IAP Forum Etiquette

[jeff]

I'm planning to develop a "Guide to IAP Forum Etiquette" and I need your help. I've thought for some time that we need a way to let new members know (and remind us old timers) what sort of conduct we expect on the forum.

I'm not trying to create some vanilla utopia where we all lock arms and sing Kumbaya, but there are some things we can all keep in mind that make this a respectful and enjoyable place to be.

Please give me your thoughts on what should be included, and I'll develop a page of guidelines and post it with our other site guidelines.

I'll start with a couple:

1 - Don't hound someone for a tutorial the instant they post a pen design you've never seen before. Let them enjoy some praise before you beg for step by step instructions on how to duplicate their work. They know you want to make one, and they'll tell you how when they get a chance.

2 - Talk to each other as if you were sitting down with a beer or a cup of coffee (or your conversation-inspiring beverage of choice!) Keep in mind that there are real people with real feelings behind that text on your screen and act accordingly. We can disagree on all kinds of thing, but let's debate, not argue.

I appreciate your thoughtful contributions to this thread.

 

[maxwell_smart007]

Great idea, Jeff. I could post a huge list, but I'll limit it to the first two on my mind:

Think twice before posting a retort - then think again. Taking a second to think about the possible consequences of your posting may make all the difference...

Treat others like you wish to be treated...

 

[Smitty37]

Answer question

When a question is asked...answer the question.

If some one asks what time it is keep in mind that they don't want to know how to build a wrist watch or Big Ben. And, don't tell them they are asking the wrong question....assume they know what they want to find out.

 

[MesquiteMan]

When a question is asked...answer the question.

If some one asks what time it is keep in mind that they don't want to know how to build a wrist watch or Big Ben. And, don't tell them they are asking the wrong question....assume they know what they want to find out.

And PLEASE don't tell them to just search the library or forum. That is not very welcoming. If you don't want to answer the question since it has been asked a million times, just don't reply, please.

 

[Displaced Canadian]

If you aren't sure what somebody meant by their post send them a PM and ask for clarification. Don't write a heated response to something that you may be interpreting wrong.

 

[phillywood]

Be aware that this is an international forum and many members come from different backgrounds and thought patterns, they may not all think American or may not be familiar with the American way of conversing. If a sentence or a statement is not clear like Christopher said ask in a Pm for clarification. Also, be aware that people have different writing style that may not be as clear as if you were to talk to them in person, so don't take everything personally.


Please do not ask questions and throw different topics other than what the main posts suggests and or asks. Ask your Qsn. in a PM.

Be respectful of female members here and use appropriate language.

Be mindful of ladies when addressing a group. this forum is not all for guys.
be respectful of other nationalities and do not go generalizing their nationality with the current world issues and pin them with it. (like not all Muslims would be terrorists, for example).

 

[alphageek]

As I pointed out in a recent thread:

Try and assume the best in what was written. Don't assume that someone is trying to insult you. It is very hard to put emotion into text. Without inflection, facial expressions and other verbal queues it's easy to misinterpret things.

Don't pile one. If there is a negative reply, just adding another won't make it any better.

Remember that you were new once too... It can be hard to find the right answer to a question in search, even when you know what to look for. If someone asks and you think the easy answer is a search, maybe show the answer. You may know something they don't.

Play nice! This group can do amazing things. Both as artists and as people. Strive to be that good guy or gal!

Remember, things in writing will be here a long time. Thing twice before writing something in bad spirits.

 

[bobleibo]

- Don't make it personal. If you don't agree with something, disagree with the concept or idea, not the person.

 

[jskeen]

If you feel the need to point out a negative feature of somebody's work that they have not specifically asked for honest feedback on, consider sending a pm rather than posting a negative comment. No matter how helpful you intend the information to be or how obvious the fault might seem, somebody, either the maker or another reader may assume that you are being obnoxious, condescending, or otherwise unpleasant.

