The musings of an old curmudgeon.

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Russ Hewitt

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Joined
Nov 27, 2009
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105
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Pasadena, Maryland., USA
I have been woodturning and pen turning off and on for 20 years. I consider myself to be a solid intermediate turner for your consideration, or my following observations.


  • After your first 25 practice pens, no one should turn a slim line, or other low dollar kit. They are of poor quality and give all pen turners a bad name.
  • What is with all of the bulbous looking beginners pens? They look like they have type of malignant growth. Have you ever seen a professional pen maker make this garbage. Beginners put photographs of them online and everyone raves about them. We should tell them that they look hideous so they stop making them. Pen barrels should be flat or maybe have a slight contour.
  • Kitless and Bespoke pens. I spent a ton of money to be able to make these. I also spent countless hours perfecting the skills to make a really nice kitless pen. That said, they aren't as practical or nice looking as most of the better kits available. Now I make them just for bragging rights.
  • Kits. Why spent you time to make a pen out of a junk kit. You end up with a junk pen. You don't have to spend $40 or $50 on a kit, but if it's under $10, chances are it not worth making.
  • Blanks. Why make a pen with a Blah blank. I have dozens of blanks sitting in a reject box because, after they arrived, they didn't measure up to the sales ad. The same can be said for wood blanks. If a wood blank doesn't pop with figure and color, it too goes in a reject box. You can't start with inferior components and end up with a top shelf pen. Time is everything!!
 
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Hartwell85

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May 14, 2021
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Findlay, OH
I've thought the same thing about bulbous pens. Slimline pens are great to start out with to develop your skills. I've moved on to the better and stylish kits. Same thoughts on blanks that don't measure up. Been there.
 

mark james

IAP Collection, Curator
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Sep 6, 2012
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Medina, Ohio
I agree with everything except the slimline thoughts. I have made many modified slims and they are going strong after 5-10 years of use. Yes, the mechanism may fail, but that is also true for others. These have been in weekly use in our house for years.
 

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wimkluck

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May 24, 2010
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Gaanderen Netherlands
I am not a native english speaker. The title was a guess. I was thinking of 2older men from the muppet show. Then I ran the title through the translation app. The guess was in the direction.
I agree with you on all points. With one exception. The slimline pen is also available in a better quality. It's not that easy to make a perfectly straight pen.
 

Roly

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Dec 24, 2017
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Batlow, Australia
I've been turning pens for a while now and still enjoy turning slimlines, be they original or modified. I steer away from bulbous pens but really enjoy the other styles, good practice for tool control
 

jalbert

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May 17, 2015
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Location
Louisville, KY
  • Kitless and Bespoke pens. I spent a ton of money to be able to make these. I also spent countless hours perfecting the skills to make a really nice kitless pen. That said, they aren't as practical or nice looking as most of the better kits available. Now I make them just for bragging rights.
your post history indicates you have been attempting kitless pens since June. Sounds like you need to spend more than 6 months on them if they're turning out worse than kit pens
 

Valleyboy

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Jul 2, 2019
Messages
341
Location
Wales
I must say I often wondered why some pens were made with the bulbous form that you described as they don't appeal to me. I did ask a chap and he explained that he makes them for elderly people and/or people with difficulties such as arthritis which makes gripping small items tricky. They find the fatter pens much easier to hold and they are very popular with a generation who still enjoy writing. So I always looked at those pens differently after that.

Cheers
Ash
 

Mike

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Joined
Oct 23, 2022
Messages
302
Location
Albuquerque
I have turned only about 60 pens now and I agree with your statements. I always wondered why the bulges?? I don't like them either. Looks like a snake that just ate.
My first pen was a Berea Churchill cigar pen with stabilized spalted maple blank, about 11 or 12 years ago. I worked on it late into the night, had chips and blowout and kind of a mess. I found the chips and put them back using CA. Then decided to add a turquoise ring. Tried the BLO/CA finish and it was shiny, but not smooth. Then turned a 2 or 3 slimlines, and they just look cheap. I recently bought a pen press and first thing I did was take the Churchill apart and mount it back on the lathe. It had a small crack I filled with CA. I sanded the finish down smooth and refinished it. It is now very nice.

