Vacuum vs Compressing

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skiprat

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I know there are a lot of folks that know all about this so please just ignore it, however there are also lots who don't understand the basic process. I did do a search and could not find a similar thread, so here goes; ( Sorry, it's a bit long )[:I]

If you are considering stabilizing your own wood, but not sure which to choose, then I hope this will help.

For our purposes we will ignore terms such as 'absolute pressure' and for simplicities sake we will use Bar as a measure of pressure.

Air is a gas, and as such has a mass. The average pressure of air at sea level is 1 Bar. This is because of the mass of air above it. The higher we go, the thinner the air. These air particals are not as compressed as the ones at sea level.

If we seal a chamber at sea level with 1 Bar pressure in it, we can do two things with it. First, we can force more air into the chamber with a compressor. If we increase this pressure until there is 2 Bar pressure inside the chamber, it is obvious that the air particles in the chamber have to occupy half the amount of space as before.
Second, we can remove ( most of ) the air in the chamber with a vacuum pump. If we remove half of the air in the chamber, we would have 0.5Bar, if we could remove all of it, then we would have 0 Bar, or a vacuum.
We can use both of these to our advantage.
If we submerge a piece of wood ( which is full of air pockets ) in a liquid and apply an extra 1 Bar pressure above it, then the air pressure would force the liquid ( which cannot be compressed ) into the wood. Some of the air in the wood, that near the surfaces would be forced out of the wood to be replaced by the liquid. The rest of the air trapped in the wood will be compressed by the liquid being forced further into the wood.
However, when the applied pressure is released, the trapped compressed air in the wood will expand until it reaches 1 Bar again. This forces some of the liquid back out of the wood. It also leaves air pockets still in the wood.

If instead we remove the air in the same chamber while allowing the wood to float in the liquid, then while the pressure is being reduced, the air particles are being allowed to expand to their non-compressed state. The air in the wood also expands and forces its way out of the wood. The liquid may appear to boil as the air bubbles are released. As the pressure is reduced further by the vacuum pump, the air is then being 'sucked' out of the chamber and the wood. These now voids ( or vacuums ) in the wood now suck liquid in to replace the lost air. Some air will still be trapped in the wood, but at a reduced, near vacuum level.
Now when the vacuum is released, the normal 1 Bar pressure now forces the liquid further into the wood, while the voids, or vacuums help suck liquid in as well.

Much has been said about the merits of each. The fact is that it is easier, quicker and cheaper to apply pressure than to create a vacuum. Vacuuming, even though more difficult and slower is infinitely safer. A catastrophic failure of the chamber while under pressure may create exploding missiles while the compressed air almost instantly expands to the normal ambient pressure. The same failure while under vacuum is easy to contain and unlikely to cause any serious problems as the pressure is imploding, sucking any missiles inwards.
A faulty compressor could kill you, a faulty vacuum pump just won't suck!!
Several Bar above normal air pressure may be required to achieve the same penetration as can be achieved by a vacuum.
Some procedures of treating wood use both, first vacuum then pressure. Others also introduce heat, which speeds up the process.

For the average 'do-it-yourselfer', who wishes to stabilize their own wood, vacuum IS the better safer choice.

I hope that someone may find this helpful and perhaps understand the risks a little more.:)
 
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kenwc

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Not sure about others bit that helped me. Has anyone ever actually experienced or witnessed one of these "catastrophic" failures? I would assume that would not happen with a pressure pot?
 

skiprat

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Hi Ken, like you say a pressure pot is designed to withstand the pressure. They normally also have a pressure relief valve that vents off excess pressure safely. Some may be considering making a chamber. That was what I was aiming at. Although not pen or wood related, my brothers best friend was killed some years ago while using a compressor to fill aqualung bottles. The kit was fitted with pressure switches and pressure relief valves. Both failed. The dive shop was totally destroyed.
A vacuum set up is more likely to fail 'safe' where a pressure set up may fail 'unsafe'.
A good example could be a kids balloon. If you stick a pin in it, why is there always lots of bits laying around after?[:)]
 

stevers

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Steven,
Thank you very much. I have the paint pot on the way as we speak, shipped last Tuesday. I fully intend to do some stabilizing as well as casting. That was the "best" explanation I have heard yet. Even a dope like me was able to fully understand it. Now what is a bar???[B)][B)][B)] Just kidding. Thanks again.
 

karlkuehn

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Skip, I just got around to reading this. Thanks for taking the time! I spent around $90, two trips each to home depot and harbor freight and several hours building my pressure/vacuum pot. I'm just waiting on the combo pressure/vac gauge and upgraded safety valve that I ordered to get here, and it's complete. I cheated a little and tested it out, works great. I used stevers' tutorial as a starting block, adding my own flavors and taking lots of pictures. I'll post my monster soon.

