tool quality Expectations

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Daniel

Daniel

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Jan 1, 2004
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The members of this group come from all walks of life and all avenues of experiences. many of those had little or no experience with tools, quality of tools or any need or ability to evaluate the quality of a tool even if they are holding it in there hand.

I for example can take a glance at a wrench and tell you if it will work well or make a disaster of that auto repair you are about to attempt. My father on the other hand is still trying to do tune ups with a flea market quality set of tools and to this day is convinced that he cannot repair cars.

Often a penturner has nothing to go on but pictures in a catalog and recomendations from posts on forums such as this. Often the recomendations have less meaning to new turners than the pictures in the catalog.

There are many others here that have had a lifetime of experience with tools and have learned why a $20 drill bit is worth more than a $5 one. They have also developed an expectation of what they will get for $5 and what they will get for $20. In short they have a better honed "Expectation" of the quality of a tool they chose to buy.

There are those that are of the school that they will never buy a cheap (read inexpensive) tool. others will never buy a cheap (read low quality) tool. they are not the same thing. they are both an way to reach the same end. a quality tool that will get a job done with quality results. but they both require different knowledge. one requires you know a quality tool when you see it. the other requires you have a fair knowledge of the price of various tools.

so this is a discussion of how do things like tolerances effect the cost and performance of a tool? how does the material a tool is made of effect the quality performance and cost of a tool. And most importantly, what information do you have to share in how to recognize that a more expensive tool is in fact better quality. This is not a discussion for only those that have knowledge to share information. it is also a discussion for those of you that feel like you don't know to ask questions or share experiences.

for example what exactly is the difference between a 9/16 inch combination wrench that you can buy at any flea market for $1.99 and the one you can buy at sears for $16.99? and is it worth it?

I hope this will help many make educated decisions so they can buy what they need and know what they are buying whether it is expensive or cheap.
 
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Personally I have always thought that it is a bogus argument that just doesn't hold water, spread by people who have more money than talent.

150 years ago, people were working with hand tools, mostly handmade stuff and made amazing things. Did the Wright brothers have a Felder slider to make their airplane?

"A poor craftsman always blames his tools"

I believe this in the very depth of my soul. I've been lucky to be around some very crafty people that could make a turd look good with nothing.

If you want no further evidence that this is true, look at any blank Eagle ever made.

Did he have a $5000 cabinet saw? Nope..just a benchtop cheapy.

I drill with 99 cent drill bits from the flea market, and I don't have any problems.
 
I know of a famous tool maker that says he can charge the price he does because if people pay more they think that they are getting a better quality tool.
According to his web site, he makes the tools himself, which is not true, they are done for him by another tool maker. but he does have very nice packaging, is that worth an extra 60.00 plus shipping and handling! I don't think it is but that is just my perception of perceived value.
 
To echo what Ken said, there certainly are people out there that will only settle for whatever costs the most ... some thinking it must be the best because it was the most expensive, others just to be able to say "it was the most expensive".

I'm also reminded of the famous photographer who attended a lavish diner party. The woman who hosted the event commented to him that she "wished she had a nice camera so she could take such beautiful photographs."
He replied, "And I wish I had your pots and pans so I could cook such a lovely meal."
 
I think there's two sides to the coin. Obviously flawed/ faulty tools will affect your work, and limit what you can do. That is, if you rely only on the tool and put no craftsmanship in the work. Festool has a huge following, and if I have the $$, I'd buy them. But my Ryobi Router did the same job as a festool router. Maybe collet changes and dust collection would be easier on the festool, but the Ryobi still spins the bit. I've upgraded since then to a monster PC and a Bosch kit, and I obviously prefer them. But in the end, they all do the same thing.

For hand tools, I'd say the same thing. Within limits, the cheapie $2 wrench will do the same thing as the $17 Craftsman. Only difference I'd see immediately is the longevity. The plating on the wrench may wear faster on the cheap one, or the metal may be softer and deform if you really need to wrench at it (pun intended). But under normal/ everyday conditions, both will tighten a nut on that shelf or the bike. If you're a car mechanic, you'll probably destroy it much more quickly, but right until that time the $2 wrench will still work.

