Transitioning from carbide to HSS

[rfas]

I'm considering trying to slowly make the transition from carbide to HSS tools. I know HSS tools have a bit of a learning curve to them, so my thought process is that I buy a couple and just play with them on scrap material. I've watched enough turning videos that I think I can eventually figure it out once I get my hands on them. One big hang-up though is the sharpening station. The way I see it, I have a couple options:

- Buy a low speed grinder (around $200), but then I need various sharpening jigs to get all of the proper angles for all of the tools (roughly another $200). Sharpening is another skill in itself that I will need to master. I do kitchen knife sharpening all the time (I have a pro jig for that), so it couldn't be that hard to learn.

- Buy a dedicated sharpening machine like a Tormek or a Sorby Pro Edge (another $500 - $600).

It seems to me that something like the Tormek T-4 would be the preferable way to go, and adding sharpening capability to my shop would also allow me to invest in things like a nice chisel set for the rest of my woodworking, so sort of a win-win.

Am I missing anything here? Any other tips on making the transition?

 

[Paul in OKC]

I have never made the transition to carbide . I used to be very annul worrying about sharpening. I read something by Richard Raffin once about it, and he said he just decided he was spending too much time sharpening and not enough time turning, so he went to a bench grinder near where he was turning and just ouch up as needed. I have a cheap 6" grinder I have had for 20+ years with the smoother blue wheel on one side and that is all I use. Generally angles can be kept close enough to cut well. Just my thoughts.

 

[Alan Morrison]

Good question, Ray. I'm going to keep an eye on the responses here.
I have only turned pens and used carbide, but was given a set of turning chisels and would like to try a platter or two.
I also need to learn sharpening and find the equipment that suits best.

 

[rfas]

Good question, Ray. I'm going to keep an eye on the responses here.
I have only turned pens and used carbide, but was given a set of turning chisels and would like to try a platter or two.
I also need to learn sharpening and find the equipment that suits best.

I've turned a few bowls, but carbide just shreds the heck out of the stock and you spend an eternity sanding. Even with pens - carbide works beautifully with acrylic, but with wood, depending on the specific species of wood, sometimes the turned barrel comes out rather rough. Sanding a pen barrel isn't much of a big deal though. I don't know, it's something I keep wavering on. Is it a rabbit hole I want to go down or not? I can turn perfectly good stuff so far with carbide, but I feel like HSS would open up a few more doors.

 

[KenB259]

I've turned a few bowls, but carbide just shreds the heck out of the stock and you spend an eternity sanding. Even with pens - carbide works beautifully with acrylic, but with wood, depending on the specific species of wood, sometimes the turned barrel comes out rather rough. Sanding a pen barrel isn't much of a big deal though. I don't know, it's something I keep wavering on. Is it a rabbit hole I want to go down or not? I can turn perfectly good stuff so far with carbide, but I feel like HSS would open up a few more doors.

I'm scratching my head a little on this one. I petty much only use carbide on pens, mostly wood, mostly segmented. I rarely use sandpaper at all. I can get a smooth as a skew finish with my carbide, but I do it backwards from most of the carbide write ups. I rough to size with the round carbide and finish up with a 2" square radius. The latter applied with a shearing cut. I have plenty of HSS tools and know how to use them, but to be honest, I much prefer carbide.

 

[Alan Morrison]

I'm scratching my head a little on this one. I petty much only use carbide on pens, mostly wood, mostly segmented. I rarely use sandpaper at all. I can get a smooth as a skew finish with my carbide, but I do it backwards from most of the carbide write ups. I rough to size with the round carbide and finish up with a 2" square radius. The latter applied with a shearing cut. I have plenty of HSS tools and know how to use them, but to be honest, I much prefer carbide.

I do much the same, Ken and if I just ever turned pens I wouldnt change. However I would like to branch out a wee bit and turn a few platters, and having a set of HSS and never used them, I want blow the cobwebs off them.

