Turning before tube

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tipastar

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Nov 19, 2020
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Hi pen family. I'm relatively new and have turned a few gifts for the family and recently a process questioned crossed my mind and wanted to gauge the communities thoughts. In an effort to reduce waste or to be more satisfied with the final product, do any of you turn your blanks enough and semi polish them without inserting the brass tube from your targeted kit to get a gauge for beauty and not waste the brass tube in the event grain or material isn't what you wanted for that pen kit or final product? For example, I have a stabilized crosscut black palm that looks neat in it's blank form but i'm not sure the final polish will bring out the contrast in some of the "veins" if you will. I guess I don't want put a 7mm-10mm hole through the blank until I know what would look good with it so I thought about just turning it to round on center points, quick sanding get a feel. Or is this just a waste of time and you can buy brass tubes to cut to size, etc? Just looking for advice from you veterans. Thanks in advance.
 
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Dalecamino

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Welcome to IAP! Just my opinion...there is a reason for gluing in the blanks before turning. I think it's mostly for stability. There may be other reasons, but that one stands out to me as the best. But hey, grab yourself a sacrificial blank, and try your idea. Let us know how it goes.
 

Dehn0045

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Turning round is fine and worthwhile, but going down close to size is risky. Drilling with only a couple mm of wall thickness is not particularly easy. Also, the cost of a new tube is usually less than the cost of a decent blank. I'd rather risk losing the tube vs losing the blank.
 
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leehljp

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As Sam said, drilling after turning in which there is only a couple or three MM of wall thickness is inviting a blowout in the drilling process. Enough people have had problems of keeping a fine blank from having a blowout AFTER it is glued on the tube, and the tube and glue add TO the structural integrity.

You have a very good idea though. Makes perfect sense - until a blank is destroyed tying to drill it out.

There IS a way to do that, but it takes more time. Turn it to close to the size you want and like. When you settle on that, get some gauze and wrap it with 4 of 5 layers tight or 2 or 3 loose. CA the heck out of it! Drill the hole, insert the tube and glue it. This is similar to what some (and me also) do with delicate segment type of blanks that need to be turned (after the tube is inserted and glued).

The gauze and CA add to the integrity of the blank while it is being turned or in your case while you drill it.
 

magpens

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Hi Mike ...... Warm welcome to IAP !!! . :D :D

All good advice above.

I , SORT OF, do what you are suggesting, if I understand you correctly. . BUT, I don't turn the blanks down to size (not even close) until the tubes are in.

I first turn the blank round, at a diameter of about 0.7 to 0.75 inch diameter.
I cut to the correct length + 0.3", approx.
Square the ends of the blank before drilling. . I do my drilling on the lathe, not with a drill press.
I drill the hole. .
I square the ends of the blanks again, if I think it is necessary.
I mount blank between centers (see below), & turn a LITTLE BIT more off, just to make sure that the blank outer cylinder surface is on the same axis as the hole.

I now trim the blank to the correct length + a few thou on each end.

OK, so now it is time to see how the blank looks with the hardware parts ..... which I think is your main concern.

If you want to do so, you can apply a finish coat or two to this STILL OVERSIZE blank

Sliding in the tube is not necessary. . All you want is to check the appearance of blank next to hardware, right ?

The hole will be big enough for you to insert the hardware ( nib and finial , or whatever you have and whatever you call them ) at both ends .

Have a good look at it and decide whether to proceed or not.

If you decide that it looks good ....... proceed as below . . . . If not, well, just scrap it and go watch the football game . .

But ....... let's be optimistic ....... so, proceed .......

Glue in the tube. . Let the glue dry/cure.
Trim the blank to the exact length ..... at this stage, this means that you only have a few thou to take off at each end to get to the brass tube end.

You are now ready to turn the tube down to its final size and shape, ....... and then apply the finish.

And then you press in the nib and finial (or whatever).

Hope this is clear. . If you have any problem understanding me, just shoot me a question or two.

***********

I should say that I do not use a mandrel and I do not use bushings.

I use the Turn Between Centers (TBC) method ..... two 60-degree centers ..... fixed center in headstock, live center in tailstock.
The blank (with tube glued in) is held between the two centers. . . I carefully turn the blank down making careful measurements with calipers, until the size is just what I need to match the size of the hardware pieces at each end.

If you want to stick with mandrel and bushings that should be OK also.

I hope this works for you as well as it works for me . . I know that it probably sounds complicated, but it really isn't once you get used to it.
 

jttheclockman

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Nothing wrong with your idea. Not wanting to do it that often but if you have a questionable blank, go for it. Just turn it round enough and polish or finish the way you want. If you like what you see either chuck it up in a collet chuck or even a 4 jaw chuck or a pen chuck will work and drill and finish turning as needed. I have done this before.
 

tipastar

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Nov 19, 2020
Messages
4
Location
St. Louis, Missouri
Hi Mike ...... Warm welcome to IAP !!! . :D :D

All good advice above.

I , SORT OF, do what you are suggesting, if I understand you correctly. . BUT, I don't turn the blanks down to size (not even close) until the tubes are in.

I first turn the blank round, at a diameter of about 0.7 to 0.75 inch diameter.
I cut to the correct length + 0.3", approx.
Square the ends of the blank before drilling. . I do my drilling on the lathe, not with a drill press.
I drill the hole. .
I square the ends of the blanks again, if I think it is necessary.
I mount blank between centers (see below), & turn a LITTLE BIT more off, just to make sure that the blank outer cylinder surface is on the same axis as the hole.

I now trim the blank to the correct length + a few thou on each end.