Same with chisels. I'm fine with my HF starter set and my Benjamin Best chisels. I will probably look into getting some nicer ones, but the only real thing I expect to gain is more material to allow for more sharpening, longer handles for better control on big pieces, and better steel that'll hold an edge longer. But both will cut with the same profile, and my Benjamin Best scraper and HF skew with a diamond stone (from HF as well) work pretty darn well for me right now.
 
I have always bought the best tool for the job. some times its craftsman some times its Snap on. A lot depends on whether I'm making a living from my tools or just feeding my hobby. I always buy the best tool I can afford. Your tools will not magically make you a better craftsman if you have poor working habits, no skills, and no clue as to what your doing. They will however allow you work more efficiently with greater tolerances when you get there.
There are craftsmen who can make wonderful products with the worst tools however better tools would have helped them do it easier and faster. Some times you buy the tool that gets you to the next level and then you move up. i watched, as a young beginning diesel mechanic, other mechanics constantly trade up tools and tool boxes. Some of them fell into buying the name brand habit. If you look around and find out where people end up with their tools and duplicate that, you can save a lot of aggravation and money.Table Saw blades are a good example. IF you buy run of the mill blades you can rip and cross cut etc. but if you buy a really good blade you can rip hardwoods and go right to glue up, no sanding no burns, no saw marks. Thats the difference of a 40 dollar blade and one that gets close to a hundred. Mike
 
Hi, my name is Chris and I'm a tool snob. :biggrin:
I will say more expensive does not always equal better quality. I do own some Festool equipment and they are worth every penny I paid for them. There are some Festool tools that I won't buy because they are not worth the money to me. I don't have a good enough reason to spend $1400 on a chop saw. I buy good drill bits and when I drill acrylic blanks I use the same speed for wood and they don't split or crack. On the other hand I have a set of very expensive hand chisels and my Home Depot set holds an edge just as long as the pricey ones. As was mentioned before longevity does come with higher quality tools.
If I was giving advice to a new tool buyer I would tell them to read Fine Woodworking magazine and look at the tool reviews. they rate the best tool and the best value tool. Also ask people what they use and why. If you could talk to a 17th century Dutch furniture maker you would find that he was using the best tools he could buy or make. Better tools do make for less stress, easier use, faster work, and a better result. But if you are a lousy carpenter with the best tools you can still do a lousy job. It is like target shooting, the least acurate part of your system isn't the rifle, it's the shooter but it does help to have a good rifle.
 
I am not sure where I fall on this. I have an extremely crappy table saw that I feel is holding me back from segmenting but I often wonder if it is the saw or just me. I plan on upgrading to a better one soon and then we will see. I tend to buy the best I can afford but since I can't afford much I tend to go with the el cheapos price wise. I see nothing wrong with people that can afford to drop thousands on higher end tools if they have the money but I doubt that having the best tools will automatically make them a better craftsman (or craftswoman/craftsperson, or whatever we call them nowadays).
 
Daniel

You ask a question that is very subjective. I think we all would love to have the best tools on the market but our budgets tell us otherwise so that is a key factor. I am an electrician and this is my livelyhood and with it comes tools, many tools. I need to buy good quality tools for longevity sake and also to know they will help get me through the job at hand and not let me down. There is a difference between that $2 wrench and that $16 wrench as you put it. I go to tighten that nut with a $2 wrench and next thing you know it I am rounding the head off because the tolerance in the same size wrench is alot different or the metal that is used to make that wrench is softer. Same thing with your basic screwdriver. Yes that .99 one will turn a screw but will it get all knurly doing it as with a better quality one will stand up to those 1000 of screws you need to turn.

I take it to the power tool dept because I am a scrollsawer. I see over and over again this question about what saw to buy. I always tell people to buy the best saw you can afford so you buy once. I read over and over people buy these Ryobi and these other cheaper saws and then complain or ask how to get the vibration out of the saw. They probably get so frustrated and leave a great artform and hobby because of the frustration. Now depends if you are a production scroller as I am then you may want to step up to the higher end money and yes they are worth it. It is like using a cadillac over a VW. People won't see this unless they try them.