I started turning pens again a few months ago and have done a few cheaper pens, 3 of them last night. 1 of them had the plating too thick and would not go in the cap and the hole in the nib was too small for the Parker cartridge. I still have 4 more, but will not be buying more cheap kits.
 

jttheclockman

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Feb 22, 2005
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NJ, USA.
Boy I have taken some heat over the years when I brought some of these topics up both here and on FB. I agree with all of them but have little experience with slimlines. I never started with them and do not make them The kitless thing is one of those topics that will bring heat because of the craftsmanship level of your talents. The same could be said about blank making and shaping of pens. Things that can be controlled like use of better quality kits is one, choosing kits and blanks that are more eye appealing, and the making of slimline pens but as shown that too can be overcome. The bulbous thing I have heard the excuse about older folks want bigger pens , maybe true but I believe many times that is a product of newbies learning the ins and out of pen turning and maybe being around a lathe for the first time. But anyway this is a hobby that can be very rewarding and depending how far you want to take it it can become lucrative too. Happy Turning.
 

Russ Hewitt

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Nov 27, 2009
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Pasadena, Maryland., USA
your post history indicates you have been attempting kitless pens since June. Sounds like you need to spend more than 6 months on them if they're turning out worse than kit pens
Actually, I am perfectly happy with the bespoke pens that I have made. They are comparable to those that are posted for sale. I just think that kitless pens as a group are less practical than a conventional well made kit.
 

jalbert

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May 17, 2015
Messages
991
Location
Louisville, KY
H
Actually, I am perfectly happy with the bespoke pens that I have made. They are comparable to those that are posted for sale. I just think that kitless pens as a group are less practical than a conventional well made kit.
How do you figure? Kits are by and large acknowledged as ergonomically inferior by the people who actually use pens a significant amount. Go on any pen collector/user group on Facebook, Reddit, etc and ask about the functionality and practicality of kits vs well executed kitless if you want a perspective beyond that of a maker.
 
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Kenny Durrant

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Sachse Tx. 75048
We'll I do understand your points although I don't totally agree with them. You could use the exact same logic that if your bespoke pens don't look that nice maybe your skills are like you assume the bubble turners skills are. I agree that it's just as easy to turn a pretty blank as an ugly one. Maybe the ugly one has sentimental value or that's all someone on a strict budget has to turn. I still turn slimlines because they're cheap in price. Same reason I started with them. I give several away so I'm able to do so and not have to go to the poor house. My first thought after reading this was is it supposed to be a motivational speech for new turners. Please don't take my reply the wrong way as I didn't take offense to your post. Just voicing my opinion like you did. Thanks
 

leehljp

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Tunica, Mississippi,
Kitless and Bespoke pens. I spent a ton of money to be able to make these. I also spent countless hours perfecting the skills to make a really nice kitless pen. That said, they aren't as practical or nice looking as most of the better kits available. Now I make them just for bragging rights
Russ, there is a faulty assumption here by using the word "pen" after Kitless and Bespoke. If you were to say "ballpoint / rollerball twist/click pens - there still could be some truth the way some are made. However, capped rollerball pens and especially fountain pens lend themselves to far more expensive sales and great appeal and eye candy if made by skilled hands. Kitless doesn't effectively describe them - as well as "custom" made by a true artist in the business such as Jalbert and some others here.

Lets just say that these custom made Kitless pens, particularly fountain pens draw $1000 - $2000 - $5000 in the right markets as opposed to (I'm guessing) $500 for an excellently made kit pen.
 