Once I got it built, I sat back and looked at it and went, 'okay, now what?', which brought me to this page, which has been a great help in understanding the concepts, now I just gotta figure out what liquid I'm going to suck or force in, and how to contain it, and how long to do it, and so on and so forth...[:D] All the fun stuff!
 

Firefyter-emt

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Just to clarify a point here, I have run these compressors myself. This is the same one we had to fill air bottles for our Scott Air-pak's we use for the fire service. If my memory serves me correct, the SCUBA tank is somewhere between 2200 to 3000. Our compressor could fill those and both style tanks we had for the air pak's.

Our air pack were mostly the newer 4.5's (4500psi) but we still had some 2.2's (2200 psi) Now that I am thinking more, I believe the SCUBA tanks were 3000. for some reason I can picture that tag above the valve in my head.

My point for all this is there is a world of diffrence between out paint pots and a SCUBA or Fire Service air tank. At the very most you may push the 200 psi range from an air compressor, in reality 150-175 max. A "proper" SCUBA/Fire compressor should have a "blow safe" compartment where the tanks go inside a metal compartment and a blast door is raised. The problem is that a lot of the time the doors do not get shut. (This was a huge pet peeve of mine and I would ride any probee that did this for days.)[}:)]

The stored energy in these paint pot tanks will never reach the same range of danger as the SCUBA/Fire tanks can. It can still be dangerous and a good idea to bleed off the air is to pop the relief valve. This will keep it moving and working. I would not build one of these without the relief valve, it's just not worth it.



Originally posted by skiprat
<br />Hi Ken, like you say a pressure pot is designed to withstand the pressure. They normally also have a pressure relief valve that vents off excess pressure safely. Some may be considering making a chamber. That was what I was aiming at. Although not pen or wood related, my brothers best friend was killed some years ago while using a compressor to fill aqualung bottles. The kit was fitted with pressure switches and pressure relief valves. Both failed. The dive shop was totally destroyed.
A vacuum set up is more likely to fail 'safe' where a pressure set up may fail 'unsafe'.
A good example could be a kids balloon. If you stick a pin in it, why is there always lots of bits laying around after?[:)]
 

dbriski

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Thats one thing to remember, Don't remove your saftey valve when making your chamber (or at least put a new one back on somewhere). Even if you don't plan on putting more than 50psi in your pot, your regulator or your brain can malfunction and too much air gets put in, cablooie!
 

louisbry

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Very good explanation Steve. I have my paint pot and most of the fitings but haven't started assembly since I still need a vacume gage. Has anyone actually stabalized pen blanks via this method and what is the effectiveness?
 

Fred

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Very nice and simplified explanation there Skiprat. I am sure it will make clear many of the questions often perplexing folks that want to 'do their own.' Good job!

The Harbor Freight (HF) paint pot is rated to 90 PSI MAXIMUM. If one over pressurises it ... well, I for one want to be in the next state and many miles away. The mere thought of again dealing with grenades is enough to put me off and that is exactly what a pressurized pot is similar to. Pulling a vacuum on the same pot is indeed MUCH safer in the case of a failure. I am not aware of vapors igniting in a vacuum, but they can in a pressurized state. That is the principal behind a diesel engine. Of course some source of ignition is require.

I have been using the HF pot under a vacuum condition for several years and have had absolutely no problems what so ever aside from the once in a while leak.

I use pre-drilled blanks - often pre-turned as well - and a super saturated solution of styrofoam and MEK (Bad stuff). The solution gets pulled deeply into the blanks and many a one has been 'saved' and made turnable. If you do try this mix, be sure to have MORE than adequate ventilation as MEK is a killer both as a liquid and even more so as a vapor.

I just put my blanks into a jar, put the jar over in a plastic 3 gallon ice cream container to protect from boiling fluids getting to the HF pot, and put them all into the HF pot and vacuum to about 20" of vacuum. Let it sit a bit, then pull a harder vacuum. When the blanks no longer float I do believe they are completely saturated. They take a few minutes for the MEK to evaporate and the styrofoam to get hard (1 hour usually). Then go turn.

BTW, always use clean, white styrofoam unless you want to 'color' the blanks. Have fun!

I just happened to think that the lid on a pot with a vacuum cannot be opened, where as the lid on a pressurized pot can if one forces the hold down clamps. Then you will be eating the lid and that can't be good for anyone! Be careful folks! [:D]
 

ElMostro

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Questions for Fred. Does the styrofoam solution dry clear or does it dry white/white'ish? Would acetone dislove the styrofoam?
 

Randy_

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Originally posted by skiprat
<br />.....As the pressure is reduced further by the vacuum pump, the air is then being 'sucked' out of the chamber and the wood. <b>These now voids ( or vacuums ) in the wood now suck liquid in to replace the lost air.</b> Some air will still be trapped in the wood, but at a reduced, near vacuum level.
Now when the vacuum is released, the normal 1 Bar pressure now forces the liquid further into the wood, while the voids, or vacuums help suck liquid in as well.

