Critiquing. How to do it? Should you do it? Simple questions, but personally, I struggle with it. I seen a pen a few days ago, not on this site I might add, that had so many issues, in my opinion, shouldn't have even been assembled. Now this pen I seen was top end components and a very expensive blank. It was severely overturned on one end, very out of round n the middle and none of it was squared, huge gaps where the blank met the components, yet the poster received many accolades on how great a job he or she had done. That's a pet peeve of mine. Now I know my standards of quality are high, but I only hold myself to them. If someone gets high praises for lackluster work, will they try and improve? Is it a blackeye on us all? It's easy to misread a post and take offense when none was intended. I grew up in a generation where you actually had to try out for the team and you didn't get a award for just showing up. Accolades actually mean something to me and are actually offensive to me, if I don't believe I deserve them. What da ya think?
Touchy Subject
- Thread starter KenB259
- Start date
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jalbert
Member
Scroll on past unless the poster asks for criticism?
PatrickR
Member
Unless the op ask for c&c I refrai.
monophoto
Member
I've been involved in photography for over 50 years, and have often been asked to judge other people's work. The basic principles in judging photography also apply to judging pen turning or any other form of craft.
1. As John said, only offer comments if you are specifically asked to offer comments. Often, people show work as a way of bragging about what they have done. Suggestions are likely to not be welcome in that situation, and offering unwanted comments could trigger an unpleasant confrontation.
2. NEVER phrase a comment in a way that could be interpreted as critical of the maker. Instead, all comments should be focused on the work itself.
3. NEVER be totally dismissive of the work. I've seen judges say things like 'this is so bad the maker shouldn't have even shown it for comments', or in the case of wood turning, 'this would make good firewood'.
4. ALWAYS offer constructive comments about how the work could be improved. Makers who are asking for criticism are generally trying to improve their work, so be as helpful as possible.
5. And take the time to fully explain WHY improvements are needed, and HOW to achieve the desired results. You want the maker to come away from the encounter understanding that the comments were intended to be constructive and helpful.
6. While it's not always possible, try to find something positive to say about the work at the same time you are making suggestions for improvement. Offering a compliment will often blunt the emotional distress of hearing that there are problems with the work.
1. As John said, only offer comments if you are specifically asked to offer comments. Often, people show work as a way of bragging about what they have done. Suggestions are likely to not be welcome in that situation, and offering unwanted comments could trigger an unpleasant confrontation.
2. NEVER phrase a comment in a way that could be interpreted as critical of the maker. Instead, all comments should be focused on the work itself.
3. NEVER be totally dismissive of the work. I've seen judges say things like 'this is so bad the maker shouldn't have even shown it for comments', or in the case of wood turning, 'this would make good firewood'.
4. ALWAYS offer constructive comments about how the work could be improved. Makers who are asking for criticism are generally trying to improve their work, so be as helpful as possible.
5. And take the time to fully explain WHY improvements are needed, and HOW to achieve the desired results. You want the maker to come away from the encounter understanding that the comments were intended to be constructive and helpful.
6. While it's not always possible, try to find something positive to say about the work at the same time you are making suggestions for improvement. Offering a compliment will often blunt the emotional distress of hearing that there are problems with the work.
Here's another point to think about. If I see someone giving someone high praises on mediocre work, and I get high praises on something I do, from that person, should I be proud? To me, it would be pretty meaningless. I am certainly not encouraging anyone be mean or ruthless. Take into account someone's experience, but I was brought up that honesty is something to be cherished and praise is to be earned.
monophoto
Member
Probably not - - - BUT you should also ask yourself whether that person could be seeing something in the work that you don't see.
Good point.
Drewby108
Member
If I absolutely feel the need to give a critique unbidden, then I'll make a complement sandwich. Point out what they did well, critique, then another compliment. Mileage varies on the effectiveness of this.
leehljp
Member Liaison
I got critiqued on some of my early on and the guys were not critical, but pointed out problems in a "passive" voice such as:
"Is it the pticture or did you leave the blank a little proud on the nib end?"
Or:
"IS it the photo, or is the ends a little out of round? . . . or another - "unsquare?"
In none of those posts did I ask for critiquing, but those guys were easy on me, yet told me mildly where my turning did not measure up or could stand improving. That was very very helpful to me.
For others, Most of the time, I don't comment, but I do feel like that that I am missing a chance to help someone improve when I don't.
