Glues

[jttheclockman]

It is surprising with all the people that have come through this site and it is over 14,000 no one person has ever mentioned any glue or adhesive that can be used by us in pen making weather it is for segmenting or gluing tubes that has been used in Nasa or aviation or some government work that is stronger than what we use today. It seems epoxys are about the strongest glues available to us. Now I know some claim to be such as Rino glues and Gorilla glue and even super glue or CA has made that claim.

But what does the space gurus use??? Someone here here has to have some insight. And is it available to the public???

 

[OOPS]

I don't know what NASA uses and I am not sure it would work for our application anyway. From what I understand, many people want fast acting, some want it to be clear so that the tubes can be painted and blanks can be reverse painted, it needs to bond to wood, brass and acrylic and some even want a gap filling type product. I was just speaking to an adhesives dealer earlier today and was told that it is too difficult to find the one, "go-to" adhesive for all these applications. Ones that might do all the above applications would probably do them poorly in comparison to an adhesive that was specifically designed for a particular purpose.

Based upon what I heard, I will be sticking with a polyurethane glue for attaching wood to brass. (I use Sumo, but it is no longer sold, so I will be trying a poly glue from Titebond and one from Rockler to see which would be best in the future.) For gluing acrylic to brass, I will continue with 30 min. epoxy, as I like the longer working time.

If you don't need a clear glue for painted tubes, one you might consider is Type 11. But I wonder if there really is a need for something stronger. Do you have a lot of glue failures?

 

[jttheclockman]

Always a need for stronger glues. I use System 3 epoxy for all my glue ups and was just wondering. I never had any failures but thought there might be that secret glue out there.

 

[OOPS]

Several of my penturning friends use System 3. They report good results as well.

 

[firewhatfire]

has anyone ever gone back and tried making and using hide glue? Just wondering---since you started one direction I figured I would think in the other.:biggrin:

 

[islandturner]

has anyone ever gone back and tried making and using hide glue? Just wondering---since you started one direction I figured I would think in the other.:biggrin:

I wondered the same thing, and thought about trying it, until I found these instructions for making Lee Valley's hide glue. That ended that -- it sounds like a lot of fussy awful work, for a glue that's not much -- if any -- better than the commercial glues we use now. I'd also be curious to hear if anyone has tried it.

 

[nativewooder]

I used to use an epoxy glue that was the equivalent of the glue NASA used to glue on the tiles on the shuttles. It used to be available through Sewell Hardware Co. in WPB, Fl. Don't know if it is still available. It was the only glue I used when I used to make salt water trolling rods.

 

[jttheclockman]

I used to use an epoxy glue that was the equivalent of the glue NASA used to glue on the tiles on the shuttles. It used to be available through Sewell Hardware Co. in WPB, Fl. Don't know if it is still available. It was the only glue I used when I used to make salt water trolling rods.

Now that is the kind of info we are looking for. That had to be some pretty good glue I would think. We don't have to subject our pens to that king of heat so it should work well. If you could do some digging and get a name or a link would be worthwhile. Thanks.

 

[Chasper]

I've made hide glue and used it for making primitive archery bows. You really don't want to go there, not only is it a challenge to make, it spoils. It rots like fresh meat if left out at room temp and even refrigerated it spoils in a week or two.

I understand the need for a strong glue when segmenting, but I don't think gluing tubes in place requires much strength. I always use more just to be sure, but I've glued in tubes with two drops of CA and they held during turning. I know about the blow outs when the partially turned blank breaks away down to the tube, I believe that the result of tool handling errors, not glue failure.

 

[jttheclockman]

I've made hide glue and used it for making primitive archery bows. You really don't want to go there, not only is it a challenge to make, it spoils. It rots like fresh meat if left out at room temp and even refrigerated it spoils in a week or two.