 

[nava1uni]

I think that first and foremost manners would be helpful. I am not talking about being nicey nicey, but just the use of the words please and thank you.
Don't post when upset in response to something you read.
Respect differences in ethnicity, race, gender, lifestyles and religion. Just know that we are all more similar then dissimilar.

 

[jeff]

All great thoughts! Keep 'em coming.

 

[Seer]

If a person asks a question and you feel you could be helpful but the replys to a post may get lost, PM them and at least they have an instant record to lookup that is not amongst other posts I do this more than post.

 

[TurnaPen]

And if you know the answer is already in the Library, simply post them a link and say, "this link may be helpful"; Amos

 

[DocStram]

If your post begins with . . . . "This isn't really political . . " then it probably is political and falls outside the bounds of our terms of service.

Jokes with ethnic or racial innuendos . . . are slurs even though you make think it is funny. (ie: "them meslims") The same holds true for using demeaning terms that cast a specific group in a negative light. For example, "that's retarded" or "he must ride the short bus". Some of us may actually have family members who are intellectually disabled or may be disabled our self.

Attacking a member in private, via emails or pm's, is out of the boundaries of appropriate behavior.

PS Please refrain from sending an inflammatory pm to me in response to this post . . . I've already received more than my share.

 

[Gary Max]

If you tell someone to "Kiss your A$$" that's still cussing

 

[GoodTurns]

If you wouldn't say it in front of your mother or grandmother, you probably need to take a second to think about how you can re-phrase (or hold your tongue!). yes, we have all heard those words before, doesn't mean we need to hear/see them again!

be welcoming. we all benefit from every new member. you never know where the spark of creativity will come from, and it may well be "the new guy" who looks at things a little differently.

don't harp. when it's over, let it go and move on. when a moderator says "getting close" or "enough", LISTEN. they are doing a largely thankless job for completely absent compensation, a little respect is in order. (I think they do get their dues waived during their time as moderators!:wink

 

[nativewooder]

Etiquette

Would you consider, at some point in the future, requiring all users or beginning with newbies, to use their actual name? I know some people have used a moniker for years and may be offended that they might have to use their real name. Just a thought, as it is happening on some of the woodturning forums.

 

[PenMan1]

My wife says that my posts on the IAP should be more representative of the language that I use in church, and less representative of the language that I use in the shop.

I reminded her that I spend one day per week in church and six days per week in the shop!

I am really trying hard, but I'm sure I'll slip sometimes.

Respectfully committed.

 

[WoodNutOntario]

Keep posts to the point.
If someone asks for criticism, be honest but fair, don't take a stab at them because you do not find their design to your liking.
A few people post quite harsh remarks that really are not worth the time it took to type them.
If you have something to say, say it in a nice way and try and keep it positive.

If the poster asks for comments don't just post that you don't like the design.
Be fair and honest and say what you would thinwould maybe look good.

Each pen turner has their own unique ideas and we all bring so much variety to the table.
Nit picking is not required...

As an aside, a few people have left other sites for these reasons and i am also starting to drift away and become more homely here because it has improved a lot and is a great place to be!

Just my 2 cents!

Keep up the great work IAP!!!

Andrew

 

[devowoodworking]

Being respectful of longstanding members, seems like the most important thing to remind 'newbies'...this was their home long before we came along! :wink:

 

[Jim Smith]

One of the issues that concerns me the most is when some people seem to think that it's okay to be rude, disrespectful or even aggressive via PM or email. There have been a number of occasions where we have lost some terrific members because they feel that they've been attacked via PM or email and they just don't want the hassels so they drop out or at least stop posting.

I think it should be understood that if someone crosses the line in any PM or email, that the PM or email will be forwarded to the moderator who will handle it at his/her discression. This can be anything from a simple warning to baning the person from access to the site. We've lost the input on some of the most talented and creative people on this site because of people flaming them via PM.