That brings me to my point unless someone can try and use different grades of tools and be able to compare them first hand they will not know.This is where this forum and all other type forums come into being a great service. You are talking with people that have used the tools and materials you ask about. These are a valuable tool in its own right. People sometimes buy tools by name and this has changed drastically over the years with all these tool companies merging and shipping things overseas and you have no idea where they are made any more. As far as those tool reviews go in magazines I think they will get you in the ballpark but to me they are bogus. If you look and I have because I get soooo many woodworking magazines and most of them run tool reviews and they vary from mgazine to magazine.

Will that more expensive tool make you a better woodworker or pen turner or so forth, it may and it may not. It can take out alot of the frustrations that go into doing a project and make things easier so that you are not only fighting your abilities but also the tools abilities.

So I guess to sum up my point if you are in the market for buying tools, buy the best you can afford and if you do not know what is the best then ask. There is plenty of information on the web and it will get you there. Just my 2¢
 
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I guess that I feel there is a difference in the quality of tools. Does that mean that I only use the most expensive tools? Nope. But, with that being said I do try to get the best quality that I can afford. That might mean Lowes, Menards, Sears, or even Harbor Freight. I have some Crescent tools from the 60's that are as good, if not better, than anything that I can find today. I believe that if the quality were the same for every tool there would be very few of the high end tools sold.

And while I believe that the skill of the craftsman is the most important ingredient in making a quality product. I also know that if the head stock and tail stock of the lathe is a quarter inch out of alignment (which there are some poor quality lathes that come close to this) most turners will have trouble turing anything that is not out of round.

Just my 2 cents and probably not worth that.

Jerry
 
I think a lot of people fall into the bigger, faster most expensive trap....It's the American Way. We can go out and buy the newest fastest computer made but if it won't run our software it's usless. If I buy a new set of grips for my Harley I'll need a T25 wrench to change them out. A $5.00 set of Torx sockets from HF will work just fine and so what if they go unused for the next 10 years. On the other hand if I was a tech at the dealership and changed out ten to twenty grips a month I'd need a set that was sturdyer and would opt for a $20-$30 set of Craftsman or Snap-On.

When I started turning, that $10 set of turning tools from HF were fine. If I only turned a few items and then quite I was only out a few dollars (oh yeah, I also bought the little $29 lathe kit that clamped to a 2x4). As I became addicted,I felt justified in spending a bit more for a pen turning set. I still can't justify the expense of $100+ single tools. If i turned for a living and they lasted longer or held an edge three times as long it would make sense.

In short match the tool to the job/jobs and frequency of use.

My fifty cents.....
 
I had a big writeup on this, it took 2 minutes to backspace it off.I think I am going to retake up fishing ,I don't remember it being so consuming and vortexing and I used to enjoy it very much.
I just say this about tools =(some can )(some can't)( some will )(some won't)
 
Daniel said:
what exactly is the difference between a 9/16 inch combination wrench that you can buy at any flea market for $1.99 and the one you can buy at sears for $16.99? and is it worth it?
Click to expand...

Warranty Simple answer.

Warranty is why a craftsman used wrench is just as valuable as a craftsman new wrench. There is a guy in my area that canvases flea markets, pawnshops, and craigslist for just this reason. Buy low, replace, sell higher.

I grew up around tools of all kinds. A lot of it comes down to when you find something that works stick with it. The problem is do you want to take a chance on a higher end tool when a lower end (cheaper priced) tool is available?

This is a personal decision based on experience. I know a guy that refuses to buy at harbor freight because every tool he buys there is low quality and doesn't last long. My experience is you get what you pay for but every now and then I will go with a lesser priced tool if it is something I am unsure i will use a lot in the future.

An example of this is the Fein multi-master or multi-tasker whatever it is called that sells for $400. To lazy to walk to my garage. This tool has been around for 15-20 years and is a great tool from germany i think. When the patent expired on it a few years ago you started to see the same tool by dremel, roto, etc for 1/4-1/2 the price. Accessories are even cheaper.

The fein may be a multi tool but it is really for smaller areas and great for the job it serves, but given that its really a tool for smaller areas does it justify the higher price? On this one I would say no if your only doing that job a few times, but yes if your doing that job repeatedly.

There is the right tool for every job, but there is also the right priced tool for every job. Only the individual can make that decision.

Someone mentioned bigger stronger faster as the american way and mentioned snap-on.

That is a GREAT example of going overboard with your tools.

