Waterslide decal finishing question

[Rob H]

Sorry I should have put this in the post already started about decals but can't find a way to delete it and move it.

I'm thinking about trying waterslide decals and have been researching it. What i have read so far says to use a CA finish. I can't seem to do a straight CA finish at all but have had success with BLO/CA. My question is would the BLO react badly with the decal? I know i could just try but I was hoping someone might have tried it already and could chime in.

 

[Dalecamino]

Here is a tutorial for decals. I never understood it to be necessary to include BLO in a CA finish. It's just a turners choice I suppose. Same process excluding BLO gets you the same results. Three coats of Thin CA, followed with 6 coats of Medium. Same CA finish. Apply your decal after the three coats of Thin CA.

https://www.penturners.org/data/resource_icons/0/383.jpg?1565455829

 

[egnald]

For what it's worth and from what I understand, the combination of Boiled Linseed Oil (BLO) and Cyanoacrylate (CA) have some mutual benefits. Boiled Linseed Oil will penetrate and "enhance" the grain of wood, and will usually darken it slightly. Adding CA will help increase the rate that the BLO will polymerize. In an opposite vein, adding BLO to Cyanoacrylate will help decrease the rate that the CA will polymerize thus providing a little longer working time. So, depending on the finishing goal, material, and application, BLO and CA can work together hand in hand. I got most of this information from the CA Wikipedia and from Joseph Wisniewski, from Dolmetsch, a long time manufacturer of musical instruments, primarily recorders.

I personally have not combined BLO and CA for any purpose; however, I do appreciate the wood color improvement I have experienced when I've used certain friction polishes that contain BLO (mainly O.B.'s Shine Juice). Maybe I should try a few experiments to see how the combination of BLO and CA works with wooden pen blanks.

Regards,
Dave

 

[jrista]

For what it's worth and from what I understand, the combination of Boiled Linseed Oil (BLO) and Cyanoacrylate (CA) have some mutual benefits. Boiled Linseed Oil will penetrate and "enhance" the grain of wood, and will usually darken it slightly. Adding CA will help increase the rate that the BLO will polymerize. In an opposite vein, adding BLO to Cyanoacrylate will help decrease the rate that the CA will polymerize thus providing a little longer working time. So, depending on the finishing goal, material, and application, BLO and CA can work together hand in hand. I got most of this information from the CA Wikipedia and from Joseph Wisniewski, from Dolmetsch, a long time manufacturer of musical instruments, primarily recorders.

I personally have not combined BLO and CA for any purpose; however, I do appreciate the wood color improvement I have experienced when I've used certain friction polishes that contain BLO (mainly O.B.'s Shine Juice). Maybe I should try a few experiments to see how the combination of BLO and CA works with wooden pen blanks.

Regards,
Dave

I am actually going to be experimenting with just this, combining oil and CA (although, not BLO, in my case walnut oil...not sure if it will work the same), today!

I did some reading a while back. Seems that it is more than just adjusting cure times...the CA and the oil actually create an entirely new kind of polymer as well. They actually cross-link with each other, which creates a different kind of finish. Supposedly, it is naturally shinier, but also a bit more flexible and thus more resistant to scratch damage.

I did some experimentation in the past with BLO, but, that was with different CA glues (which I'm highly allergic to), so I didn't get very far. It seems my latest Pens Plus bottle may have gone bad (possibly the high heat lately, not sure), and its not glossing up properly on any of my latest pens. So I'm giving GluBoost a try, and GluBoost + Oil a try. I'll report back with my findings maybe by end of day here...

 

[egnald]

I am actually going to be experimenting with just this, combining oil and CA (although, not BLO, in my case walnut oil...not sure if it will work the same), today!

I did some reading a while back. Seems that it is more than just adjusting cure times...the CA and the oil actually create an entirely new kind of polymer as well. They actually cross-link with each other, which creates a different kind of finish. Supposedly, it is naturally shinier, but also a bit more flexible and thus more resistant to scratch damage.

I did some experimentation in the past with BLO, but, that was with different CA glues (which I'm highly allergic to), so I didn't get very far. It seems my latest Pens Plus bottle may have gone bad (possibly the high heat lately, not sure), and its not glossing up properly on any of my latest pens. So I'm giving GluBoost a try, and GluBoost + Oil a try. I'll report back with my findings maybe by end of day here...

Although I think Walnut oil might be considered a drying oil which should cross link with CA, I understand that even some oils that are not considered drying oils will still polymerize with CA - almond oil for example. I will look forward to your findings - Dave

 

[jrista]

Although I think Walnut oil might be considered a drying oil which should cross link with CA, I understand that even some oils that are not considered drying oils will still polymerize with CA - almond oil for example. I will look forward to your findings - Dave

Well, gave it a first go.

Made some mistakes, so we'll see how it turns out here. First, initial choice of applicator was bad. Left paper towel fibers in the finish. So I had to sand off the first three coats. Then, I had to figure out what the right balance of oil to CA was. I'm still not sure I've found it. Finally...I suspect my walnut oil is bad, and it is probably affecting how it interacts with the CA. This is probably also why my pens plus isn't working... I think the walnut oil has gone rancid, and maybe the shellac in the PP too. Darn heat...I should have brought all the finishes in over the last month.

After sanding off the first few coats, I applied about 10 more. First impression is, the finish looks extremely brilliant. The chatoyance is off the chart. PP does well, when you can get it to clear up, with chatoyance, but I don't thin I've ever seen anything like GB/WO gives. So, that's a plus.

On the negative side...it doesn't seem to be drying. Even with applicator, it doesn't dry. I ended up adding a few additional coats after the first 10, as when I touched it (After applying GC accelerator) I left a notable mark. A few more coats cleared it up again. The ends are showing "dull", which is exactly the kind of problem I was getting with the Pens Plus. I'm 99% sure that's the bad WO...