Jim Smith

 

[bitshird]

Pretty much everything that has been written applies, do remember we all have individual personalities, so don't expect everyone to act, write, or think as you do, allow them there differences.

 

[mredburn]

Although its been covered in other ways but not specifically expressed. It should be pointed out that there are minors that are members here.

 

[alphageek]

If you tell someone to "Kiss your A$$" that's still cussing

Agreed... as a matter of fact as a moderator all "short" profanitys, cutting characters out or acronyms are almost as bad as actual swearing... remember that you only need to be 13 to join IAP!

 

[jttheclockman]

Wow this is all well and good but what does it all do??? If we have to write these things down then where did we go wrong. Who is going to take the time to read them?? Maybe good for a month or two then we need that reminder again and again. and again.

Hey I am not saying this is not a good idea and in fact alot of sites have things like this as you sign in. What I think is happening and this is only an opinion that the internet world is changing. Our mentality is changing in that because we can't see each other how can they hurt us. I bet things would be a whole lot different if everyone used a web cam. We say things we ordinarily do not because we know we can get away with it. We live in a fast pace world. we probably speak faster than we ever did without thinking. We do this so we can move on to the next topic. People are getting more and more confortable using these electronic devices. I saw alot of things that are similar when Citizen Band Radios first came out. There are some parrallels there. The more confortable people got with them the more vulgar the attitudes got.

I guess what I am saying hopefully things will change and it actually is up to each and every individual and no list is going to change us. Hopefully it will remind us as to what is expected of us as we visit a forum. I do believe this site is not as bad as some may think. I have seen worse. Yes it may need that kick in the butt once in awhile but it still is friendly. The more members the more personalities you have and sometimes things get tested.

This is just an observation and Jeff you do a great job here with keeping this one of the most sought out sites around. Expanding every day and though we lose some members and hopefully they find their way back, we still add more talent to help us grow and with growing comes growing pains. Keep up the good work and look forward to reading the list.

 

[ed4copies]

"Jim Smith" brings up an interesting point, Jeff.

TOS say we may not forward emails to mods (as I READ the TOS---I could be wrong here).

But, I have heard from many very respected members that they receive nasty PM and email because someone thinks they should "share" more.

The emails and PM's were generated because of threads here---they ought to be subject to SOME rules too.
NO good answer, just an observation.


The other sore point is the definition of "share".

When you want ME to tell YOU everything I know, and you have nothing to contribute, we are NOT SHARING!!! I am TEACHING---for which people are paid---it's called EDUCATION.

So, if you have something to contribute, we can SHARE. This is regularly the case in the casting forum, where pressure rates and other new practices are discussed among those who have done a lot of casting and everyone can benefit.

But, when you want to know the specific way Curtis cleans his cactus---that is EDUCATION and should be completely VOLUNTARY for Curtis to tell you (educate) or NOT tell you (HIS RIGHT to his knowledge).

 

[alphageek]

I agree that Jim Smith raises an interesting point... I think that is a point worth come clarification in moderation rules/recommendations. I'll open a thread with the Mod team to discuss, and hopefully we get some input from Jeff too in that.

 

[Smitty37]

Don't Apologize

Don't aplogize before your post. If you must start a post with "I'm sorry to have to say this, but"... you probably don't have to say it.

 

[snyiper]

Aside from the things like simple mannors, respect and good old common courtesy we can disagree on points in a adult fashion. I think because we have become a faceless society we have become more agressive. I truely think if people were face to face tones as well as comments would change, we need to try and keep this in prespective as we type. If you would not say it to your parents or to the person face to face perhaps consider not saying it at all.

 

[maxwell_smart007]

Excellent stuff thus far.

One more point: Try your best to keep your attitude positive. No one likes to hang around a group that is constantly lamenting about how things have changed or how bad things are now - if we want change, we can begin to bring it through our own actions.

(That is the very reason that I stopped hanging around the staffroom at work - bad attitudes lead to poor environments and can be poisonous to the rest of the staff!)