PenPal

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Nov 29, 2006
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Canberra, A.C.T., Australia.
Interesting conversations,I have been pen making for over 40 years now and at age 88 I still love slimlines with a streamline centre band I enclose a recent Slimline for your criticism. I have given possibly thousands of my Slims etc to reward kindness etc ,never had one word of your thoughts as the first person Russel expressing your thoughts . Same goes for tyres,motor vehicles in fact religeon and politics, race etc etc. I crave colour and grain. I gave this pen recently,the timber from Israel to a close friend who treasures it dearly.In fact two different pens provenance is very important to me.
 

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DavidD

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Joined
Oct 4, 2017
Messages
299
Location
Boulder, Colorado
I have been woodturning and pen turning off and on for 20 years. I consider myself to be a solid intermediate turner for your consideration, or my following observations.


  • After your first 25 practice pens, no one should turn a slim line, or other low dollar kit. They are of poor quality and give all pen turners a bad name.
  • What is with all of the bulbous looking beginners pens? They look like they have type of malignant growth. Have you ever seen a professional pen maker make this garbage. Beginners put photographs of them online and everyone raves about them. We should tell them that they look hideous so they stop making them. Pen barrels should be flat or maybe have a slight contour.
  • Kitless and Bespoke pens. I spent a ton of money to be able to make these. I also spent countless hours perfecting the skills to make a really nice kitless pen. That said, they aren't as practical or nice looking as most of the better kits available. Now I make them just for bragging rights.
  • Kits. Why spent you time to make a pen out of a junk kit. You end up with a junk pen. You don't have to spend $40 or $50 on a kit, but if it's under $10, chances are it not worth making.
  • Blanks. Why make a pen with a Blah blank. I have dozens of blanks sitting in a reject box because, after they arrived, they didn't measure up to the sales ad. The same can be said for wood blanks. If a wood blank doesn't pop with figure and color, it too goes in a reject box. You can't start with inferior components and end up with a top shelf pen. Time is everything!!
Love all of this, including the post title
 

Edgar

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Personally, I like slimlines & I enjoy making them. I also use "blah" blanks quite often, just for the plain simplicity of natural wood with subtle grain patterns & colors. I give most of them away as "thank you" gestures & they are always well received.

I'm more than happy to accept all the "reject" blanks anyone would like to send me.
 

Darios

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Oct 27, 2022
Messages
391
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US
  • no one should turn a slim line...
    ...What is with all of the bulbous looking beginners pens?

Surprisingly I found room for both of these. Different people have different grip or visual preferences. Had one lady gush over one pen because of the curves I'd put in it saying she loved it because it didn't look, er, Freudian. Admittedly the curves weren't as strong as the .. tumorous... bulges I think you are referring to.
 

Brandy

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Sep 3, 2019
Messages
340
Location
Aurora, CO
I also like slimline pens. They are easy to carry with me at work and I like to use them if I'm testing a new idea. I can't afford to buy a lot of kits that are over $10 and so to imply that I make crap pens and am giving pen turners a bad name because of my financial constraints is rather rude.

All wood is beautiful and even the most "blah" blank can become an extraordinary pen. I'm usually pleasantly surprised when I use a blank that looks boring.

I personally don't like the bulges some people turn but I also don't think the barrel should be straight. However, that's a personal opinion and what other people do is none of my business. We should never tell someone their pen is "garbage or "look hideous". For a lot of us making pens is a source of enjoyment and we take pride in what we create.

So if someone is proud of a pen they made with a slimline kit and a blah blank that has some bulges in the barrel then let them alone. You never know if that pen is a gift for a friend, is helping them face the loss of a loved one, or gave them a reason to get out of bed that morning. You have no idea how hard it was to post a picture of that pen and how devastating it would be for someone to say it looks hideous.
 