• Some people can't take constructive criticism, (LOML has one of those personalities!) so I learned to offer different suggestions or questions such as "how would it look if . . . ? etc.
• Some people do not want any suggestions and will tell you so. We have had a few here in the past.
"Is it the pticture or did you leave the blank a little proud on the nib end?"
Or:
"IS it the photo, or is the ends a little out of round? . . . or another - "unsquare?"
In none of those posts did I ask for critiquing, but those guys were easy on me, yet told me mildly where my turning did not measure up or could stand improving. That was very very helpful to me.
For others, Most of the time, I don't comment, but I do feel like that that I am missing a chance to help someone improve when I don't.
• Some people can't take constructive criticism, (LOML has one of those personalities!) so I learned to offer different suggestions or questions such as "how would it look if . . . ? etc.
• Some people do not want any suggestions and will tell you so. We have had a few here in the past.
This is a very good way to say this and it states the purpose of this thread better than I did.
Kenny Durrant
Member
Good question Ken and a tough call. Things are different when you and I grew up. This topic could be discussed for ever and still not have a good idea on how to handle these situations in general. One thing I'd like to add to the suggestions already given is
#1 if he asked I might send him a PM and not do it where others can see. If it's they're first they may not know what to watch for. That was my case when I first started some of my hobbies.
#2 It never hurst to be nice. If you can't say something good or in a good way I'd leave it alone.
#3 if a person gives lesser work the same complement as mine I'd ask myself are they being nice or just not know the difference. .
#1 if he asked I might send him a PM and not do it where others can see. If it's they're first they may not know what to watch for. That was my case when I first started some of my hobbies.
#2 It never hurst to be nice. If you can't say something good or in a good way I'd leave it alone.
#3 if a person gives lesser work the same complement as mine I'd ask myself are they being nice or just not know the difference. .
BULLWINKLE
Member
Why get someone angry at you ? You know that sooner or later someone else will say it is suboptimal workmanship. Let them get angry at someone else. Just ignore it. Perhaps criticism would help them improve (or not) but I wouldn't want to be the one to give it. Just my opinion. Also it's possible that some of the flaws you noticed aren't flaws but appear to be due to poor photography. I've seen awesome pictures posted but my photos are not always great.
Joebobber
Member
So your problem is that someone did art differently than how you prefer your art and you want to know how to critique them? How is someone doing their best version of an art form and getting compliments (or accolades) offensive to you? Would you prefer there was a Major league pen turning forum where only people who were as good as you could share their art? Or maybe we all get a ranking and you can only comment on something posted by someone with a lower ranking. In the end what does it matter if this person or that person makes something and shares it? If I am proud of something I made does it hurt you or anyone? This stuff about how your generation didn't get awards for showing up is nonsense. In the end all you really need to do is TREAT OTHERS HOW YOU WANT TO BE TREATED. Let's say you post something you're proud of. There is always someone better than you. Should they tear you down? Is that how you want to be treated? Woodturning is an artform. Bushings are just suggestions. Doing different things different ways is how you grow to be better.
See it seems like your pissed off at me because I asked a couple of questions. You totally misconstrued my comment. My point is ,it is offensive to "ME" if someone says "MY" work is great, when it is a total POS. That is patronizing and it is offensive.
leehljp
Member Liaison
I am very glad that several experienced pen makers took the time to move me in the right direction by telling me what I was doing wrong or what I missed, even when I didn't ask. I have made ugly pens that the individual parts looked great but when put together looked so busy that it was plum ugly. Ugly is ugly and is not art no matter what. Similar to what Ken wrote above, a patronizing comment on something I know is not the best is offensive to me too and does not build any kind of trust.
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Woodchipper
Member
Many good answers. Criticism can be destructive or constructive. If a person asks, be kind and tactful in pointing out what might be problems or oversight due to lack of experience. Example is the blank sitting proud of the components. Been there, done that.
I can take criticism...been married 50 years.
I can take criticism...been married 50 years.
Joebobber
Member
No Im definitely NOT mad. I just happen to think that it really doesn't matter. Why would you post something you yourself are not proud of? If its junk but you're proud of it who cares what anyone else thinks.
jttheclockman
Member
Wow the subject is tricky and the answer or opinion coming from me who has been ridiculed many times here for being nit picky and rude and condescending and I am sure many more adjectives can be applied and I can just see smiles on certain faces as I write this. So here are a few more. 