 

[LEAP]

If you ask for a critique dont be offended if someone gives you an honest opinion. We all have personal likes and dislikes and they do not match anyone elses. If all you are looking for is "nice pen good job" don't ask for a critique.

 

[KenBrasier]

It is only natural that we see some adversity even in a forum as wonderful and well managed as the IAP. I'm reading some great comments here, they appear to reflect what we learned in Kindergarten or Sunday School "Play Nice, Don"t Hit and Share".

The only suggestion that I would add is one that has always worked well for me. If you feel that you need to make an adverse or negative comment, WAIT 12 to 24 hours and see if you still feel it needs to be said. It has saved me many of times.

 

[jimm1]

Be thankful, not regretful. Have character. Don't question integrity. Remember above all...respect. I'll guess the majority of people on this forum want to learn. The minority here has the ability to share and teach. Learning is a priviledge. Honor that.
Be construtive, not destructive. If you feel you've been slighted, bite your tongue and move on.
Bottom line: If you don't have nothing productive to say, don't say it.

 

[Texatdurango]

Adding a thought to what Ed said, I think that so many problems stem from the use of PM's that they should have their own "rules of useage"!

It may come as a shock to some but there are many "invisible groups" within the IAP membership where members use PM's to discuss thoughts, hold private "group buys" and the like and believe it or not.... even use their numbers to privately blitz someone via PM's once they have a disagreement with another member.

An example (I'll use John Doe and me as hypothetical members)....... John Doe PM's me asking how to thread some parts on a kitless pen. I suggest he visit a very in-depth thread that another member has going on, which has a lot of time spent explaining the use of taps and that he should get all of his questions answered.

Well, John Doe didn't appreciate the way I was trying to help him so he replied spelling out EXACTLY what he wanted me to give him SPECIFIC answers to and his second PM didn't have that friendly tone anymore.

I simply replied saying I was pretty busy and didn't have the time to spend on a detailed laundry list and suggested he start his own thread asking the same questions. That reply got me a very nasty reply saying that I didn't give a crap about helping anyone, and went on with some other choice words and accusations. I also heard from a few of his "friends" as they also felt compelled to echo his feelings and one even suggested the forum would be a better place without the likes of me if I couldn't answer "a simple question".

That said....... we can come up with a thousand guidelines for etiquette but untill we realize there are some who feel the rules don't apply to them or their will be no real consequences to ignoring the guidelines, we haven't gained an inch.

Just a thought!

 

[JimB]

I would like to see something about not flaming vendors, big or small. I've seen a number of posts where the person has not even contacted the vendor to try to resolve an issue but feel it is OK to get on here and complain about them. It wouldn't hurt to point out that a lot of these vendors support the IAP and we are hurting our relationship with them.

 

[beck3906]

Don't talk with your mouth full.............of crap.

 

[ed4copies]

Jim,

As a vendor, I believe we are made better by seeing the "complaints" of our customers. Should you try to contact the vendor first??? Of course!!!

But, as you know I am pretty active on IAP, so it's a great place to communicate with me. And, if you want to complain, I SHOULD have a reasonable explanation OR I should be prepared to CHANGE the practice that the customer is unhappy with (terrible grammar).

And, it is only fair that a community know that some vendors will ship immediately---others will take a week to process the order. This is merely stating a fact that each of the IAP members SHOULD know.

So, be careful how much you limit members' ability to complain. Smart vendors (which I HOPE we are) LEARN from their customers' complaints. We have realized we have an email problem, primarily through communications we have received here.

Maybe each vendor can have their own policy regarding this???? I'd hate to lose the feedback we have gotten in the few threads criticizing our actions.

 

[OOPS]

from a newbie's perspective

It has been just about a year since I first came to this site, a total newbie to pen turning. I didn't join right away, but read everything voraciously attempting to learn about my new hobby. The first thing that impressed me about this group was the collegial atmosphere between members. Even though their addresses showed they were thousands of miles apart, they sounded as if they were best friends!

