What's in a name?

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ed4copies

ed4copies

Local Chapter Manager
Joined
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Location
Racine, WI, USA.
A rose, by any other name, would smell as sweet!

A pen kit by any other name........can stink.

FACTS:
Sierra is the name of a kit made originally by Berea.

For years, these were the ONLY sierras. They garnered a good reputation---they were talked about on IAP as "good kits".

Then another manufacturer made a kit that looked like a sierra and used the same name--I refer to that as a "knock-off". Some may differ with that characterization, but let's discuss WHY a new kit would use this established name.

Would it give them a "good reputation" for a brand new product that should have NO reputation? Probably, yes!

Would any confusion that was caused benefit the lesser known product?

By doing this, the NEXT imitator also sees he can use the same name and, before you know it there are people complaining about HIS chinese-produced product. (The original is still made in Taiwan).

When complaints start, they are aimed at the "sierra" (after all, that is the name of the product and it LOOKS LIKE the original). And blanket condemnations about quality issues are, rightfully, leveled.

But the original product has not changed---it is a quality product that operates well.

So, while I know NOTHING about fashion or jewelry, I do hear the term "knock-off" used to describe Rolex watches that are sold out of trenchcoats, instead of Jewelry vendors. I would put the "sierras" with manufacturing difficulties in that same class of products.

So, rather than avoid all products with the name "sierra", can we attempt to differentiate this very confusing matter and show ourselves as "experts" in pen-making???

I dunno, but it's an interesting question, I hope.
 
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If that is true (your vendor was NOT fibbing to you), why doesn't he ask you to return your kits so he can get Berea's input on the problem? I would.

In fact, I would be happy to pay you to send them to ME, so I can research and solve.
 
ed4copies said:
In fact, I would be happy to pay you to send them to ME.
Click to expand...

Ed, I have them boxed and ready to ship. The invoice has been sent.:biggrin:


As for the Sierra's, I've never had a problem and I've made hundreds. Just lucky?
Although, I haven't purchased a kit in over a year. Maybe something has changed?
 
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Hey James,
I just purchased several thousand kits.

If they have a problem, I'd like to know it now.

So, yes, I would like to confirm that they are Berea manufactured and identify any manufacturing problem.

I am confident (after many conversations with their owner) that Berea would take this seriously and help me solve it.

We'll see if Andrew takes my offer. Hope so.
 
Made probably 50 sierras. Had issues with 3. Two had transmissions that just wouldn't stay connected to the barrel. I think this was more
Due to operator error, as many people I see look and try them force the twist too for or the wrong way, will
Will obviously undo the transition.

So the only 1 in 50 that had a genuine problem, was one that the grip and feature ring came apart. That was after 6 months daily use though.

So all in, not a bad average??
 
I recently bought 10 "Sierras" from Timberbits - gunmetal/gold. Five of them had the little round top and five were flat top.

I had one transmission that wasn't good otherwise they were fine. Fit was good, finish looks great and everything looks and feels tight.

Are they Berea's? I haven't a clue but at $4 each, I have no complaints and will definitely but them again.
 
Terry you are right---I don't have any complaints about the ones I bought. For the money they where fine but they just don't have the quality level I want for my pens.
Remember I am the guy that still makes Slimlines.
 
Gary Max said:
Terry you are right---I don't have any complaints about the ones I bought. For the money they where fine but they just don't have the quality level I want for my pens.
Remember I am the guy that still makes Slimlines.
Click to expand...

Quality was better than the Berea kit I bought. The wrong tube was placed in the kit and as a result the tube didn't fit (too small). Personally I couldn't see much difference in the finish.

(perhaps I didn't look hard enough)
 
I hadn't thought of it that way Ed! I never tried every different sierra manufacturer, so technically I should not give any advice until doing so. I did not realise there were that many different ones out there as knock offs. I did what most of us do, and assumed if one is junk, they all are.
 
Interesting thread Ed.
I bought a load of Berea Sierra's when they first came out and I'm just now starting to run out.
I've not bought any knock-offs and when I replace my stock, I won't.
I've had 0 problems with the Bereas.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong Ed.

If a customer unscrews the tranny on a Berea Sierra while it's still in the barrel, then pushes it back into the barrel, the tranny can get pushed up inside.

You don't consider this a problem?
 
But what is the point?

ed4copies said:
A rose, by any other name, would smell as sweet!

A pen kit by any other name........can stink.

FACTS:
Sierra is the name of a kit made originally by Berea.

For years, these were the ONLY sierras. They garnered a good reputation---they were talked about on IAP as "good kits".

Then another manufacturer made a kit that looked like a sierra and used the same name--I refer to that as a "knock-off". Some may differ with that characterization, but let's discuss WHY a new kit would use this established name.

Would it give them a "good reputation" for a brand new product that should have NO reputation? Probably, yes!

Would any confusion that was caused benefit the lesser known product?

By doing this, the NEXT imitator also sees he can use the same name and, before you know it there are people complaining about HIS chinese-produced product. (The original is still made in Taiwan).

When complaints start, they are aimed at the "sierra" (after all, that is the name of the product and it LOOKS LIKE the original). And blanket condemnations about quality issues are, rightfully, leveled.

But the original product has not changed---it is a quality product that operates well.

So, while I know NOTHING about fashion or jewelry, I do hear the term "knock-off" used to describe Rolex watches that are sold out of trenchcoats, instead of Jewelry vendors. I would put the "sierras" with manufacturing difficulties in that same class of products.