JimTaylor

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Sep 18, 2022
Messages
2
Location
Branxton, Northumberland, UK
I agree that bulbous pens don't float my boat, but that's not to say someone else who does is wrong.
I've made some standard and modified slimline pens from a friends' firewood pile and produced great pens (especially in Yew).
A well-made slimline pen only cost a few pounds (Ā£) in parts and sell well in craft markets and a handmade gift is more appreciated by friends and family.
Not everyone can afford to buy some of the more expensive kits and their target market would not support pens sell in the Ā£1000s.
Cheap does not necessarily mean crap and expensive does not ensure excellence.
It would be a shame if everyone produced identical items.
I would love an Aston Martin but drive a Volvo.
 

RunnerVince

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Dec 18, 2019
Messages
276
Location
Ogden, UT
I have to say that this was written in true curmudgeonly fashion: without any regard to others' preferences or circumstances. People talk about how entitled the young generation is, but man do they have a great role model here. I try very hard not to be offended. I think being offended is a choice that reflects more on me than on you. I usually don't have to work that hard on it on this amazing forum, but I'm close with this one. So in defense of beginners, those with limited resources, those with different preferences, those who do very well (thank you very much) bucking the trends, those who make pens for themselves and nobody else, and a number of kit manufacturers, I to have post some rebuttals.

After your first 25 practice pens, no one should turn a slim line, or other low dollar kit. They are of poor quality and give all pen turners a bad name.
There are very decent-quality slimline kits with much better and more durable platings. But beyond that, much of the quality (disregarding long-term durability) of a slimline is more dependent on the skill of the turner than the quality of the kit. Yes, you will see a lot of poor-to-middling quality slimline pens because those kits are the most accessible to those with the least experience, and those folks aren't going to make the best pens. And yes there are plenty of slimline kits that won't have great fitment no matter how skilled a turner you are. But there are great slimline kits, and you can turn an amazing slimline pen. It may not be the most original in design, but it can still be high quality. And to finish off on this point, if you want to sell your pens, you better turn what your customer wants, and there are plenty of people who want a very thin pen. Case in point, one customer commissioned a pen from me. He saw a cigar pen I'd done, and asked if I could make one of those for him. He loved the look and quality, but ended up no liking the feel of the thicker pen--he'd been buying and using Zebra F-301 click pens for literally decades. He commissioned a second pen in a slimline, which he also paid full price for, loved, and continues to use.

What is with all of the bulbous looking beginners pens? They look like they have type of malignant growth. Have you ever seen a professional pen maker make this garbage. Beginners put photographs of them online and everyone raves about them. We should tell them that they look hideous so they stop making them. Pen barrels should be flat or maybe have a slight contour.
From a beginner's perspective, it can be really hard when you realize that you spent $15 on a nice blank, and you're literally going to turn 95% of that blank into sawdust and shavings. It's a very common view for a beginner to want to maximize the amount of the blank that they're using, and it's a legitimate skill to learn to be OK with the "waste." New bowl turners often have similar issues wanting to get the most out of their blanks, so they make what some people call "dog bowls." So the thing that's "with" all of the bulbous looking beginners' pens is that they are beginners' pens. They need to learn (often on their own) what looks good and what doesn't, so give them a break. They don't need you telling them what to do--they'll figure it out on their own. In the meantime, if they happen to sell a few bulbous pens and their customers are happy, more power to them.
There are many other reasons to make a "bulbous" pen. Almost all of them have to do with what your customer wants. Some people want something they can hold onto better--for personal preference or to compensate for a lack of grip, shaky hand, arthritis, etc. Some people like the look of a more bulbous pen. And while I do agree that if that's your preference, a kit that better suits that type of design is the ideal approach, it's not the approach available to every turner. Are you saying those who can't afford more expensive kits should just not turn? I also don't personally think it's the best look for a pen, and certainly not for a slimline. But if you've got the market for it, then I'm not going to bust your chops. And if you're only making pens for your own enjoyment, do what you want, and anyone who disagrees with you can go kick rocks.

