What thickness of material for segmenting

[Lew]

I have tried to find references on IAP for the thicknesses different turners use for segmenting. I am specifically interested in adding some bands of metal or plastics. I saw one reference to using 10mil or 30 gauge metal. Is that the standard? Would it be the same for plastics? In Don Ward's book, Modified Slimline Pens, he talks about using plastic bottle caps. I'm interested in trying something in segmenting but I'm unsure of how to proceed. Thanks for any information.

 

[Mr Vic]

Hi Lew. There is no real standard. I've used everything from colored construction paper to store bought aluminum and brass sheeting. The thickness all depends on your design and the desired effect. Also price plays a role. Look around the house and shop. You can use aluminum soda/beer cans, plastic coffee containers/lids, old gift/credit card, old note book vinyl covers or anything that is recyclable.

I find myself looking at things and wondering, can I make a pen with that.

 

[magpens]

When you say 10mil, do you mean 0.010" ? .... Sorry, I am not really a machinist ! . I think that 0.010" would be too thin.

But when it comes right down to it, it is whatever you think looks good in your particular design ..... I have used an aluminum thickness of about 1 mm or about 0.040" quite often because that is what I seem to have readily available.

For plastic, I think it should be thicker, but not sure why I say that . . I use plastic for end caps (about 3 - 5 mm thick) but not much else.

Most of my segmentation efforts have been with a variety of wood layers, not all the same thickness, but in the 2 mm - 4 mm thickness range.
I don't follow any particular style .... mostly fairly random. . I tend to like the randomized styles of IAP member "wood128" (Joe Schneider) which are for sale sometimes on ExoticBlanks but I don't see any of those at this time .... he has some work there but not the randomized layers that I like.

If you can describe (or picture) examples of the styles you like to make, that would help in responding.

When you refer to bottle caps, are you thinking of metal ones ? . Plastic caps would be hard to use, in my opinion.

 

[Curly]

There are no hard and fast rules. Whatever you can find or make is fair game. The only real requirement is that it be strong enough to work with, soft enough to turn and be able to stick it together with some kind of glue. So for most people that rules out marshmallows, stainless steel and teflon.

 

[magpens]

"that rules out marshmallows, stainless steel and teflon" ....... Come on, Curly ...... can't you adapt ? ..... LOL !! ...

 

[Curly]

Mal I said "..for most people".

 

[Lew]

Mal I said "..for most people".

One day I'll ask you about using marshmallows but not right now.

 

[Lew]

Thanks everybody. I'll start experimenting

 

[TonyL]

if you don't plan on cutting completely through the blank (like for some knot designs), it may be easier to cut your segmenting material the same with as your saw blade.

 

[magpens]

"cut your segmenting material the same width as your saw blade." ....... A VERY GOOD POINT, Tony !!!

 

[jttheclockman]

"cut your segmenting material the same width as your saw blade." ....... A VERY GOOD POINT, Tony !!!

Not sure what that means but there are no rules to thickness of segmenting material used or material it self. Take a look through this thread and see some of the various style pens made from all kinds of materials and segmented. This applies for wood acrylics and metals and whatever you want to use.
https://www.penturners.org/threads/no-comments-just-post-new-segmented-pens-and-likes.111419/

 

[magpens]

Not sure what that means but there are no rules to thickness of segmenting material used or material it self. Take a look through this thread and see some of the various style pens made from all kinds of materials and segmented. This applies for wood acrylics and metals and whatever you want to use.
https://www.penturners.org/threads/no-comments-just-post-new-segmented-pens-and-likes.111419/

John ..... refers to doing Celtic knots and similar when you may need to match thicknesses to saw blade kerfs for "best" appearance.

 

[Charlie_W]

I've used copper pennies for a segment..... you will soon find that all pennies are not solid copper.