 

[KenB259]

I do much the same, Ken and if I just ever turned pens I wouldnt change. However I would like to branch out a wee bit and turn a few platters, and having a set of HSS and never used them, I want blow the cobwebs off them.

I would probably be rusty with mine, It's been awhile since I've used them.

 

[WriteON]

I went from carbide to HSS. I went way that for a few reasons. I use a 3/4" oval or flat skew. I use it as a scraper…. Horizontally. I only turn pens. I have both the Sorby and a WS3000.

 

[rfas]

I'm scratching my head a little on this one. I petty much only use carbide on pens, mostly wood, mostly segmented. I rarely use sandpaper at all. I can get a smooth as a skew finish with my carbide, but I do it backwards from most of the carbide write ups. I rough to size with the round carbide and finish up with a 2" square radius. The latter applied with a shearing cut. I have plenty of HSS tools and know how to use them, but to be honest, I much prefer carbide.

That's interesting. I'll have to try it that way and see if it makes a difference. I definitely find that I need to sand through all of the grits every time. I end up with pits where you can literally see where fibers got ripped out of the wood, and that's consistent with what nearly everybody says will happen with carbide.

 

[Alan Morrison]

I end up with pits where you can literally see where fibers got ripped out of the wood, and that's consistent with what nearly everybody says will happen with carbide.

Are your tools sharp? Or what timber does that happen to?

 

[rfas]

Are your tools sharp? Or what timber does that happen to?

Yes, my tools are very sharp. I haven't kept detailed notes on my turning, but I've turned a lot of exotic hardwoods like zebrawood, canarywood, bubinga, wenge, etc. The harder species usually have some pits that I have to sand out. The softer species tend to come out a little bit "fuzzy" looking, like there are many little strands holding on. Sanding through the grits from 150 down to 600 smooths it out nicely, with the bulk of the sanding at 150 and just quick passes through the rest of the grits to get rid of the scratches.

 

[WriteON]

Soft and fuzzy might be an uncontrollable characteristic

 

[NGLJ]

I only use carbide for all of my turning and have no ambition to switch to HSS. For pen turning I use an Easy Tools 6mm negative rake cutter with 2" radius which I find works really well. I also make segmented bowls and haven't experienced any particular difficulty even with open segment bowls which are trickier. A trend to bear in mind is carbide tools that are appearing which behave very similar to HSS, eg. Hunter Tool Systems. I purchased the Osprey #2 with which I am currently practicing.

 

[leehljp]

I have carbide and HSS. AS to carbide, to me it depends on the inserts that are used. There are some that are finer than others and they cost more. When Carbide inserts first came to be used, as mentioned on this forum, they did not have the sharpness of fine tuned HSS. Even now, I cannot believe that even the best carbide can out cut a freshly and finely sharpened HSS. It might be very close but still a difference can be noted.

I too have read of some great turners who don't see the need of keeping everything on the very finest of edges, but it depends on the individual. I am somewhat obsessive and get a great feeling when the smoothest feel of wood that surpasses any sanding takes place.

I have a worksharpe, two grinders, a Tormek knock-off from Grizzly and use the scary sharp stick-on-sandpaper of several grades down to .5microns fitted to plate glass. First, the Tormek is SLOW. The Tormek is great for keeping tools sharp but not so good for "shaping" the tool initially or if nicked - in which case the re-shaping is very very slow.

On one of my two grinders I have two CBN wheels and they are the cats meow! Fast and sharp without damaging the edge with heat like a normal grinder.

Here are a couple of links with CBN wheel discussions on this forum:

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f30/cbn-wheel-question-s-147589/

CBN Wheels for grinder

I am considering an 8 inch CBN grinding wheel for my Delta VS grinder. I have not seen any thread here specifically dedicated to 1. CBN wheels, 2. grit choices, 3. width; 4. curved or flat and 5. brand. There have been a few threads where some of these characteristics have been discussed, but I...

www.penturners.org

 

[rfas]

I only use carbide for all of my turning and have no ambition to switch to HSS. For pen turning I use an Easy Tools 6mm negative rake cutter with 2" radius which I find works really well. I also make segmented bowls and haven't experienced any particular difficulty even with open segment bowls which are trickier. A trend to bear in mind is carbide tools that are appearing which behave very similar to HSS, eg. Hunter Tool Systems. I purchased the Osprey #2 with which I am currently practicing.