Kitless and Bespoke pens. I spent a ton of money to be able to make these. I also spent countless hours perfecting the skills to make a really nice kitless pen. That said, they aren't as practical or nice looking as most of the better kits available. Now I make them just for bragging rights.
So you make something you're not happy with so that you can brag about it? You do you, man. But I think it's pretty shady to crap on a bunch of amazing craftspeople/artists who do fantastic work because you don't like the look of them. Some of these folks are able to sell their pens for thousands of dollars, so maybe your idea of what looks nice could use an update.
There's a particular penmaker on Instagram who makes pens that, to me, look like feminine products and...ahem...personal massagers. But he does very well from what I can tell, and his customers either don't make that same connection or don't care. Not my cup of tea, but no one is making me buy his pens. Plenty of other folks, however, spend their own hard-earned money on his kitless pens rather than someone else's kit pens, so, to corrupt an old saying, you can put that in your pen and write with it.

Kits. Why spent you time to make a pen out of a junk kit. You end up with a junk pen. You don't have to spend $40 or $50 on a kit, but if it's under $10, chances are it not worth making.
Blanks. Why make a pen with a Blah blank. I have dozens of blanks sitting in a reject box because, after they arrived, they didn't measure up to the sales ad. The same can be said for wood blanks. If a wood blank doesn't pop with figure and color, it too goes in a reject box. You can't start with inferior components and end up with a top shelf pen. Time is everything!!
Some people make do with what they can afford, and if you can only afford a few $2 slimlines made with domestic woods, then you do your best with that. The issue here though is that you're mixing your commercial and artistic viewpoints. Additionally though, you're really prescribing to everyone (makers and customers alike) what looks good. Certainly you're views (people generally like figure, color, chatoyancy, anything they consider exotic, etc.) aren't terribly off-base. But environmentally and socially conscientious customers are looking for other things too. They don't want something made from an endangered wood species, or a kit that was (potentially) made with child labor, or raw materials that have traversed the entire globe, or dyes or finishes that harm the environment. And there are other niches of customers that want a more natural-looking finish, or that like a specific wood, or that want something (I'm thinking whiskey barrel and stadium seat blanks) more for its history than it's looks. It all comes down to what your customer wants. If you want to maximize your potential sales or your artistic accolades, then yes: dark, highly figured woods, glass-like finish, super-premium kits (or better yet, one-off kitless designs).
Indeed, you can't start with a straight grained-piece of pine and have a final product that looks like an exotic burl. But again, don't crap on those who either prefer something different or don't have the luxury of being so picky about their kits and blanks.

That's a little more than 2 cents, but I felt it was important to provide a little different perspective here.
 

penicillin

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Feb 27, 2019
Messages
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I do not have Russ' 20 years of experience, but I respectfully disagree with every one of the bulleted statements in the original post. The exception is the statement about Kitless and Bespoke pens, where I have no experience.

It seems pointless to explain why I disagree with those statements, especially when doing so makes me someone who gives "all pen turners a bad name" and who makes "garbage", as described in the original post above.

It also applies to the many penturners who make Slimline type pens for our brave soldiers and veterans. The members of our local club make and donate several thousand Slimline pens each year. The many requests and thank you letters speak volumes about how that "garbage" is perceived.

Russ has a right to his own standards and values, and I respect them. I get "curmudgeon." At the same time, please take note that not everyone shares those same standards and values, yet their work is equally worthy. Finally, it is not right to say that anyone gives the others "a bad name" or call their work "garbage."
 

MRDucks2

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Jul 17, 2017
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Bristow, IN
You all shouldn't let Russ get you worked up. He came on board in 2009, talked of his experience while calling himself a newbie then disappeared for 6 years after a few posts.

He showed back up 6 years later in 2015, talked of his experience, called himself a newbie and hung around for nearly 3 months.

He comes back 7 years later, talked of his experience. Makes his first kitless before belittling them while talking about all of his kitless experience 5 months later.

He has nearly doubled his time on the site each series, so he is about done this round. Based on his previous pattern he should be back in about 8 years, around 2030.

