A question for the kitless, Custom, Bespoke pen makers

[Paul-H]

Hi all

Still very new to pen making but not new to pens, having arrived here via a VintagePen Collecting and restoration, I have noticed 2 things

1. The majority of custom/bespoke pens do not have a cap clip and do not post, why is this when just about every commercially produced pen has both.

Some would say having both is an important safety feature as a posted cap with clip is unlikely to roll off a desk and ruin an expensive nib.

Is it because most custom nibs used are not expensive and gold, so the desire to protect the nib is not so great

Am I missing something obvious here.

Like I said, just curious.

 

[rherrell]

This is not going to be a popular opinion but I think the reason you don't see clips is because it's difficult to do...WELL. There are plenty of tutorials in the IAP library ( that's how I learned) so that's not an issue. I really don't know, maybe someone can explain it to me.

 

[jalbert]

Most custom pens are so large that there is no need to post the caps.

 

[Dalecamino]

You noticed!? I believe in clips. I also believe in bands on the cap, but they're not always necessary, or practical in some cases. I've only made a few pens with posting threads. I've tried to encourage some to at least add a clip, but soon abandoned that effort. As well as making pens. But I have clips for sale!

 

[Penchant 4]

Would have to agree with Mr. Herrell about the difficulty of doing pocket clips well. It is difficult. It is time consuming. My first one took me days to get correct, and then I decided not to offer it for sale.

Incorporation of a roll stop can mitigate the necessity of a pocket clip. A percentage (no idea of what that percentage might be) of fountain pen owners/buyers/collectors use pen sleeves or other carriers for their writing instruments, so those users might not be interested in a pocket clip.

As to posting, I would agree with Mr. Albert. As non-kit pens get larger, posting the cap can make them unbalanced.

My $0.02

 

[duncsuss]

IMO, YMMV, etcetera ...

Clips: difficulty might be the reason why *most* do not add a clip to the pen, but I suspect the reason many people don't make the effort is they aren't regular fountain pen users so they don't recognise the value. (If they only use ballpoints, I'd suggest they make themself one without the clip and use it for a couple of weeks.)

There are exceptions, of course. Some pens, by their design, won't work with a clip (Nakaya Dorsal, for example), and some pens are designed as "desk pens" that typically come with a "pillow" to rest them in. But the vast majority of regular-shaped pens look incomplete to me if they don't have a clip.

Posting: the argument I heard is "I never post the cap, it could scratch the barrel". Personally, I try to make postable caps so the user has the option - I write with fountain pens all day and like the postable ones more than the non-posters. Highly decorated pens (with engraved overlays, for instance) are unlikely to be an everyday-use pen so it's not an issue.

 

[jttheclockman]

As basically an outsider looking in because I am not a fountain pen user and there actually is no reason a custom pen has to be a fountain pen only, but my thought is a pen is not a pen unless it has a clip. It looks odd without one. The posting thing is not so much an issue. There are plenty of ink pens that are not postable because it would make them so top heavy. Can a cap roll, yes but if it has a clip it will not. I think as some have shown here in the past that a nice clip adds to the artistry of the overall look of the pen.

 

[Hippie3180]

Clips are more challenging to add to a fountain, but I also think it's the lack of clip options. I mean there are some but not a wide selection. Otherwise you need the skills to make your own.

Personally, I wouldn't carry a fountain in my pocket or purse. I consider them more of a desk pen. I understand some are fortified for pocket use, but I'm skeptical about them being a good edc.

I journal daily, I set my cap upright on my desk so it doesn't roll, once done I put my cap back on and store it cap up in my pen holder on my desk. I'm very conscientious of taking care of my nib and preventing rolling.

 

[Aurelius]

In terms of clips, I think a major portion of why we don't see them a lot is that a) there is not a lot of overlap between the turning skills needed to shape a pen and the metalworking skills needed to make a good clip and b) there are not a lot of ready made options on the market.

Obviously, market availability is limited by the fact that every penmaker uses a slightly different design which would necessitate a slightly different clip for each one which would mean a retailer would need to stock a huge number of near one off designs which would be a logistical nightmare, to say nothing of a terrible business model. I think that's why you see a few designs for kit pens that are standadrized around a very few tube sizes and not much else.

 

[monophoto]

Coming at the problem from a different direction - - -

other than the special case of a 'desk pen', is there any situation where a clip would NOT be desirable?

Frankly, I can't think of one. So I'm inclined to agree with Rick that the difficulty of making an appealing clip is the most common reason for not making one.

As to posting - - - I only have one pen that I ever post; it's unusually short, and its unhandy to use it if it is not posted.

 

[jttheclockman]

The point about not being able to make one's own clips to me is contradictory to what custom means. Isn't the whole point of such type pen a means or way of getting away from the kit fountain pens. There are plenty of them out there. just putting some threads on a blank only takes the theme custom so far. Not trying to overstep here but I thought the whole idea is to distinguish the difference between kit and kitless is to do the hard work and make them unique.

I too always looked at fountain pens as desk pens because of the stigma of possibly leaking ink in one's shirt pocket.

 

[hokie]

The pen I made featured on the front page now is actually the first pen I ever made with a clip of my own making. It was A LOT of work. So much grinding, polishing, shaping, etc. I was telling someone recently that if I ever sold pens, clips (of my design) would have to be a several hundred dollar up-charge! I'm sure I could figure out a more efficient way to make them, but that's a ways away.