I understand the need for a strong glue when segmenting, but I don't think gluing tubes in place requires much strength. I always use more just to be sure, but I've glued in tubes with two drops of CA and they held during turning. I know about the blow outs when the partially turned blank breaks away down to the tube, I believe that the result of tool handling errors, not glue failure.

I believe you are correct that nine out of ten times it is human error why things go wrong. But there is always that one blank that is just not meant to be and what I am looking for is another option to make it happen. I am basically talking about segmenting work because just about any epoxy will hold tubes in place and others have had success with other glues of their choice. Like to have any and all options out there on the table. I was figuring someone has to have either worked or is working in a field that requires glues of tremendous holding power that might be transfered to our needs.

 

[Jim Burr]

I've noticed too that many glues/epoxys fail under temps about 100* or in that neighborhood. When I use aluminum/PR/wood combo's, failures would occur due to temps during turning and primary sanding.

 

[SatelliteCity]

A lot of penturners are already using glues that are used in aerospace. Ever heard of Scaled Composites? They made SpaceShipOne, the first private manned spacecraft to reach an altitude of 328,000 feet twice in two weeks, and they are working on SpaceShipTwo, among other projects. They use Hot Stuff CA glue from Satellite City extensively in construction. You can see the glue in some pictures in the book SpaceShipOne: An Illustrated History. Check it out:

 

[jttheclockman]

2 posts and 2 plugs. Not bad. I use your glues mostly for finishing but will tell you they are not my go to glue for segmenting at all. Epoxy is a better glue for those things and for tube gluing in my opinion. I will use CA when gluing acrylic to acrylic in a segmenting blank I am working on now because I need the quick turnaround because of the many joints I have to make. Hopefully it holds together.

 

[SatelliteCity]

You wanted to know which glue had been used in aviation or by NASA- how could I resist that plug? Actually, we have sold to NASA as well, but not often in large quantities, and we don't have any pictures of what they use it on.

I'm glad to hear you use Hot Stuff for finishing, and it will definitely hold acrylic together. Can I ask why you prefer epoxy for tube gluing and segmenting?

 

[mikespenturningz]

I use lots of UFO Foam Safe Thick by Hot Stuff for all of my segmenting. It works really well and I can use it as I am allergic to regular. I do wish it was available in larger containers though. 2oz doesn't last very long. I was using epoxy and have tried a few different kinds but found that both let go when things get a little warm. I have not had nearly as much trouble with UFO. I do use epoxy to glue in my tubes though.

 

[jttheclockman]

You wanted to know which glue had been used in aviation or by NASA- how could I resist that plug? Actually, we have sold to NASA as well, but not often in large quantities, and we don't have any pictures of what they use it on.

I'm glad to hear you use Hot Stuff for finishing, and it will definitely hold acrylic together. Can I ask why you prefer epoxy for tube gluing and segmenting?

I find Ca to be too brittle. Epoxy is also gap filling without shrinkage. I know they now have rubberized CA but if I am having success with System 3 epoxy which is great, why change?? My Dad always said if its not broke don't fix it.

But with that said I am still looking for that perfect glue that can glue all materials and with high strength that can witstand the heat of drilling and the occassional catch with the turning tools without pulling apart.

I have tried your CA with metals to wood and there is no strength there at all. I have used your CA on wood to wood only when it was lengthwise. End grain is not a good combination. For that I use carpenters glue.

Nasa had to have a great glue when doing all that heatshield work. That can be something that might work for us too.



Now I see you must be a representative for this company so I ask you why don't you set something up for the IAP members here as far as discounts for your products. I see on your website you are only about 50 cents cheaper than most who sell your product. I am sure you can do alot better than that.

Does your company make an odorless CA. That is something that alot of our members maybe interested in for a resonable price. Seems that stuff comes with a steep price. But it is a complaint we all hear too often here as to why people won't use CA.

While we are at asking questions, are you a pen maker???

 

[nativewooder]

JT, google is your friend. Sewell Hardware Company, Inc., West Palm Beach, Fl. Been around since 1926.