Enjoy his presence and let him ride off into the sunset. šŸ¤ 
 

rherrell

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Aug 22, 2006
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Pilot Mountain, NC
I make kitless pens for the CHALLENGE! I LOVE to be challenged, I do it on purpose to get BETTER at my craft.

Many years ago I "challenged" myself to make every part of the pen except the refill, I even made the spring from an old guitar string.
My efforts got me accepted into the Pen Makers Guild, here is my "from scratch" pen...

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Roly

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Dec 24, 2017
Messages
108
Location
Batlow, Australia
You all shouldn't let Russ get you worked up. He came on board in 2009, talked of his experience while calling himself a newbie then disappeared for 6 years after a few posts.

He showed back up 6 years later in 2015, talked of his experience, called himself a newbie and hung around for nearly 3 months.

He comes back 7 years later, talked of his experience. Makes his first kitless before belittling them while talking about all of his kitless experience 5 months later.

He has nearly doubled his time on the site each series, so he is about done this round. Based on his previous pattern he should be back in about 8 years, around 2030.

Enjoy his presence and let him ride off into the sunset. šŸ¤ 
Very well said, I applaud you
 

Russ Hewitt

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Joined
Nov 27, 2009
Messages
105
Location
Pasadena, Maryland., USA
Most of you missed the point. I wrote this in the style of the late, great, Andy Rooney. I hoped to make you think, and maybe laugh a bit. For God's sake, make slimline pens if you want. I don't care what you use for blanks or how much you spend on tools, blanks or kits. These are simply the musings of an old man. These are just the things that make me scratch my head and silently think, "what the bloody hell are they thinking." I'm not right, they are not wrong. Just musings....

I like to think of myself as being somewhat modest. I originally described myself as being a newbie, when I actually had 10 years of turning time. I now describe myself as an intermediate, although I now have 20 + years with a lathe. For the past several years, I have been making some of my own cast blanks with a pressure pot and stabilizing my own wood blanks with a vacuum pot. I still consider myself a relative beginner in these fields. I would not be so presumptuous as to claim I am better than anyone else on the board. I do think I have put the time and sweat into becoming a talented turner and that I make top notched products. There are others that make far superior bespoke pens, but they generally have a great deal of metal work. I did buy a Chinese made metal lathe in order to try my hand at improving the quality of my kitless pens, but it was a $1500 piece of garbage, not worth it's weight in scrap. I'm not prepared to spend $$$$$$ for a good quality metal lathe. That will have to wait. Until then, my kitless creations will have to be all resin.

As far as my presence on the board, I get bored with the repetitious discussions, and stay away for a while. I do read some of the postings, but seldom get drawn into posting.
 

Russ Hewitt

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Nov 27, 2009
Messages
105
Location
Pasadena, Maryland., USA
I make kitless pens for the CHALLENGE! I LOVE to be challenged, I do it on purpose to get BETTER at my craft.

Many years ago I "challenged" myself to make every part of the pen except the refill, I even made the spring from an old guitar string.
My efforts got me accepted into the Pen Makers Guild, here is my "from scratch" pen...

View attachment 343905View attachment 343906View attachment 343907View attachment 343908View attachment 343909View attachment 343910
Looks good. You did give me a few ideas to improve my stuff.
 

leehljp

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Tunica, Mississippi,
Thank you for clarifying you "musings," Russ. It does help to know your intent. Maybe if you had given a note at the beginning of the intent - of poking fun, it could have been received differently. Also, Please bear in mind that Andy Rooney was on TV just about every week and people knew his background well and his humorous tongue in cheek critiques, and everyone loved looking forward to his next musings.. However, For anyone to suddenly post a "musings"on a site that they have not contributed much before, or are not well known as Andy, and immediately assume that everyone knows their musing intent - that is a surefire way to miscommunicate.

Thank you for clarifying the intent.
 
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