Another thing I had to deal with was the manner in which the clip is mounted (in my design, at least). Cutting a slot into the cap after it was essentially complete was nerve wracking and could have ruined a lot of work and a beautiful blank if anything went wrong. A good chunk of that up-charge I mentioned earlier would essentially be an insurance policy! haha

I'm kinda toying with the idea of having custom clips made to my own design all they way to the mirror polish phase, but I have no idea what that would entail or what the process would cost. In my clip, I did have a service laser cut the basic blank out of steel sheet, but the rest had to be done by hand... literally. I like what a clip adds visually and the function it provides, so I wish I could use them more often.

 

[anthonyd]

You can produce more pens quickly if you do not add clips or bands. There is a market for these types of pens so if you can produce more pens in a shorter time you will earn more.

 

[moke]

I get the clip....however the kitless I have made don't have one either for the same reason rherrell said, it is a PITA.... but I do not like kits that post. The kit that I buy a lot is the Atrax that does not post. First of all I hate the look of the little screw end for posting, and second it throws the pen off balance. I hate writing with pens that have the cap posted. If it does not post it forces the writer to set the cap down and have a better experience writing.
Just my .02

 

[mredburn]

Clips are labor intensive, you can spend as much time making the clip as the rest of the entire pen or more. Its easy to screw them up and have to start over. Making a clip out of more than just bended sheet metal means you will need casting, forming, forging, engraving, skills on top of making things round skills. You have to have a market that is willing to pay for the intense labor of your pen making as well.

 

[McKenzie Penworks]

Metal work separates the hobbyist from the master. Truth be told if you wanted to learn the skills to take your pen making to the next level, your best bet is to look into goldsmiths and the techniques they use. It's more jewelry than pen when you get into the metalworking details. Mike knows what I'm talking about

On the practical side... I've got a mix of pens with clips and without clips. I'm more likely to slip a pen into my pant pocket than a shirt pocket so I don't much care about a clip. If a pen is a bit short, I like to have it posted for the balance but I'm just as likely to just set the cap down upright on the desk so it doesn't roll away.

 

[derekdd]

I recently commissioned a kitless fountain pen from one of our members and requested a clip.

It turned out great and I use it almost daily. While I'll likely not carry it in my pocket, the clip keeps it from rolling off the side table where it sits with the journal I use it for.

I certainly understand the time/skill/effort difference and don't begrudge anyone for not including one. I agree with @moke and do not like posting the cap on any pen I own. It shifts the weight and makes it more of a chore to write.

It's nice to have options based on one's preferences.

 

[PatrickR]

To the average person nothing says "pen" like a clip. That being said I make some without a clip or roll stop. intended to be a desk pen, placed in a stand.
three piece pens are popular because they are the easiest to make, thus less expensive.
I don't make clips, i buy what is available, and disagree that it is necessary to make them. A formerly active member here sells a lot (as fast as he makes them) of pens, all made with commercial clips and he had polled about it, to the buyers it made little difference.
I don't have the time nor inclination to "master" smithing. I'm sure that I could make a clip from sheet stock but they all look similar.

 

[Laserd]

I think it is a matter of choice. I make both, with and without clips. Postable and non postable.
Check out my website and you'll understand what I mean. It all depends on the theme and the design. You can always use a roll stopper.
Andy.
www.garcia-deschacht.com

 

[derekdd]

I think it is a matter of choice. I make both, with and without clips. Postable and non postable.
Check out my website and you'll understand what I mean. It all depends on the theme and the design. You can always use a roll stopper.
Andy.
www.garcia-deschacht.com

Andy,

I've been admiring your work this past year on YT.

Some amazing pieces. Truly inspirational.

 

[Laserd]

Andy,

I've been admiring your work this past year on YT.

Some amazing pieces. Truly inspirational.

Thank you so much for your kind words.
Happy that you like my work

 

[Brooks803]

If you're worried your cap will roll off the table...simply stand it upright

Most pen owners could care less if it has a clip. They keep them in their nice pen cases for travel, or display boxes at home.

The concept of "a pen must have a clip" is about as outdated as those that swear by it.

If you're buying....buy what you want. If you're selling....make both and cover your bases.

 

[TonyL]

I don't think clips will ever go-away, but I prefer roll-stops. They expose more material and are less obtrusive. I do know there are some real handsome clips out there that can make a pen look even more unique and artistic. However, even as a 60 year old CPA (known for keeping pens and pencils in their pockets), I never kept one in my pocket. I know that I am in the minority in terms of clip preferences. I made some really nice kitless and semi-kitless or whatever the folks call them and they have rolled off my desk many times. I need to drill a small hole in them and stick a RS in them.

Hey! Good to hear from you Jonathan!^^^ I hope you and family are well.

 

[Brooks803]

I don't think clips will ever go-away, but I prefer roll-stops. They expose more material and are less obtrusive. I do know there are some real handsome clips out there that can make a pen look even more unique and artistic. However, even as a 60 year old CPA (known for keeping pens and pencils in their pockets), I never kept one in my pocket. I know that I am in the minority in terms of clip preferences. I made some really nice kitless and semi-kitless or whatever the folks call them and they have rolled off my desk many times. I need to drill a small hole in them and stick a RS in them.

Hey! Good to hear from you Jonathan!^^^ I hope you and family are well.

Hey Tony! We're all doing well. Hope you have the family had a great Thanksgiving!

 

[Carl Fisher]

I'm going to come at this from a different perspective.

Non-clip pens outsell clip pens by a HUGE margin for me and always have. Many of the collectors that buy custom pens are storing them in pen sleeves, trays, boxes or journal loops and clips are just not a concern. I make about 25% of my pens with clips and they sit much longer than a comparable pen without a clip.

I won't even touch the whole handmade vs prefab clip option.