Why would I spend $4,000 on a snap on tool box when the exact same box with ball bearing drawers etc is less then 1/4 the price at Sears? Or spend $100 on a wrench when the same wrench is $20 at sears. Both have the same warranty and both are as convenient to exchange. Snap-on may come to you but what if he is on vacation or will only come on his next sales visit? Your waiting a week when sears is usually no more then a 15-20 min drive. This ties into the warranty aspect I mentioned above.
 
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Daniel is a fine fellow, a great craftsman and entitled to his opinions.
And, considering the state of our economy, I am happy he is willing to spend big bucks on his tools.
Although, admittedly, I know for a fact, not all of his tools came by way of check writing or credit card. :-) He does own one very fine, albeit, quite old, roughing gouge which he acquired in a trade that benefited both parties. But, I digress.
Unfortunately, Daniel's premise is not always accurate. In today's world wide market, there are many items (tools and otherwise) that are sold at different prices, in different packaging by different retailers but are identical. Many router bits are a good example. You can pay from $1.00 each to more than $15.00 for virtually the same product.
His drill bit analogy is also flawed. One of the better known catalog suppliers of pen making stuff sells drill bits for about $16.00 that are, in my experience and opinion, really El Cheapo junk. At stores that specialize in selling low priced import tools they would be $1.00 bits.
It is tough on the buyer. Very hard to know what quality you are getting these days, with all kinds of merchandise. Careful shopping, advice from friends and dealing with reputable stores is good protection.
 
I am in the middle. depending on what I am doing I will judge what I need. Though experience I know you do get what you pay for some times.

I will take a $20 drill bit over a cheapo that will break heat to fast dull after one blank is drilled or also trash a blank as the heat helps it walk even taking plenty of time.

Also I came home a couple years ago gloating how great of a shopper I was buying 5 clamps for $50 from harbor freight when I used each one very gently they all snapped to pieces so basically I took $50 and threw it away. I now buy 2 name brand clamps for $50 and they all work great project after project.

I have a scroll saw that has so much vibration that I hate it and do not scroll anything at all. I sometimes cut a blank in half with it because its there. I have learned so leasons along the way and adding up these $$$ lessons I could have gotten some nice wood. I guess you do not know what you do not know until your learn I just wish sometimes leasons did not coast so much! LOL
 
Lessons are like most schooling...seldom are they free and if we did pay attention and do research it would have paid for itself. I am by trade a plumber I use tools like ridgid for most of the "have to work all the time tools". I do have a cheapo hammer for adjustments but also have a metal no bounce for doing heavy work. I dont recomend these for harry home owner they are not worth the price for occasional use but are crutial for the craftsman who depend on these to make a living with. All in all you can make calls on your tools and the frequency of their use, there are bargains to be had the hard part is determining when you are throwing good money after bad. It has been said this forum is excellent for that type of research.
 
Karin Voorhis said:
Also I came home a couple years ago gloating how great of a shopper I was buying 5 clamps for $50 from harbor freight when I used each one very gently they all snapped to pieces so basically I took $50 and threw it away. I now buy 2 name brand clamps for $50 and they all work great project after project.
Click to expand...

On the other hand, their handscrews (wood clamps), Aluminum bar clamps, pipe clamps, Steel bar clamps, and parallel clamps (Bessy knock-off) have all worked extremely well for me. So while I agree that is you got the quick-grip type clamps, they do indeed stink. But it goes to show you just how much things vary in that store.
 
Daniel,

You have posed a very good question. I was taught to buy the best tools I could afford. Trick is to know which is the best. Just as others have responded, I can think of many tools over the years that were not worth the high cost and I can think of many that were inexpensive that have served well.

So how do you know which tool is the real bargain? My answer is experience. Experience developed from past purchases tells me what to expect from a particular brand or a particular seller. Experience also tells me what quality tool will be needed for a particular task. I hate spending good money for the best tool if it will be seldom used but for everyday use a cheapo tool will soon be a disappointment.

So there, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Larry
 
Consider that this group as a whole will recommend the PH Pen Blank Vise over all others regardless of it being the most expensive option as well as having an extremely long waiting list to consider. I offer this as an example that this group will recognize the difference that quality makes and once they do recognize the difference that quality provides will in fact promote it.
In large part this thread does indicate that this recognition of quality and the benefits of it are the exception rather than the rule. I also realize that all things change.
 