 

[jttheclockman]

JT, google is your friend. Sewell Hardware Company, Inc., West Palm Beach, Fl. Been around since 1926.

Yes that is good. But do you have a name of the glue. I go to their site and they have a list of adhesives but no linkage to the product.

 

[jttheclockman]

Thanks for the replys and no I will not get into posting alot of photos of pens I segmented using various glues so will just stick to what I found working for me. Right now Woodcraft is where I am buying the glues but I find it hard to believe you can not offer the membership any discounts. But it is what it is. You should get into making pens and then you can see first hand what we face each time we put a pen together or make our own blanks. Pen turning and finishing with CA has definetly increased sales of many CA making companies.

 

[jttheclockman]

Satellite City

Mr. Glenn Hunter

I thought i would show you an example of the use of your glues with what we do. Segmenting is big in blank making and I and alot of people here do this and will continue to grow. In this example I am making what is commonly known as scallops. The wood used is Holly and black Gabon ebony. The metal is sheet aluminum.

This part of my blank was made about 6 months ago and I just now decided to persue the finishing of this blank. As I went to get ready to drill this section I pushed on the ends ever so slightly to see if they were secure. They instantly flicked right off. I could have peeled every one off.

Preperation of this blank. I cut the 45 on my tablesaw. I roughed up the aluminum (100grit) just prior to gluing. I wiped any residual dust off. I lightly sanded the ends of the Holly and the ebony with 100 grit paper to give it some tooth. Again wiped the ends of dust. I applied a layer of med CA glue to both the wood and the metal on both the Holly and the ebony. I now use rubberbands as my method of clamping and holding the pieces in place. I make up 2 sides per night. I come back the next night and make up the other 2 sides using the same method. Now I placed this blank on the side and as I said I did this about 6 months ago. Things came up and I was unable to complete at that time. I go to continue it now and this is the results.

You asked what I am gluing and what failures I have encountered. Well this is just one example. Oh by the way the glue is fresh or at least that was just bought from Woodcraft so I assumed it was. That bottle of glue has been sinced used for finishing of pens where I feel that is the strength use of your glues. No problems with finishing with these glues.

Any suggestions or questions are always welcomed.

 

[mikespenturningz]

I have been using the UFO which is made by the same company as your glue John and I have had very few failures with it on scallops. I have on the other hand had lots of trouble holding epoxies together? I am not sure why you are having so much trouble but can tell you that my process for making scallops is drastically different than yours. It is kind of funny that I am having exactly the same issue but in reverse. It just goes to show that there is always more than one way to skin a cat and neither is necessarily right or wrong. I have never flicked off a glue up with either. I just find the heat is more prone to melt the epoxy than the super glue and the UFO allows me to do very fast glue ups and cuts my time way down by more than 1/2 the time to get things up and running?

 

[jttheclockman]

Well Mike pictures don't lie. The is no rhyme or reason for some of these failures so I just use what works for me. Like I said I have used System 3 epoxy and find it to be some of the best out there. I will look into the glues that were mentioned and see if I can find something worthwhile giving a try.

As far as the scallops go. There are many ways to do scallops. I will be posting a different method in the very near future here. I need to get started on that blank also. Have about 5 different blanks in various stages now and I also want to take another stab at the problem child with the aluminum and cast resin. I really think that blank would be a talked about piece if i can get it to cooperate. I also have another idea to expand the idea too if I can get it to work.

I do promise I will get some pens done soon.

 

[SatelliteCity]

Hello John,

Thank you for posting the pictures and your detailed description of the failure. Here are my thoughts:

Sanding the pieces to give them more tooth is good. That is especially helpful with very smooth surfaces, like metal.

CA glue doesn't deal well with surface contaminants. Are the woods you were working with oily? If so, I would recommend using a solvent like acetone or denatured alcohol on them to remove the oil prior to gluing. Otherwise, you will have a very weak bond. Make sure that any solvent you use has completely dried before you apply the glue.