Say what you want, today's world has changed and thin skinned is in. I will keep my comments in regards to the OP question here. There are various components to what he is asking. I will start by stating when I show a pen or any work that I do I always or try to at least include at the end "any comments or questions always welcomed" Now I did not use the word critique but comments to me means good or bad. If there is something that is not right I would like to hear about it and maybe leads to a discussion. It gets said here many times we are our worst jury when it comes to judging our work. This is true so we maybe proud of what we did but missed something and if explained by a poster that should be taken with intent of helping. I have to say I have not seen any true put downs from members here in quite a long time. Go back and look at some of the older threads and see how much this site has changed. 
Heck we use to have a contest in the Bash that was all about the ugliest pen one can make.
Now I many times will not like a pen or just move past a pen if it does not interest me. No harm no foul in my opinion. I have seen pens shown on FB and even here where the pen has no interest to me it gets tons of likes and reviews just because of who made it. That is fine and again no harm no foul. But what gets me at times is when pens get all the accolades and I can see so many flaws in it I have to smirk to myself. Now at times even though the OP did not request critique I may add a tip or two. Now if they take it as a dig or any other way then that is on them. If you can not accept critique then why show your work. No one here has ever made that perfect pen. Many times when photographed only the good sides are shown and the flaws are hidden in some fashion. Fine. We are not here to hand out awards and ribbons.
Other part of the OP question is if a person or persons continue giving high praise to lesser quality pens shown, and when he shows a pen and those same people give him the same treatment does that have an effect on what they said in his mind. I say take it with a grain of salt and move on. Over time you get to know the membership here and can weed out the true makers and spokespeople. Not every pen made can be that WOW pen. We need to encourage the beginners and hopefully they are open for critique. If I see a great looking pen I will comment because to me it was worthy. Again this is just my opinion.
Say what you want, today's world has changed and thin skinned is in. I will keep my comments in regards to the OP question here. There are various components to what he is asking. I will start by stating when I show a pen or any work that I do I always or try to at least include at the end "any comments or questions always welcomed" Now I did not use the word critique but comments to me means good or bad. If there is something that is not right I would like to hear about it and maybe leads to a discussion. It gets said here many times we are our worst jury when it comes to judging our work. This is true so we maybe proud of what we did but missed something and if explained by a poster that should be taken with intent of helping. I have to say I have not seen any true put downs from members here in quite a long time. Go back and look at some of the older threads and see how much this site has changed. Heck we use to have a contest in the Bash that was all about the ugliest pen one can make.Now I many times will not like a pen or just move past a pen if it does not interest me. No harm no foul in my opinion. I have seen pens shown on FB and even here where the pen has no interest to me it gets tons of likes and reviews just because of who made it. That is fine and again no harm no foul. But what gets me at times is when pens get all the accolades and I can see so many flaws in it I have to smirk to myself. Now at times even though the OP did not request critique I may add a tip or two. Now if they take it as a dig or any other way then that is on them. If you can not accept critique then why show your work. No one here has ever made that perfect pen. Many times when photographed only the good sides are shown and the flaws are hidden in some fashion. Fine. We are not here to hand out awards and ribbons.
Other part of the OP question is if a person or persons continue giving high praise to lesser quality pens shown, and when he shows a pen and those same people give him the same treatment does that have an effect on what they said in his mind. I say take it with a grain of salt and move on. Over time you get to know the membership here and can weed out the true makers and spokespeople. Not every pen made can be that WOW pen. We need to encourage the beginners and hopefully they are open for critique. If I see a great looking pen I will comment because to me it was worthy. Again this is just my opinion.
TellicoTurning
Member
My philosophy is that unless asked, I don't critique.
On my work, you may critique it if you are buying or if I ask... most times you ain't and I didn't.
On my work, you may critique it if you are buying or if I ask... most times you ain't and I didn't.
I think it often depends on who is giving the compliment. If it is a non-turner, who doesn't have experience, and doesn't see the flaws every time a pen is made or shared like we do...then, that should be accounted for.
If the person giving the compliment IS a turner, and knows the challenges, is aware of the kinds of flaws that detract from a quality pen...then that, too, should be accounted for.
I have found, with both my photography and my turning, that pretty much every piece I turn is "awesome" to most people. They see something they think they could never make, and its made out of these natural materials that often have incredible natural characteristics...so, to most people, they are just stunned and amazed by the whole piece at large... They don't see the details.