Larry, I strongly agree that much of recognizing quality in a tool and it's benefits comes from experience. It has for me. None could tell me the difference in a good hammer and a bad one. I know it because I have experienced it. It requires hundreds of hours of swinging a hammer to finally get it also.
 
I do a lot of repair on boat docks and launch ramps in the summer time.
I have come to find out I would rather drop the $2 wrench into the lake, rather than the $15 wrench.
It was a short learning spell.

Terry
 
Terry, that is a great example of how the end use of a tool needs to be considered when buying. Most expensive is not always the right answer. I buy cheap drill bits to use when drilling through walls of houses. it hurts less when you feel that nail you just hit.
 
In the interest of priming further discussion I would like to say that the issue of does quality make a difference was not intended to be a part of this post. Feel free to share you opinions on this, but my original post was intended to express that quality does make a difference. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the recognition and the value of quality.

In the interest of that i will attempt to answer in part my own question. I say in part because I simply do not know the complete answer

what exactly is the difference between a 9/16 inch combination wrench that you can buy at any flea market for $1.99 and the one you can buy at sears for $16.99?

First is the material that the wrench is made out of in the first place. A quality wrench is made from better and yes more expensive metal.
The manufacturing process is different. the better quality wrench is machined from a blank much like you machine a pen barrel from a blank, which in turn was stamped from a sheet of steel. lower quality wrenches are made by pouring molten metal in a mold, just like pouring resin in a mold to make a pen blank.
stamping an machining a piece of steel takes far more time, equipment and expense than filling a mold with molten metal. Machining also allows for higher tolerances int he final size of the wrench. this is not limited to the size of it's handle. when molten metal cools it does strange things. it may twist and warp and actually change shape. It will also shrink. this is partially fixed int he lower quality tools by cutting the size that fits the nut or bolt after it has cooled.

quality or tolerances in machining. simply put higher tolerances in machining are more expensive to get. a higher quality wrench may be made to within 1/10000 of an inch of exactly what it is supposed to be. a lower quality wrench may only be 1/1000 if ti is checked at all. in short it is the difference in whether the wrench fits the bolt it was made to fit well or not.

in regard to wrenches I personally have decided I will not use wrenches that are not made from Vanadium Steel. I been able able to find them everywhere from $5 at Auto Parts stores to the nearly $20 craftsman version, I don't buy snap on tools. you are paying for a service I simply do not need.

One not so well know thing about a wrench to be able to preform well is that it must be harder than the nut it is trying to loosen. this makes since if you think that the nut needs to strip first. but that is not the reason. the wrench needs to be able to actually bite into the nut or bolt. you may not be able to see these bite marks, and maybe the wrench did not even need that much edge to get the job done. This is why a cheap wrench will work just fine on nuts and bolts on the refrigerator but completely fail when it comes to nuts and bolts on the car.

My personal experience with the performance of low quality and high quality wrenches is a tool that cannot preform the job at all (loosen a nut) and one that does it almost with ease. that is a huge difference.

If your tool needs are along the line of assembling children's toys on Christmas eve. tightening nuts and bolt on the back door or around the kitchen. I would say you will do just fine with a lower quality set of wrenches. If you expect to come across even one stubborn tight rusted bolt. I hope you went with the higher quality set, because the cheap stuff will very likely get you nowhere.
 
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Over the course of my lifetime I have also found you get what you pay for and always buy quality tools regardless of price. A trained eye can see the big difference between poorly made and designed tools and good quality ones. However price is not always the clue! many retailers price poorly made tools at ridiculous prices, while others price good tools so resonable they are mistaken by the untrained "eye" for junk..It is all in the "eye" the experienced craftsman develops over time from using the tools over and over. And yes a cheap set of turning tools from harbor freight work great...But in the long run you will spend a lot of extra time sharpening them and reattaching the handles as apposed to a better set.And to me time is money. Everything is relative... I have hand tools that my grandfather gave me 40+ years ago and they look new today just as they did when he received them from his dad. Yet at work we have a guy that kills the best tools you can buy almost on a daily basis :eek: Its not the tools that make the craftsman great but they sure do help :biggrin:


just my 2 cents,

Dan

Burlieve it or Knot
 
Some times we get lost in "more money = better quality"

Sometimes I think some of us Americans (me, anyway) get lost in the "It costs more so it has to be better arguement".