I don't recommend applying glue to both pieces. When bonding with cyanoacrylate, you want to use just as much as you need to fill the gap between the pieces. A thicker layer of CA glue will cure more slowly and result in a weaker joint. Just apply the glue to one part. I would suggest hitting the other part with a light mist of accelerator. If the materials are very dry you will have a hard time getting cyanoacrylate to cure at all without an activator.

CA glues cure with finger pressure. Are your rubber bands able to provide much clamping pressure? If so, they should work fine. You shouldn't need to apply pressure for more than 30 seconds or so, but it won't hurt to keep doing so.

Another reason that bonds fails is old glue. Glue that is past its shelf life cures more slowly or not at all. However, you said that it was a recent purchase at the time and that you used the rest of it for finishing successfully, so that doesn't sound like the problem.

There's no reason you can't get a great bond between wood and aluminum. Here's a short demonstration of bonding some aluminum to some scrap wood. You can see that the glue develops quite a bit of strength very quickly so that the two only separate when struck forcefully on a concrete floor, and the aluminum tears some of the wood off. The strength would be much greater after 24 hours as well. I think with just a few tweaks to your application, you would be very satisfied with Super T's bonding strength. If you'd like to PM me your information, I'd be happy to send you another bottle and some accelerator for you to try again.

 

[jttheclockman]

Hello John,

Thank you for posting the pictures and your detailed description of the failure. Here are my thoughts:

Sanding the pieces to give them more tooth is good. That is especially helpful with very smooth surfaces, like metal.

CA glue doesn't deal well with surface contaminants. Are the woods you were working with oily? If so, I would recommend using a solvent like acetone or denatured alcohol on them to remove the oil prior to gluing. Otherwise, you will have a very weak bond. Make sure that any solvent you use has completely dried before you apply the glue.

I don't recommend applying glue to both pieces. When bonding with cyanoacrylate, you want to use just as much as you need to fill the gap between the pieces. A thicker layer of CA glue will cure more slowly and result in a weaker joint. Just apply the glue to one part. I would suggest hitting the other part with a light mist of accelerator. If the materials are very dry you will have a hard time getting cyanoacrylate to cure at all without an activator.

CA glues cure with finger pressure. Are your rubber bands able to provide much clamping pressure? If so, they should work fine. You shouldn't need to apply pressure for more than 30 seconds or so, but it won't hurt to keep doing so.

Another reason that bonds fails is old glue. Glue that is past its shelf life cures more slowly or not at all. However, you said that it was a recent purchase at the time and that you used the rest of it for finishing successfully, so that doesn't sound like the problem.

There's no reason you can't get a great bond between wood and aluminum. Here's a short demonstration of bonding some aluminum to some scrap wood. You can see that the glue develops quite a bit of strength very quickly so that the two only separate when struck forcefully on a concrete floor, and the aluminum tears some of the wood off. The strength would be much greater after 24 hours as well. I think with just a few tweaks to your application, you would be very satisfied with Super T's bonding strength. If you'd like to PM me your information, I'd be happy to send you another bottle and some accelerator for you to try again.

****To answer a couple of your questions or notes. First the white wood is Holly and no this is not an oily wood. The black wood is Gabon ebony and yes this is an oily wood. Whenever I deal with oily woods I always wipe down with acetone. As I said both woods were roughed up and wiped down. Always let the acetone dry. I am a woodworker and work with all kinds of wood and do alot more woodworking than pens so I know my way around the shop when it comes to gluing and finishing and things of this nature.


*****The gluing both pieces is one thing I did do but can not see that being the problem but what the heck I will try one side next time.


*****As far as rubberbands and amount of pressure I am confident that works well. I use that technique all the time.


*****As far as glue being old. I can only tell you I used the glue I bought from Woodcraft and did not look at any dates. I recently bought 3 more of each bottles so I have enough. As far as accelorator goes. I am not a big fan of it. To me it makes the glue even more brittle and I especially do not use it when finishing. I will use it on very small items such as birdhouse ornaments when gluing stems in or other small items.