 

[KenB259]

I make all my segmented blanks as square as I can get them, usually they are within .010. This means the segments have to accommodate that. If I'm putting in a three color band into a bandsaw cut, then my segments have to be approximately .016, depending on the design. Some designs require the infill to match kerf, others do not. My table saw kerf is .102 so same considerations, just different numbers. The question you asked, in reality, has no cut and dry answer. It's pretty much all design driven. I know this isn't much help but the more segmenting experience you get, the more this will make sense.


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[Lew]

I make all my segmented blanks as square as I can get them, usually they are within .010. This means the segments have to accommodate that. If I'm putting in a three color band into a bandsaw cut, then my segments have to be approximately .016, depending on the design. Some designs require the infill to match kerf, others do not. My table saw kerf is .102 so same considerations, just different numbers. The question you asked, in reality, has no cut and dry answer. It's pretty much all design driven. I know this isn't much help but the more segmenting experience you get, the more this will make sense.


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Ken, that's pretty much the answer I was looking for. Obviously, I need to spend yet more money to buy a thin band saw blade and a thin table saw blade (I never realized how expensive this hobby was going to be!). I tried bands with a standard table saw and bandsaw blade but they were so large they didn't look right. A celtic knot I did with the bandsaw worked out ok though. Thanks.

 

[Curly]

Glad you have an answer but had you been more specific in your first post the answers given would have been more focused. I thought the question had more to do with glueing up Gisi style, chevron, stacked type of work which is done with a variety of materials and thicknesses, not cutting and replacing saw kerfs in the blanks.

 

[KenB259]

Ken, that's pretty much the answer I was looking for. Obviously, I need to spend yet more money to buy a thin band saw blade and a thin table saw blade (I never realized how expensive this hobby was going to be!). I tried bands with a standard table saw and bandsaw blade but they were so large they didn't look right. A celtic knot I did with the bandsaw worked out ok though. Thanks.

Celtic knots made with a table saw, look better if you cut them at a larger angle than 45 degrees, I usually cut mine at 55 degrees and to take it a step further, you can glue thin strip together to make up the saw kerf. I have some with 5 bands, that look amazing, in my case I need infill at .020 or slightly under to accommodate glue. Here's an example.

 

[greenacres2]

@Lew--Look beyond your stash of table saw blades to other circular saw blades with a 5/8" (or whatever) arbor. I often use a 7.25" blade in my 10" table saw. Can easily cut to a 3/4" depth and I think the one i use most is right about 1/16" kerf.
earl

 

[Lew]

@Lew--Look beyond your stash of table saw blades to other circular saw blades with a 5/8" (or whatever) arbor. I often use a 7.25" blade in my 10" table saw. Can easily cut to a 3/4" depth and I think the one i use most is right about 1/16" kerf.
earl

Thanks Earl. That's a great idea instead of looking for a thin kerf 10" blade.

 

[Lew]

Celtic knots made with a table saw, look better if you cut them at a larger angle than 45 degrees, I usually cut mine at 55 degrees and to take it a step further, you can glue thin strip together to make up the saw kerf. I have some with 5 bands, that look amazing, in my case I need infill at .020 or slightly under to accommodate glue. Here's an example.

Beautiful work (as in all the other posts I've seen from you) and a great idea as well. Thanks

 

[Lew]

Glad you have an answer but had you been more specific in your first post the answers given would have been more focused. I thought the question had more to do with glueing up Gisi style, chevron, stacked type of work which is done with a variety of materials and thicknesses, not cutting and replacing saw kerfs in the blanks.

Sorry I wasn't clear. Just attribute it to the fact I don't know what I'm doing so it shows in my questions

 

[jfoh]

The closer your insert material is to the saw kerf the easier it is to make a good segmented blank. I never cut the blank into two parts but leave a thin connecting part and insert the segment such that I do not get any shifting of segments. To do this you must have the exact center located and make sure you keep the blank from shifting. My most challenging blank was a six sided walnut blank which got oak inserts placed into four rows on all six sides. I came out nice but I did have to leave it a bit bulky to keep the seperation on the segments. If I did another I would limit it to three rows max and spread them out more. Also Oak would not be my choice for accent insert. Holly would have been better.