So, rather than avoid all products with the name "sierra", can we attempt to differentiate this very confusing matter and show ourselves as "experts" in pen-making???

I dunno, but it's an interesting question, I hope.
Click to expand...

The same thing happened to slimline...one company came out with a slimline now every company high or low or medium priced market makes a slimline.

If I want to buy square drive deck screws...I can find a number of companies that make them. Some of those companies (in my opinion) make better deck screws that the others...their screws also cost more. As a consumer I make a decision do I want to pay more and get better screws or pay less and get screws that are not so good? That is what is good about having a choice. and doesn't that apply to pen kitsas well.

Whether I buy the high priced screws depends on the application, some applications I need the best...most I do not so buying the best is a waste of money. The same is true for pen kits, from what some here describe as their aims and goals they should buy only the very best..but most applications don't need the best, and that's why cheaper kits are made.
 
Not Mfg problem

ed4copies said:
Hey James,
I just purchased several thousand kits.

If they have a problem, I'd like to know it now.

So, yes, I would like to confirm that they are Berea manufactured and identify any manufacturing problem.

I am confident (after many conversations with their owner) that Berea would take this seriously and help me solve it.

We'll see if Andrew takes my offer. Hope so.
Click to expand...

All of the problems I've seen described here and on the other thread are inherent in the design of the Sierra. While excellent manufacturing and quality control practices can and probably will reduce the number of failures that occur in the field, I would defy any manufacturer of Sierra kits to prove to me that none of their pens have experienced the failure we've talked about. That failure IS going to occur on some sierra kits regardless of who makes them and regardless of the price.

Other things like fit and finish, plating quality etc. may still lead a person to buy one brand over another and for good reason, but unless someone makes an engineering change, switching manufacturers is not going to eliminate the particular failure mechanism discussed here and elsewhere.

My own pen is a Sierra and I quite frankly don't remember where I got it. It is perfect...zero problems and it takes your PR9000 refill just fine. I know it didn't come directly from Berea Hardwood and it didn't come directly from Rizheng and it didn't come directly from PSI or a PSI reseller.
 
Hey Ed,
Interesting thread, I have been making pens now for a little over a year and a half. I have made several Slimlines and I also make Wall Street IIs. I honestly dont know if The wall streets are knock offs or not, but the label on the kit bag says they are made in tiawan. I have never had any problem with them so far, the fit and finish on the kits are nice and work real well. However I do explain to my customers the correct way to twist the pen to expose the refill and also to retract it.

I have also used the Monet kits from woodnwhimsies, have had no issues with them either, old one and new ones.I do think the wall streets are better kits though.

My every day pen is The first wall street pen I made. I have carried it every day since I made it and have replaced the refill 3 times and it has performed very well.
 
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Ed,
I am relatively new to pen turning, about 1 1/2 years and like the Sierra pen. Question is---- How do I know who sells the real thing and who sells "knockoffs"?
When I have a kit in hand, how can I tell the difference? I deal mainly with Woodcraft, PSI and CSUSA. Wallstreet II, Gatsby, Classica, Sienna, Sierra, are they all the same? I turn pens for enjoyment. I will sell a pen occasionally, so I am not counting beans. I don't mind spending a little extra, but I do expect quality.
 
philbaldwin said:
Made probably 50 sierras. Had issues with 3. Two had transmissions that just wouldn't stay connected to the barrel. I think this was more
Due to operator error, as many people I see look and try them force the twist too for or the wrong way, will
Will obviously undo the transition.

So the only 1 in 50 that had a genuine problem, was one that the grip and feature ring came apart. That was after 6 months daily use though.

So all in, not a bad average??
Click to expand...

I've also made a few Sierras supposedly made by Berea, they came from a place out west, and a couple did have a small gap between the barrel and the end of the tube but the tube was square, as in checked on a Brown and Sharpe Coordinate Measuring Machine, ( a wee bit of over kill) turns out the end the tube mated up to had an area that did have a slight drop off, on the edje of the feature ring, but you really had to be rather anal to notice it, (ok so I am, I had to work in a QC lab for a while), so that was with three or four pens out of 50 or 60, BUT and it's a big BUT I have had a lot of end user troubles with these kits. Not really a problem with the kits but the user unscrewing the Tranny from the grip/connector. Personally I am not a big fan of the kit, it's kind of hard for me to grasp while writing, and I just made a real special one with some decals, thing is it's a sharp looking pen, I've switched to the Diplomats and they seem to be a good alternative, but I do need a couple of Sierra Vistas.
 
some some

BKelley said:
Ed,
I am relatively new to pen turning, about 1 1/2 years and like the Sierra pen. Question is---- How do I know who sells the real thing and who sells "knockoffs"?
When I have a kit in hand, how can I tell the difference? I deal mainly with Woodcraft, PSI and CSUSA. Wallstreet II, Gatsby, Classica, Sienna, Sierra, are they all the same? I turn pens for enjoyment. I will sell a pen occasionally, so I am not counting beans. I don't mind spending a little extra, but I do expect quality.
Click to expand...
Some are and some are not the same...I can't name all of them but the Gatsby is not the same as a Sierra. Looks pretty much the same on the outside but the internals (mostly the transmission and thr way it is inserted into the tube) are different. The design on the center band may vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. Buy from someone you trust.
 
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