****Question for you. How can I tell the date on the bottle??? I am assuming it is in the bar code. What is the date that this stuff starts breaking down???

 

[SatelliteCity]

Hello John,

The bottles are not currently dated, although they will be in the near future. However, you can tell if a bottle of glue is past its prime by its thickness and rate of cure. We rate the shelf life our 1,2, and 4oz bottles at a conservative one year. It will generally take somewhat longer than that to start noticing signs of aging.

Super T is as viscous as syrup and cures in about 30 seconds when fresh, faster with accelerator. If your Super T is noticeably thicker and is taking longer than 30 seconds to cure, or longer than about 10-15 seconds with a quick shot of accelerator, your bottle is past its shelf life. One exception is a bottle taken out of cold storage. You can store fresh, unopened bottles in the freezer to prolong the shelf life. A refrigerator is helpful as well, but not as much as a freezer. The glue will not freeze, but it will thicken a little and cure more slowly until it warms up to room temperature.

 

[jttheclockman]

No dates. That is odd.

What actually makes your glues kick off??? Is it moisture, air, combination of both or none of the above???

One other note I wanted to point out to you on your little video of gluing metal to wood, That is done with face grain. I would love to see him do that with end grain. Face grain gluing is a whole lot stronger than end grain gluing. That is with any glue. You can take carpenters glue and glue face grain and actually break the board before you break the glue joint. But glue end grain to face grain and it would be a very easy break. Just wanted to point that out so that you do not mislead people.

 

[sbell111]

This part of my blank was made about 6 months ago and I just now decided to persue the finishing of this blank. As I went to get ready to drill this section I pushed on the ends ever so slightly to see if they were secure. They instantly flicked right off. I could have peeled every one off.

Wood moves and aluminum doesn't. That movement over 6 months likely broke the glue joint, in my opinion.

 

[SatelliteCity]

Hello John,

CA glue cures with moisture (in the parts or in the air) and alkaline substances. Curing is inhibited when you are dealing with a lack of moisture or acidic surfaces.

End grain bonds can be difficult as the glue will soak in rather than bond the surfaces. You need to use a thicker glue in those cases. I have no intention of misleading people. We did another quick video to show you an aluminum strip bonded to end grain. We still formed a strong bond in a little over thirty seconds.

 

[jttheclockman]

Well this has ben fun and just maybe it was informative to others as well. Segmenting pen blanks is alot of fun but can also be frustrating. Just ask anyone who has done them. The more intricate the segmenting the more challenges. Dealing with different materials and different expansion and contraction ratios is a big challenge. We see it all the time with pens cracking because wood expands and they are glued to a solid object such as a metal tube. People use many glues and CA is one of them. I have had good sucess using your glues for finishing so I will continue. I will also continue the use with acrylic to acrylic gluing.

I still believe that perfect glue is somewhere out there and the quest continues. I welcome anyone else who wants to join in on this conversation and put forth some ideas or examples. We all in the pen making business would surely welcome it.

Glenn, thanks for the info. I still hold out hope for you being able to set something up with the IAP members as a far as any discounts. I would not mind getting a free T-shirt:biggrin:

 

[SatelliteCity]

Yes, this has been a great discussion. There is no type of glue that is perfect for everything, but I hope that I have given you reason to try out CA glue for more bonding in addition to finishing. I thank you for using us for your finishing in any case!

Since you mentioned that you can glue wood with carpenter glue and get the wood to break before the glue does, we made you one more video to show that you can do that with Super T as well, and very quickly.

If you PM me your address and size (small-XXXL), I'd be happy to send you a T-shirt, along with anyone else who'd like one.

 

[jttheclockman]

I see that you now have your catalog listed in our forum. I hope this proves to be lucrative for you and I also hope you keep this site in mind when it comes to our annual BASH party. We are always looking for contributers.