 

[Lew]

The closer your insert material is to the saw kerf the easier it is to make a good segmented blank. I never cut the blank into two parts but leave a thin connecting part and insert the segment such that I do not get any shifting of segments. To do this you must have the exact center located and make sure you keep the blank from shifting. My most challenging blank was a six sided walnut blank which got oak inserts placed into four rows on all six sides. I came out nice but I did have to leave it a bit bulky to keep the seperation on the segments. If I did another I would limit it to three rows max and spread them out more. Also Oak would not be my choice for accent insert. Holly would have been better.

Thanks for the input Jon. I have tried to cut all the way through and found that the blank never goes back together perfectly so your method is much better.

 

[leehljp]

I missed this thread when it got started, and will chime in now.

Segments - there is a multiplicity of TYPES of segments, and therefore under the name of "Segments", Curly is exactly right.

1. Herringbone is a type of segment that is different from all others. No standards needed except all parts (in general) should be the same size. Herringbone can be 180° or 360°. Here is a 360: https://www.penturners.org/resources/360-herringbone.3/

2. Freestyle 1 in which a bandsaw is used to cut wandering/udulating designs with a thin strip of metal or contrasting wood between the parts. Thickness of the fill in segment up to the maker and within the realm of feasibility.

3. Knots in which the fill in material must be precisely the width of the saw blade's kerf

4. Stripes - fill in material the thickness of the kerf, or if a professional, the precise angle of the cuts, or if made up in a blank by adding layers. In some cases the complexity is in the precise entrance and exit of the drilling. example of stripe: https://www.penturners.org/media/imported-photo-from-leehljp.3500/

5. Round segments - what ever thickness you want. See this one as an example: https://www.penturners.org/media/imported-photo-from-leehljp.3506/

6. FreeStyle 2: none standard shapes - designs combined for effect - the sky is the limit in design. Here is a thread on Kaos, non standard, bowls - not pens, but pens can be made similarly.:https://www.penturners.org/threads/more-segmented-kaos.168883/#post-2109276

7. Dots can be included as segments, IMO. No size limit, but the angle can be very important: see this thread: https://www.penturners.org/threads/on-center-segmenting-drilling.168993/#post-2110654

I am probably missing a type of segment or two, and if there are other types, please add them and a pict or link if you have one.

 

[Lew]

I missed this thread when it got started, and will chime in now.

Segments - there is a multiplicity of TYPES of segments, and therefore under the name of "Segments", Curly is exactly right.

1. Herringbone is a type of segment that is different from all others. No standards needed except all parts (in general) should be the same size. Herringbone can be 180° or 360°. Here is a 360: https://www.penturners.org/resources/360-herringbone.3/

2. Freestyle 1 in which a bandsaw is used to cut wandering/udulating designs with a thin strip of metal or contrasting wood between the parts. Thickness of the fill in segment up to the maker and within the realm of feasibility.

3. Knots in which the fill in material must be precisely the width of the saw blade's kerf

4. Stripes - fill in material the thickness of the kerf, or if a professional, the precise angle of the cuts, or if made up in a blank by adding layers. In some cases the complexity is in the precise entrance and exit of the drilling. example of stripe: https://www.penturners.org/media/imported-photo-from-leehljp.3500/

5. Round segments - what ever thickness you want. See this one as an example: https://www.penturners.org/media/imported-photo-from-leehljp.3506/

6. FreeStyle 2: none standard shapes - designs combined for effect - the sky is the limit in design. Here is a thread on Kaos, non standard, bowls - not pens, but pens can be made similarly.:https://www.penturners.org/threads/more-segmented-kaos.168883/#post-2109276

7. Dots can be included as segments, IMO. No size limit, but the angle can be very important: see this thread: https://www.penturners.org/threads/on-center-segmenting-drilling.168993/#post-2110654

I am probably missing a type of segment or two, and if there are other types, please add them and a pict or link if you have one.

Hank, thanks for the detailed description of the various types of segmenting. As I have said before, there are so many variations on everything about pen making that there seems to be no end. I sincerely appreciate all the help.