Great information. Thanks!

 

[MRDucks2]

I have HSS and carbide and use them both, sometimes in the same turning session depending on what I am doing. I did get the Rikon 1800 RPM grinder and found I could sharpen and touch up well with no jigs. However, when it came to reshaping it took a lot of practice and finally learning a few pointers from others to get a new shape freehand that wasn't full of facets.

odd thing is that once I figured out how to reshape freehand I got a deal on a jig set-up and better guides for the Rikon and it saves me time, I must admit.

Sometimes I turn all the way through with HSS, another time with carbide and may start with either and switch to the other depending on the wood (and the operator) is acting that day.

 

[Charlie_W]

The best thing you can do is to spend some time with an accomplished turner. Try different chisels and different grinding jigs.
many turners will welcome you to their shop and generously give you one on one. Also, take them to lunch for giving of their time and advice.

 

[Chasper]

I only turn pens, only use carbide for antler, stone and metal and only use HSS for wood and resin. I keep 3 scrapers and 3 skews in rotation. I sharpen all three of each after about 25-35 pen sections. I have a Wolverine sharpening system on a 8" slow speed 2 wheel grinder. I put all the Wolverine guides away years ago and replaced them with small adjustable platforms. I've used expensive tools like Sorby and Henry Taylor and lower priced tools like Stone Mountain. Now I only buy the cheapest, when they are sharp they all work great. I grind them down to a nub in a few years anyway. My experience is that HSS is much easier to use, I don't like carbide for wood or resin.

 

[howsitwork]

Well i have never , on my wood lathe, tried carbide as yet. I like HSS and , for scrapers carbon steel but you do need FREQUENT touch ups with a diamond lap on the CS.

8" grinder with aloxite wheel and grey fine wheel. CBN would be nice but only got these a couple of years back so lots of life in them. Also got another 8" with 120 grit and 60 grit wheels for reshaping

Just got a Tormek for the skews but as yet not used it to polish them up.

I use a sorby jig on the white ( 2" wide)wheel and a variable platform on the grey one. ESSENTIAL to keep the wheels clean and free cutting . A diamond matrix tool helps ENORMOUSLY with that .

Going back to simple angled platform for my detail ( spindle ) gouges as not happy with the results from jig set up with them but that's my issue probably not the jig.

 

[crokett]

I have both carbide and HSS tools. I use carbide for the acrylic pens. Done correctly once the blank is round it peels off in a continuous peel that gets sucked right into my vacuum and leaves a fairly smooth finish. I use HSS, usually a straight chisel, on wood pens. I find a straight chisel easier to use than a skew. It leaves a very nice surface. For platters and bowls I use HSS, not carbide. I sharpen on a low-speed grinder with the wolverine system. I can free hand the straight chisel or parting tool. I use the jigs for the bowl and spindle gouges.

 

[TonyL]

I use both (80%HSS and 20% carbide) depending on the material. I don't think there is a need for both, but I find it is nice to have the option.
I do use HSS when use brittle materials or I want very light finishing cuts. I may sharpen/hone my HSS two or three times per barrel- may be overkill, but that is how I like to turn. I sharpen using CBN wheels on a low speed grinder with robo rest.

 

[leehljp]

On most materials, including wood, the defining issue with sharpness (HSS or Carbide Insert) is can you finish turning to size with an exceptional smoothness (in most cases glassy smooth) without the need for sanding after turning? Technique is important but technique alone cannot. With the right sharpness And with good technique it is easy to do once learned. That is with either a scraper or with a skew. Both can accomplish it.