Sometimes things that cost more are a better value because they do the job faster, last longer, are made by better craftsmen, use superior materials and/or give us a sense of pride that we only "own the best"

Sometimes, I have found that a higher price just means that is the price that the market will bear. Or the case of many imports, the price difference is simply a matter of "import/export tax" and/or shipping costs.

I could not wait to get "good enough" to justify a set of Sorby chisels. My work got better and my stuff started selling well - so I made the plunge on the Sorby.

When my Sorbys arrived my work immediately turned to CRAP. Was this because the Sorbys were junk tools? The answer is NO (even though I accused the tools for a long while).

I bought a set of carbide-tipped Benjamin's Best chisels and my work immediately returned to even better than before the Sorby purchase. The problem with the Sorbys were they didn't fit my gorilla sized hands and even with high-dollar sharpening tools, I could NOT reproduce an edge that was comfortable or even usable usable for my skills.

I immediately made a very nice shadow box and proudly display my Sorby's on the shop wall, next to my glass encased $500 sharpening system. I DO OWN THE BEST, AND I AM PROUD TO SHOW THEM OFF. BUT,The reason that carbide-tipped tools are on 3 month back order at PSI is because I use them until they dull, then buy new ones. These tools allow me to prefect my craft RATHER that perfect the way I have to modify my tool handling abilities.

Does this make me less of a craftsman because I perfer the cheaper tools that work better for my application? I sure hope not!
 
Some times we get lost in "more money = better quality"

Sometimes I think some of us Americans (me, anyway) get lost in the "It costs more so it has to be better arguement".

Sometimes things that cost more are a better value because they do the job faster, last longer, are made by better craftsmen, use superior materials and/or give us a sense of pride that we only "own the best"

Sometimes, I have found that a higher price just means that is the price the market will bear. Or the case of many imports, the price difference is simply a matter of "import/export tax" and/or shipping costs.

I could not wait to get "good enough" to justify a set of Sorby chisels. My work got better and my stuff started selling well - so I made the plunge on the Sorby.

When my Sorbys arrived my work immediately turned to CRAP. Was this because the Sorbys were junk tools? The answer is NO (even though I accused the tools for a long while).

I bought a set of carbide-tipped Benjamin's Best chisels and my work immediately returned to even better than before the Sorby purchase. The problem with the Sorbys were they didn't fit my gorilla sized hands and even with high-dollar sharpening tools, I could NOT reproduce an edge that was comfortable or even usable usable for my skills.

I immediately made a very nice shadow box and proudly display my Sorby's on the shop wall, next to my glass encased $500 sharpening system. I DO OWN THE BEST, AND I AM PROUD TO SHOW THEM OFF. BUT,The reason that carbide-tipped tools are on 3 month back order at PSI is because I use them until they dull, then buy new ones. These tools allow me to prefect my craft RATHER that perfect the way I have to modify my tool handling abilities.

Does this make me less of a craftsman because I perfer the cheaper tools that work better for my application? I sure hope not!
 
I like to buy a good quality tool once. I have a son now but even before I was a dad I wanted to buy tools that could/would/should last a lifetime and now more so. I want to be able to hand them down to my son. Show him how to use them and how well a good quality tool will last. I have in the past had to run out and buy a tool(s) in the past to finish up a project. If I have skimped out and bought the cheapies many have broke or failed.
I bought a cheap set of wrenches long ago and I have used them a couple time mainly because they dont fit. The 3/8" open end is 1/32 to small to fit any 3/8" nut. From that point I have really tried to save up the extra money and get the better quality tools.
Quality does not have to equal expensive. I am always looking for deals on used hand tools for this reason. For many hand tools the saying "They don't make them like they used to." really hits home when you get to use a nice well kept old time tool and the you go out and see even the expensive one are made of plastic.

When it comes to power tools the price jumps fast. I bought a cheap $99 ryobi table saw when I was starting to get back into flat work 5 years or so ago. WOW I HATE THAT SAW. I dont even want to look at it nevermind use it. I dont have the money to buy a $5000 tablesaw I would like but I will for sure look for a decent one in the $1500 range when I move. Many of the tools we can get now are all made in the same place but have a different color and name tag on them.

