housing. This means that they are deeper into the section, and closer to the section tenon, which translates into a thinner material near the section tenon and increases the probability of breaking the section during making or after.

Here is a quick photo I took of both nibs and a section. You can see how much closer the threads on the Bock are to the section tenon, it definitely creates a week spot and I have had them fail as I am making them far more frequently that with making Jowo sections.

I hope that this makes sense. Let me know if it does not.

View attachment 371202

How is ordering with Beaufort here in the US as they're in the UK?

 

[d_bondi]

How is ordering with Beaufort here in the US as they're in the UK?

If you have a large enough order to make the shipping cost worth while it is fine, they are great. They have some things that are just plain hard to find anywhere else. I was ordering other things, so I picked up a few Bock nibs too.

The main reason I listed/linked to that page, was because it is laid out nicely and quickly displays all the different finishes available.

For Bock here in the US, try Kirk Speer at PenRealm.

 

[PatrickR]

How is ordering with Beaufort here in the US as they're in the UK?

Beaufort is great to buy from, but shipping from England is expensive.
Pen Realm offers a makers discount for Bock nibs. As I remember both sellers require about a $500 purchase.
Personally I use both and have not noticed a big difference. I mainly buy from Pen Realm.

 

[d_bondi]

Beaufort is great to buy from, but shipping from England is expensive.
Pen Realm offers a makers discount for Bock nibs. As I remember both sellers require about a $500 purchase.
Personally I use both and have not noticed a big difference. I mainly buy from Pen Realm.

I don't think there is a minimum for PenRealm.
I see that the site says free shipping for orders over $50.
They do discount for quantity and it is applied in the cart, I think it starts at about 8 units and the discount increases as you purchase more.

 

[hertzogcraig]

If you have a large enough order to make the shipping cost worth while it is fine, they are great. They have some things that are just plain hard to find anywhere else. I was ordering other things, so I picked up a few Bock nibs too.

The main reason I listed/linked to that page, was because it is laid out nicely and quickly displays all the different finishes available.

For Bock here in the US, try Kirk Speer at PenRealm.

Just checked our PenRealm and immediately placed an order. Looking through them, as soon as I saw the Bock nib with the wolf head, I had to order. I lost my dad last year and he loved wolves. So I prefer that nib and the tap how the Bock. Looking forward to this one. Thanks for the help

 

[d_bondi]

Glad to help, looking forward to seeing your results.

As noted above, be a bit more careful with making the section for the Bock, they are a bit tricker and easier to break.
Don't ask me how I know.

 

[PatrickR]

I don't think there is a minimum for PenRealm.
I see that the site says free shipping for orders over $50.
They do discount for quantity and it is applied in the cart, I think it starts at about 8 units and the discount increases as you purchase more.

Must have changed then. I requested info from him for the makers discount a couple years ago. lll check it out.

 

[d_bondi]

Must have changed then. I requested info from him for the makers discount a couple years ago. lll check it out.

Patrick, you might be thinking of Brian at MeisterNibs.
His penmaker pricing structure requires a minimum 50 nib initial order and at that quantity it works out to about $500 for Jowo #6 Steel Nibs.

 

[PatrickR]

Patrick, you might be thinking of Brian at MeisterNibs.
His penmaker pricing structure requires a minimum 50 nib initial order and at that quantity it works out to about $500 for Jowo #6 Steel Nibs.

No, Meister Nibs only sells Jowo. Pen Realm has a very similar program for Bock. Just to check I added 9 nibs to my cart at PR and there was no discount applied.

@hertzogcraig - if you want to get some inexpensive nibs to work with look at osprey, i have found them to be good but a little inconsistent (stay away from the clear housings though)

 

[hertzogcraig]

No, Meister Nibs only sells Jowo. Pen Realm has a very similar program for Bock. Just to check I added 9 nibs to my cart at PR and there was no discount applied.

@hertzogcraig - if you want to get some inexpensive nibs to work with look at osprey, i have found them to be good but a little inconsistent (stay away from the clear housings though)

I'll look at that. Thank you

 

[d_bondi]

No, Meister Nibs only sells Jowo. Pen Realm has a very similar program for Bock. Just to check I added 9 nibs to my cart at PR and there was no discount applied.

@hertzogcraig - if you want to get some inexpensive nibs to work with look at osprey, i have found them to be good but a little inconsistent (stay away from the clear housings though)

Here is a snapshot of my cart at PenRealm with 10 Bock nibs, and the discount shows. Not sure why I was thinking it was at 8. Sorry about that.

 

[PatrickR]

Here is a snapshot of my cart at PenRealm with 10 Bock nibs, and the discount shows. Not sure why I was thinking it was at 8. Sorry about that.
View attachment 371324

That explains it. Thanks. I'm glad to know this.

 

[d_bondi]

That explains it. Thanks. I'm glad to know this.

You bet, and the discount increases if you buy more. I checked and at a quantity of 50 it is down to $12 each.

 

[darrin1200]

There is a new distributor in Canada. The Jowo Shop
Unfortunately, he doesn't carry the full range of sizes. But he does carry a few different platings like the duo-tone or black oxide.
You have to contact him for maker discounts.