To me, one of the last platters I made ended up with a couple patches of notable sanding scratches that I somehow missed when doing my sanding job. I was greatly dismayed at the piece, because I had already finished it, and in fact had let that finish, just oil, dry enough that...maybe i can't fix it. Crazy thing, at least to me, is that not one person I've ever shown it to has ever commented on the, what to me are blatantly obvious and notable scratches in a few places on the bottom. When I point them out, most people say no one will notice!! Which certainly seems to be the case...
The layman will, most likely, always be impressed by things they may think they couldn't do (even if they could!!!)
The artisan SHOULD notice the details, and should account for them when giving accolades... If an artisan, especially a skilled one, gives high praise for an, to an artisan, obviously flawed piece...yes, I would think that would normally be seen at the very least as meaningless, if not patronizing, maybe even discouraging.
I would say, these factors should be taken into account...when both receiving compliments, as well as giving them. I try to call out notably exceptional details when I see them, if I am giving a compliment. In particular, because I have trouble with this myself, when I see flawless seams between blank and hardware, I'm truly impressed by that, and feel it needs to be called out. When I see a segmented blank with exceptional alignment between all segments throughout the blank, I feel that needs to be called out. When I see a celtic knot that actually looks like a knot, with proper layering, I feel that needs to be called out.
I guess, in general, I try to find positive qualities to call out....I would say I don't generally give out high praise for a piece I don't think meets the bar. In such cases, I probably don't comment at all.
I guess I also don't really give hard critique on a piece, unless someone has asked for it. Occasionally I sometimes give spontaneous critique, if I sense or otherwise figure the person would be receptive. Its probably best to keep critique, which can often be taken the wrong way, only for those who actually ask for it, though.
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randyrls
Member
I have always followed the principle or "Praise in public, criticize in private".
monophoto
Member
Saw this T-shirt back in May. Seems pertinent to this discussion.
wouldentu2?
Member
If you like it , praise them. If not praise them anyway because that little bit of praise from another penturner will motivate them to keep at it and improve just by the sheer repetition.
greenacres2
Member
One of the first pens i made (and posted here) was a very oversized cigar. One of our Aussie friends (Brian?? i should remember and don't) commented to the effect that it was a fine effort, "...but don't be so afraid of the bushings." That comment didn't make me a good turner, but it inspired me to try to be better every time out. That one pat on the back with an encouragement to improve has provided a sense of self-satisfaction every time i see that i've done something better.
I will benefit from that one comment for the rest of my creative days, and for that i am grateful.
earl
I will benefit from that one comment for the rest of my creative days, and for that i am grateful.
earl
mark james
IAP Collection, Curator
Brian Hawkins - OZturner. Very polite and encouraging; wish more were like him!
Todd in PA
Member
My thoughts: Some people are helped by being encouraged. Others are helped by showing need for improvement. Using the wrong message with the wrong type will be received badly. It's not the speaker but the hearer. So to my way of thinking I can't answer OPs questions.
It's both.
The only way to know which person you're talking to is to have some sort of actual relationship with that person. You have to know their story. And a lot of people have a story in their heads that tells them they're no good and are unliked. A lot of other people have a story going about how awesome they are, independent of whether there's a real achievement or not (probably just a cover story because they can't tolerate feeling vulnerable).
A community message board can build relationships, but it takes a long time and a lot of interactions. If I don't know which person I'm talking to, I try to stay silent or be positive/complimentary as many people have already said.
I greatly respect the brave people who ask for critique, as well as the ones who have the courage to be honest in a dignified way.
It's both.
The only way to know which person you're talking to is to have some sort of actual relationship with that person. You have to know their story. And a lot of people have a story in their heads that tells them they're no good and are unliked. A lot of other people have a story going about how awesome they are, independent of whether there's a real achievement or not (probably just a cover story because they can't tolerate feeling vulnerable).
A community message board can build relationships, but it takes a long time and a lot of interactions. If I don't know which person I'm talking to, I try to stay silent or be positive/complimentary as many people have already said.
I greatly respect the brave people who ask for critique, as well as the ones who have the courage to be honest in a dignified way.
Interesting discussion for sure. Few will remember the "Critiques Forum" we had, which closed in Sept 2005. The creation of that forum was motivated by a thread similar to this one. The idea was if you wanted a critique of your work, overall or some aspect of it, you posted it there. A few things motivated us to close it -- it devolved into something like SOPY, where most comments were "nice pen, good job". There were also frequent arguments between those giving the critiques. "Oh yeah, well let's see YOUR work" was not an infrequent comment.