Quality or cheap use them for anything other then what they are ment for and they can all be damaged.
A cordless drill is not a hammer. A screwdriver or wrench are not a prybar. A deadblow mallet is not for roofing.
 
Daniel said:
Consider that this group as a whole will recommend the PH Pen Blank Vise over all others regardless of it being the most expensive option as well as having an extremely long waiting list to consider. I offer this as an example that this group will recognize the difference that quality makes and once they do recognize the difference that quality provides will in fact promote it.
In large part this thread does indicate that this recognition of quality and the benefits of it are the exception rather than the rule. I also realize that all things change.
Click to expand...

I again personally consider this a bandwagon thing myself.

One person swore that it's the best since sliced bread, and others followed suit and just had to have one.

I've never seen one in person, and I know others that have never seen one in person, and they make amazing pens that any one of us would be envious to own. I was on the list, but that was a bandwagon thing on my part. I do all my drilling with a collet chuck and I think it's superior to any kind of vice.

Again I will state my opinion that skill will always beat the tool, regardless of tool cost or quality. Anyone who has ever tried to keep a not for profit up and running, or volunteered in a 3rd world country knows this is a universal truth.
 
1/10000 of an inch tolerances are mentioned, but keep in mind that there's a flip side to this coin. What about the bolt head itself? If you think 1/10000th of an inch matters over 1/1000 of an inch.... I'd think your wrong- except for the most demanding of uses/ situations.
 
Daniel, you echoed alot of the thoughts I posted and I agree with them. The one thing I do not agree with is your analogy of finding cheap tools in a flea market. There have been many of a great find in flee markets and garage sales just because people do not really know what they have when selling. So don't sell those venues short.

I still believe buying the best you can afford is the safest way to go. Use the power of communicating by way of word of mouth or forums such as this and see waht others are saying about a particular tool. Yes it is true to an extent that a skilled craftsman can use just about any tool but he can do a better and quicker and alot of times safer job with a well built piece of quality equipment by far. Safety becomes a factor too when buying quality tools especially machinery. Power tools may cost more because of more safety equipment added and the Sawstop tablesaw is a prime example. Is it any better than Delta's or Powermatic cabinet saws, by no means is it. But it has a safety feature only that company has and can mean a world of difference to some. Same thing can be said about some routers and the list can go on and on so safety is another factor needed to look at when buying tools.

By the way the guy who kept loosing tools in the drink have you heard about this invention called a string. :biggrin: I use to work on barges and along piers and the first thing we do is tie a string around our tools that we are using. Oh by the way need to tie the other end of to your belt.:biggrin:
 
I have a hypothetical ? for you guys (gals). What is the difference in a big box store lawn mow and one of thoes sold at a mower shop for $6.000 to $10.000 dollars is there any differnce cause big box stores now have them zero turn mowers too. Also is there any differnce in the weedeaters cause there is a big differnce in price.
How about a wood ? Are there any differnces in their chain saws ? Their prices show that there are.
 
I don't think there's a "one size fits all" answer to the question. Most of you know I'm no woodworker. I just make pretty wood pens. Five years ago, when I knew nothing about turning, I bought a Jet 1014VS. I figured a good lathe (not NEARLY the best) would work for me. I also bout a RYOBI benchtop bandsaw and a RYOBI benchtop drill press. I still use each of these tools for every pen I make. I also still turn on a mandrel. When I make an inferior quality pen, I think it's more likely to be the Indian and not the arrows. (And yes, I am a native American...Cherokee.)
 
Mac said:
I have a hypothetical ? for you guys (gals). What is the difference in a big box store lawn mow and one of thoes sold at a mower shop for $6.000 to $10.000 dollars is there any differnce cause big box stores now have them zero turn mowers too. Also is there any differnce in the weedeaters cause there is a big differnce in price.
How about a wood ? Are there any differnces in their chain saws ? Their prices show that there are.
Click to expand...