A year later, it seems that a fair amount of that is gone now. Unfortunately what has taken root is quite a bit of snide or sarcastic responses that just serve no purpose. One specific thread should illustrate my point.

For example, if someone posted

"Does it matter which way I put the center band on my Slimline when I put it together?"

I imagine this would generate some chuckles from members as you read the post, but a few people would respond and politely give the answer to this question.

Recently, though, a member posted a thread with a question about customer service issues, since he had never been in a retail business before and wanted to know how to handle a certain problem. For those of us who have experience in sales, or customer service, the question was equally as basic as the Slimline question above. However, it generated a significant amount of discussion, as it turned out that MANY members had similar questions, or suggestions as to potential solutions. I have had such retail experience, but nonetheless was enjoying the answers from the members. Suddenly, I ran into the following reply.

"You really had to ask this?"

The rudeness of this response has stayed with me until now. Yes, it was a basic, easy question, but a lot of questions on this site are easy to some of us, and not to others. A sarcastic remark only serves to dampen the spirits of the group.

I suppose we can wonder why someone would take the time to write a post that serves no useful purpose, but such is life. Personally, I think the moderators of the site should take a more active role, if only temporarily, to remove these unhelpful posts, and explain why to the offending party (in a PM.)

Also, others who have left the site should be asked to return. Since I am still struggling to assemble kit pens, I have nothing to offer on the craft side of the hobby. Therefore, I was totally unaware that members were being chastised for not being thorough enough in giving away their tips and techniques. Those hurtful PMs should be forwarded to moderators and dealt with quickly. If someone wants to demonstrate a technique, or create a tutorial, fine, but we have no "right" to it.

Finally, I agree with prior posters here. If someone asks a question, please don't just say "Its in the library." Some of you are obviously more adept at navigating the library than others, and I too have had problems finding what I was looking for there. So if you know that its in the library, please put the link in your response, for those of us who can't find it.

All in all, this is still a great site. While I am not a big fan of excessive moderator interference, there is a time where an expanded presence is necessary to keep things orderly. As other posters suggested, would we remember or even read a long list of do's or don'ts before posting? Probably not. Once you hear from a moderator though, you would quickly commit that lesson to memory.

 

[Padre]

When a question is asked...answer the question.

If some one asks what time it is keep in mind that they don't want to know how to build a wrist watch or Big Ben. And, don't tell them they are asking the wrong question....assume they know what they want to find out.

And PLEASE don't tell them to just search the library or forum. That is not very welcoming. If you don't want to answer the question since it has been asked a million times, just don't reply, please.

Absolutely spot-on.

 

[jeff]

The TOS says, "...nor may you post the contents of email exchanges without the consent of all parties involved." The important word is POST. You may always feel free to FORWARD objectionable PMs to me or a moderator.

PMs are subject to exactly the same content rules as everything else at the site.

"Jim Smith" brings up an interesting point, Jeff.

TOS say we may not forward emails to mods (as I READ the TOS---I could be wrong here).

But, I have heard from many very respected members that they receive nasty PM and email because someone thinks they should "share" more.

The emails and PM's were generated because of threads here---they ought to be subject to SOME rules too.
NO good answer, just an observation.


The other sore point is the definition of "share".

When you want ME to tell YOU everything I know, and you have nothing to contribute, we are NOT SHARING!!! I am TEACHING---for which people are paid---it's called EDUCATION.

So, if you have something to contribute, we can SHARE. This is regularly the case in the casting forum, where pressure rates and other new practices are discussed among those who have done a lot of casting and everyone can benefit.

But, when you want to know the specific way Curtis cleans his cactus---that is EDUCATION and should be completely VOLUNTARY for Curtis to tell you (educate) or NOT tell you (HIS RIGHT to his knowledge).