We considered reopening that forum in 2007, but a big argument erupted over that, so it stayed dead.
We considered reopening that forum in 2007, but a big argument erupted over that, so it stayed dead.
dogcatcher
Member
I am on a tobacco pipemakers forum, the rules are rather "relaxed", in the show off your work section, the critiques are "brutal". Not a place for the thin skinned or easily offended.
I and a lot of others learned more from a few of those "brutal" critiques, than all of the attaboys combined.
Sadly that forum opened a social media page and the posting traffic has slowed to a trickle and the benefits from the experts has also.
You can learn a lot from your mistakes, but only if you know you have made those mistakes.
I and a lot of others learned more from a few of those "brutal" critiques, than all of the attaboys combined.
Sadly that forum opened a social media page and the posting traffic has slowed to a trickle and the benefits from the experts has also.
You can learn a lot from your mistakes, but only if you know you have made those mistakes.
I would just like to add that there are lots of hobbies that people post to on public forums. With that, there are always those that can give critique in a respectful way and there's the 10% that cannot. There are also those that can accept critique and those that cannot. It's a thin line that's easy to cross not knowing who's on the other side.
greenacres2
Member
Thanks Mark, perfect!! Appreciate your memory!!
earl
jttheclockman
Member
Remember it well.
jttheclockman
Member
Many schools of thought have passed through these pages as they did when Jeff brought up the fact we tried to have a special forum just for critiquing pens. Not signaling anyone out but just trying to highlight some thoughts that were made. One is say nothing. Next is say nothing unless asked. Next is say something with PM. Next is say something but be polite. All can be applied but other factors come into play. One is the poster needs to understand if they ask for critiques they need to take them in the spirit they are intended (to help YOU) but by helping you the replier may also be helping others that are too shy to ask questions and they run into the same things the OP asked critiques about. So can work two ways. The main poster also has to realize that even though they are asking for critiques, what they are getting is opinions (some can be from past experiences or from what others have said and they are just repeating). I have seen many times here people posting pens and ask for critiques but it is so hard to do just by looking at a photo (maybe main poster does not have great photography skills or angles of photo just do not lend itself to a hard critique) .
Other thoughts. Telling someone you like their pen but really do not does no justice to them. Yes we all like to read accolades. But too many likes can stimmey the growth of the pen turner too. a fine line at times. One thing Jeff did not bring up in his look back to the other forum that fueled the debate, was and is still a controversial question too, Craftsman or Artist. Do you consider yourself a Craftsman or Artist? When answering critique questions what hat are you wearing? Few people can wear both. But I see many times here more craftsman than artists. (please it is just an opinion) So as I mentioned in first posting, I believe over time being on this forum you will get a sense of who is what and look harder at their responses. One final thing I believe good conversation can come out of critiquing someone's work. Cliques are always formed on every site and this can have an effect of answers or replys to any question asked. But I still believe this forum is one of the calmest and subdued sites I visit. I do not see the hard put downs of anyone here. We all can learn more and more in this great hobby and showing our work is a great way to do it.
Other thoughts. Telling someone you like their pen but really do not does no justice to them. Yes we all like to read accolades. But too many likes can stimmey the growth of the pen turner too. a fine line at times. One thing Jeff did not bring up in his look back to the other forum that fueled the debate, was and is still a controversial question too, Craftsman or Artist. Do you consider yourself a Craftsman or Artist? When answering critique questions what hat are you wearing? Few people can wear both. But I see many times here more craftsman than artists. (please it is just an opinion) So as I mentioned in first posting, I believe over time being on this forum you will get a sense of who is what and look harder at their responses. One final thing I believe good conversation can come out of critiquing someone's work. Cliques are always formed on every site and this can have an effect of answers or replys to any question asked. But I still believe this forum is one of the calmest and subdued sites I visit. I do not see the hard put downs of anyone here. We all can learn more and more in this great hobby and showing our work is a great way to do it.
@jttheclockman I think I'm more of an artist than a craftsman. I can kind of draw out what I want something to look like, but it doesn't always turn out that way in the end. Lol Or I may just fall into a category just below both of them. Lol
GaryMGg
Member
Long ago, some on this site earned a reputation for asking for criticism of their work being unable to accept it.
At the same time, we had some whose critiques were personal and nasty.
It's a tricky balance telling someone their baby is ugly without hurting their feelings.