OK, so now it is time to see how the blank looks with the hardware parts ..... which I think is your main concern.

If you want to do so, you can apply a finish coat or two to this STILL OVERSIZE blank

Sliding in the tube is not necessary. . All you want is to check the appearance of blank next to hardware, right ?

The hole will be big enough for you to insert the hardware ( nib and finial , or whatever you have and whatever you call them ) at both ends .

Have a good look at it and decide whether to proceed or not.

If you decide that it looks good ....... proceed as below . . . . If not, well, just scrap it and go watch the football game . .

But ....... let's be optimistic ....... so, proceed .......

Glue in the tube. . Let the glue dry/cure.
Trim the blank to the exact length ..... at this stage, this means that you only have a few thou to take off at each end to get to the brass tube end.

You are now ready to turn the tube down to its final size and shape, ....... and then apply the finish.

And then you press in the nib and finial (or whatever).

Hope this is clear. . If you have any problem understanding me, just shoot me a question or two.

***********

I should say that I do not use a mandrel and I do not use bushings.

I use the Turn Between Centers (TBC) method ..... two 60-degree centers ..... fixed center in headstock, live center in tailstock.
The blank (with tube glued in) is held between the two centers. . . I carefully turn the blank down making careful measurements with calipers, until the size is just what I need to match the size of the hardware pieces at each end.

If you want to stick with mandrel and bushings that should be OK also.

I hope this works for you as well as it works for me . . I know that it probably sounds complicated, but it really isn't once you get used to it.
Thanks to you (and everyone for their experience and advice). You are correct in that I just want to turn enough to get a "feel" for how it will look. If I don't like it with the hardware then I can save it for later and drill appropriately for a different kit that suites. Thanks again!!!
 

tipastar

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Joined
Nov 19, 2020
Messages
4
Location
St. Louis, Missouri
Nothing wrong with your idea. Not wanting to do it that often but if you have a questionable blank, go for it. Just turn it round enough and polish or finish the way you want. If you like what you see either chuck it up in a collet chuck or even a 4 jaw chuck or a pen chuck will work and drill and finish turning as needed. I have done this before.
Great! Thanks for the confirmation!
 

mnerland

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Mar 26, 2019
Messages
124
Location
Bowling Green, KY
Just a different perspective on the question. I will turn a blank round, before drilling to ensure I have enough "meat" to drill. I recently did 2 water buffalo horn pens that had serious curve and hollow areas. I turned these chunks of horn round before drilling and then drilled on my lathe with my Nova Chuck. A stabilized wood blank in square form rarely gives you a good idea of what it will look like. Turning it round will help, somewhat in my opinion. But that's the magic of this hobby, it can always be better than expected.
 

penicillin

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Feb 27, 2019
Messages
1,036
I agree with those who believe that buying spare tubes is the answer. Do the drilling first.

Drilling does not always go according to plan. I have had more than one drilling pop out off center at the other end. Because there was enough material left I was able to turn those problem drillings into nice pens.

Spare tubes are cheap and easy. They serve as an inexpensive "insurance policy" in case something goes wrong with the turning or the finish before assembly. Having spare tubes on hand can relieve a lot of the stress of turning pens, especially for beginners.

True, blanks can be expensive, too. You want to give yourself the greatest chance for success, so why turn it down first and risk a drilling accident? For the cost of a spare tube or two, you now have an insurance policy.
 

eharri446

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Mar 17, 2016
Messages
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Location
Marietta, GA
I have had a couple of times where I did not get the tube in the blank quick enough or put the wrong size tube in the blank, just fit but bushings would not fit. I took the same size drill that I used to drill in the first place and drilled the wrong tube out slowly and carefully. The drill got rid of the wrong blank and cleaned up the hole so that I could put the correct tube in the blank.
 

LK&T

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Dec 1, 2020
Messages
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Location
Sedro Woolley, WA
As of now I'm turning my blank round before I drill, but making sure there's plenty of meat left on the blank. I do this because I drill the hole on the lathe and I think I get better concentricity between the blank, chuck, pen jaws, drill chuck and tailstock with the blank round. If you don't turn the blank round first, it would have to be perfectly square and sit in the jaws perfectly to get the same result. And since I'm cutting my blanks out of my own stock instead of buying blanks, this lets me be lazy and not care if my blanks are perfectly square in the first place. Of course this also give me a chance to take a look at -roughly- what the finished blank will look like. It's wood, so it's not always gonna be WYSIWYG.
 
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leehljp

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Feb 6, 2005
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A word of warning on turning before drilling. In most worlds of drilling in wood, there is a large amount of wood surrounding the area being drilled. The sheer mass of the wood around where the hole is being drilled will keep the wood intact, and upholds the integrity of the wood. Take the mass away (as in a pen blank) and you take away its ability to remain intact while drilling in many many cases. That is why blank clamps are fairly effective - by holding the blank together as one drills. Drilling creates large amounts of minuscule tensions, distortions and fractures in all directions. Without excess mass surrounding it, the wood will come apart.

IF, IF one is familiar with these forces, and prepares for these tiny fracturing forces within, drilling after turning - can work. That is why I mentioned above covering with gauze and CA'ing the heck out of it. To give the structure some integrity. Drilling on the lathe works better because the lathe in general is more precise and has less runout than most drill presses. There may be other factors at work also.

I don't want to give the idea that drilling AFTER turning is without problems; There are, but caution is needed. Don't try this the first few times on an expensive or rare blank.

"Integrity" in the above context: soundness, robustness, strength, sturdiness, solidity, solidness, durability, stability, stoutness, toughness.
 
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