I guess I'll see here, if it dries and hardens overnight or not.

The commend you make about drying oils. BLO has additives that make it dry faster. Much like a Danish oil, which also has drying additives. Both BLO and Danish will usually have heavy metal drying agents, among many other VOC and other drying agents. So, maybe that is a factor, and it may well be that tomorrow, the GB/WO is still wet. This set of pens was a bad batch, and already had problems, so losing them isn't a big deal. They were already lost! I have 9 more turned blanks to play with, so I should be able to figure out what will work here. I haven't used BLO in a couple of years, so, the stuff I have is undoubtedly bad and will need to be replaced.

I guess...I need to replace my walnut oil and Pens Plus as well. Sadly, I used only about 1/4 of the walnut oil...just didn't use as much of it as I thought I would, and it was the same size bottle as the Pens Plus...and of the Pens Plus, I've only used a bit more than half. Darn expensive stuff! Doubly expensive, if what remains is now bad! I've heard of...loss prevention bags, or something. Stop loss bags? I may have to invest in some of those. Or, find some other way to seal and preserve my finishes. I know that one of the key problems is as you use a finish, more and more oxygenated atmosphere ends up in the bottle or can, which just accelerates the rate at which the finish goes bad. Maybe I can redistribute the walnut oil and pens plus finishes into smaller bottles, keep most of them sealed up and cool... The Pens Plus goes a heck of a long way, so it lasts far longer than I ever expected it to. This, of course, assumes I stick with it. It can be a challenge to work with. Maybe just strait GB will work better (haven't tried that yet, these blanks had already had walnut oil and pp finish on them, so I started with the GB/WO blend), and give me the crystal clear look I want. If it works, and I don't present as highly allergic to GC, then I may not need PP anymore.

 

[jrista]

Super shiny... One thing I have noticed...it does not really seem to be building up all that much? I heard 10 coats with GB was quite a lot, and that it doesn't need that many. Some people only use a few coats. The depressions of the wood grain are still showing through here, though...and this is 10 coats (and eventually...12 or 13, which still pretty much looks the same.)

Wonder if that is part of blending oil and CA? It is very similar to how Pens Plus works...its not a build up finish. Thing is, I was expecting build up, so, over-turned the blank when removing the prior finish, to allow room for buildup...

 

[jrista]

Well, fiddled with this again today. Was NOT dry. The oil, even with friction polishing and heat when applying, doesn't polymerize with the CA glue. I try-buffed it off with a dry piece of paper towel, which left the top part of the pen glossy and shiny, and the bottom part dull and streaky. So seems, that the bottom half did not cure properly.

I sanded it back a bit, then added a few coats of just the normal (not thin) GB. Pure GB, no oil. Was fine on the top half, seemed to blend in with the bottom half (the fatter part, btw). So I quickly applied some accelerator, then applied a couple more coats, which seemed to produce a nice, hard CA finish.

Sanded that down, polished it up decently with Zona to the 1 micron grit. It still has a slight satin sheen to it, but it is now super clear. I don't think it has built up enough to actually fit the pen kit fittings (Cigar), so I would normally probably have to add more coats until it was thick enough. But, it did polish up with those pure CA finish coats. Since the pure oil (not a drying oil) doesn't bond properly with the glue, I would definitely NOT recommend this, even though I was able to salvage it.

All of these blanks had oil-based finish on them before (5 kits, 10 blanks top and bottom). So, I'm going to pick up some BLO and maybe some Danish oil, and see how those two work with the CA. Hoping that the accelerants in them will hasten the crosslinking process between glue and oil. I will say this...the oil+CA finish has a different feel to it. It feels almost more like rubber, and that in a way, makes it feel better? Classier, higher end? Maybe that is just the GluBoost, though...this is my first try with it, and I haven't used it pure yet, so I guess I'll see if this slightly rubbery, rich feel is normal for GB.

I will say, the clarity is amazing. I've used StickFast, Mercury, Mercury Flex, TiteBond, and...I forget the other. None have ever produced the clarity of GB, and that's been my big turnoff with CA so far...it always looked like plastic. The GB+WO shine line still has a very faint satin-like glow around it, but, away from the shine line its truly crystal clear, which is more like what I get from Pens Plus (but, better!) That's the kind of shine I like, so, this may work for my needs. I'm curious to see if this crystal clarity persists with the pure GB...

Another benefit with GluBoost is that I don't seem to be allergic to it. I got a faint whiff (I guess the organic vapor respirator filters just don't fully bond with and filter out CA fumes???), which with all the other CA glues I've used usually means I'm in for a bad couple/few days. I had a slight scratch in the back of my throat last night, and just a tiny bit of wheeze for a couple of hours, but that was it. I seem to be fine today, no lung issues, no breathing issues, nothing. So that is a HUGE plus for me...I've had some truly horrid long-term reactions to CA fumes in the past, so kudos to GluBoost for making a SAFE glue!

 

[jrista]

Polished it up with some Meguiar's, and the satin is gone. Did reveal I didn't quite get rid of all the scratches from one of the sandpaper grits, not sure which. I may try work on building up the finish a bit more to the size of the fittings for some practice here. The scratches are definitely what gives CA that plastic look though. I am now curious to see how GB+BLO or GB+Danish as well as pure GB hold up in the long run. There is a certain feel to this finish, that makes me think it is not as hard, but maybe more durable, than a pure CA finish. I guess I'll find out more once I have some BLO.

I get the GluBoost rave now, though! This stuff is amazing...

To the original topic, I may give a decal a try here, and see how it goes. I can see why CA would be the optimal finish if you are using a decal...it would provide a nice, solid finish above the decal to protect it.