Sorry; but I don't buy the hi-lited statement. While the wood is under vacuum, the voids in the wood will be at equilibrium with the rest of the chamber or at slightly "HIGHER" pressure depending upon how well sealed the voids are so there is no way the stabilizing liquid will be sucked into or forced into the internal voids. That will just not happen until the pressure on the vessel is released and the pressure in the voids is "LESS" than the ambient pressure.
 

Randy_

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Alain: If you are directing that question at me, my thinking is that "BOTH" is best!! Use the vacuum first to evacuate all of the voids in the wood and then pressurize the container to drive the stabilizer into the empty voids.

Now mind you that is theory only. I have never done any stabilizing so don't know what happens in the real world.
 
M

Mudder

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Very good explanation.

This should be in the upcoming Wiki.
 

skiprat

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Originally posted by Randy_
<br />
Originally posted by skiprat
<br />.....As the pressure is reduced further by the vacuum pump, the air is then being 'sucked' out of the chamber and the wood. <b>These now voids ( or vacuums ) in the wood now suck liquid in to replace the lost air.</b> Some air will still be trapped in the wood, but at a reduced, near vacuum level.
Now when the vacuum is released, the normal 1 Bar pressure now forces the liquid further into the wood, while the voids, or vacuums help suck liquid in as well.

Sorry; but I don't buy the hi-lited statement. While the wood is under vacuum, the voids in the wood will be at equilibrium with the rest of the chamber or at slightly "HIGHER" pressure depending upon how well sealed the voids are so there is no way the stabilizing liquid will be sucked into or forced into the internal voids. That will just not happen until the pressure on the vessel is released and the pressure in the voids is "LESS" than the ambient pressure.

Hi Randy, accuracy is of course very important when attempting to make a point. In Hindsight perhaps I could have worded that ( and maybe others ) sentence differently. I could / should have said that the liquid will flow into the voids, or migrate into them, or gravity will pull them in. Or any other term. The point is, that the liquid does not wait till the vac is released before it penetrates the wood. Depending on the viscosity of the liquid, it starts replacing these voids as soon as you dip the wood in the liquid. This was perfectly illustrated in the stabilizing tutorial ( posted by someone else ) that shows the wood sinking as the air is removed. The wood did not crush down like a sealed container would do, but absorbed the liquid in the place that the air was, as the vac was applied. When the vac was released, the ambient pressure simply pushed it further in.

My whole idea when I made that original post was to offer a very simplistic understanding of the two processes and to show the differences to someone who may want to get started into the casting/stabilizing idea. The only other point I tried to get accross was that COULD be dangerous to build a homemade pressure pot.

I did not want to expand further by adding comments on how to get better results by introducing heat, the use of drying agents ( dessicants), using inert dry gasses, length and types of hoses etc etc.
It just made it far to complex for a very basic intro.
Apologies to anyone who got confused or misled.[:I]
 

karlkuehn

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Ahhh, ok, that clears it up!

So...which is better, pressure or vacuum? *looks vacuous*

Just kidding, thanks for all the input, you guys, it's really helped me understand more about stabilizing. Somehow my little penturning hobby has morphed into many evenings spent learning chemistry and physics and woodshop all over again. I looked around my shop the other day at all the weird hoses, fittings, cans, jars, bottles and miscellaneous weird stuff, and thought, "Where am I, and what have they done with my shop?"

Man I love this stuff! [:D]
 

Randy_

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Originally posted by skiprat
<br />.....This was perfectly illustrated in the stabilizing tutorial ( posted by someone else ) that shows the wood sinking as the air is removed.....

I'm very sympathetic to your concerns about the dangers of pressure. I've seen the damage that can be done when pressurized vessels let loose.....something everyone needs to avoid at all cost!!

Sure would like to see that tutorial you were referring to, Steven. Do you recall any more detail that might help me find it??

Thanks.
 

alparent

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Originally posted by karlkuehn
<br />I looked around my shop the other day at all the weird hoses, fittings, cans, jars, bottles and miscellaneous weird stuff, and thought, "Where am I, and what have they done with my shop?"

Man I love this stuff! [:D]
I know what you mean! When I look at my shop and all the stuff I got because of this pen turning addiction.......I can hear my wife saying: Weren't you suppose to make only a couple of pens so you could learn how to use your new toy (wood lathe) before you tackled the big 4x4 maple legs on the dining table you are suppose to build for your parents (witch is not done yet because I'M TO BUSY TURNING PENS!)

I'm building a vacuum setup to stabilize some of my softer blanks.........next thing you know I will be getting stuff to do PR casting........to much stuff to try.......not enough time.......man I which I was retired......29 years to go........I can already taste it!
 
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