Mac

Not sure if you are being facetious or not so I will hold the comments. But will say this. Are you comparing apples to apples or is there differences. You are also talking big box against a mom and pop store. Big box orders in quantity and mom and pop adds the personal touch. When that lawn mower doesn't work where in the big box store is the mechanic to fix it?? Alot of times big box store have items made especially for them and are not the same as other places so that is a loaded question. Too many variables there.
 
jttheclockman said:
Mac

Not sure if you are being facetious or not so I will hold the comments. But will say this. Are you comparing apples to apples or is there differences. You are also talking big box against a mom and pop store. Big box orders in quantity and mom and pop adds the personal touch. When that lawn mower doesn't work where in the big box store is the mechanic to fix it?? Alot of times big box store have items made especially for them and are not the same as other places so that is a loaded question. Too many variables there.
Click to expand...

NO , It is a serious? It is no worse of a ? than comparing .99 bits to a$10 bit.
 
This is a very interesting discussion. From reading the posts it appears that some common threads appear. Experience and knowledge will guide you in buying the right tools for you.

My take is very simple - I very rarely will buy the cheapest tool available and I will very rarely buy the most expensive tool availalble. I am usually looking for something in the middle.

I have come to this conclusion from experience. I have bought cheap tools and have almost always been very disapointed in the performance. Started out with a cheap bench tablesaw. Fought the fence that would never stay parrellel to the blade for years. Did it do the job yes but did I have to spend a lot of time on set up and tuning yes. When I replaced it I looked at the unisaw, powermatic, etc. These are what I consider upper tier saws. They are great and I have used them. But for a hobby could not justify the expense. I ended up purchasing a Jet contractor saw with a great fence (52") and built in router lift. I set this saw up when I bought it a number of years ago and have had to do no adjustments since.

Well that's my 2 cents
 
I bet someplace there are people discussing the utility and purpose of fine writing instruments vs. bics....... Except I never had to get $300 worth of stitches from a papermate failure.
 
The focus of my tool buying varies according to the need and job. LOML says I usually go for higher price but nothing could be farther from the truth. I want something that lets me get the job done without having to fight it. A cheap tool that breaks in the middle of a job and requires hours to get fixed is more costly than paying more in the beginning for the right tool.

I have had cheap wrenches that break on stuck bolts, and I knew it was going to happen before it did; Believe me that I certainly wouldn't do it to prove a point when I knew that broken tool meant a delay. This doesn't happen with a quality wrench. Cheap doesn't cut it on bulldozers and tractors where ones lively hood is on the line. "Cheap" lets you "get by" on occasion.

I have a Fein that was mentioned earlier in this thread. In 2000, I needed to tear out a tile/concrete bathroom, change wall outlets, retile a kitchen. I was given a decree - keep dust down! For several parts of the process, I purchased the Fein in a set for $200, as opposed to a $40.00 Rotozip. It was worth every bit of the money spent in decreased dust, that would have sent two people to the doctor with severe allergies, in addition to having dust throughout the house.

Who on here would say that $40 for a tool is better than spending $200 when the alternative is doctors and dust for months? And I still have the tool! :biggrin: LOML and my mom thanked me! WELL worth the extra $160. That was before the current set of copies.

100 years ago:
There are some things that require precision that cheap tools just don't provide. AS to the suggestion that people 150 years ago didn't have the tools of today - that is pure wrong. They did not have todays electronic and precision tools for sure. But don't give the impression that they were not quality tools. Todays potmetal quality hand tools are no match for the simple hand tools of a century ago. I don't know what tools that Eagle had, and I am sure that most were old, but that didn't mean that they were potmetal or "bend with the hand" tools. I have some of my dad's, my uncles and and a few of my grandfathers (born in 1888) hand tools. They were cheap "general store / company store" (if anyone remembers those days or terms) tools back then, but they are quality as compared to the average hand tool in HD or Lowes.

I know that these cheap cheap tools "can" make fantastic work in the hands of a master if time allowance is provided and patience is permitted.
 
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The main thing I look for in tools is comfort and ease of use. Buy the cheapest screwdriver you can and a more expensive one with a large ergonomic handle and screw in a 2" woodscrew with each and see which one is nicer to use. As a person who makes his living with tools if a tool isn't going to make my job faster and easier I don't buy it.
As for box stores vs. mom & pop, box stores buy in much larger quantities thus they can sell the same product at a lower price.
When it comes to blades and bits you just have to try different kinds to see what works for you I have tried 2 different types of router bits one is 30% more expensive and I can't find any difference between them. Saw blades, I use ridgid blades I've used cheaper and more expensive ones and they seem to be the best to me.
 
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