Still getting out-of-round with PSI Turn-Between-Centers Mandrel - Need some help

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Bats

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Oct 12, 2020
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I too wonder how some sell pens for cost.
Maybe they just want to break even.
Some of them can't even be breaking even. I look at Etsy and see people selling large numbers of slimlines with acrylic blanks and free shipping for $10. Even figuring $1.50/ea for cheap kits in bulk, at least $3.50 for blanks, and maybe $4.50 for shipping, that's only $.50 to cover packaging - never mind CA, shop towels, tool wear & tear, etc. It's frustrating, because I've been trying to figure out pricing for a hypothetical Etsy shop of my own, and those guys are clearly dragging down everyone else's prices.

But I also wonder who is buying them.
Lots of people, apparently. I guess there's always a market for adequate quality with a cheap price tag.

Etsy (or selling online in general) also makes it harder for buyers to know what sort of fit & finish they're getting - or easier to gloss over the fact that it's less than ideal (especially with the "I'm going to show ten pens in each photo" sellers) - and the ones who're buying the cheapo pens may not even know what to look for. Or simply don't care.
 
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Mortalis

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Aug 19, 2013
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This is an interesting thought. I use epoxy to glue my tubes, rather than CA glue (story there, I tend to have near-deadly reactions to CA fumes, in particular, and dust...so I try to avoid CA in general whenever possible), and I usually get a little bit on the inside of the tube. I do try to clean it out before I turn the blanks, but maybe i'm not doing a good enough job.

I'm curious now, how do most of you clean the inside of your tubes? I switched to using a sanding disc to true up the ends of my blanks and trim them down to the tubes, so I'm not using one of those pen trimming drill bits. It never really seemed like those cleaned up the inside of the tubes much anyway, although they would chip off any big glue chunks.
I use a rat tail file and/or a strip of sandpaper wound around a dowel like a barber pole. I also use epoxy but some still ends up getting in the tube. Take it easy on the ID as your kit need to press fit into it not slip fit. ;)
 

MJK

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Dec 27, 2016
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Appleton, wI
Some of them can't even be breaking even. I look at Etsy and see people selling large numbers of slimlines with acrylic blanks and free shipping for $10. Even figuring $1.50/ea for cheap kits in bulk, at least $3.50 for blanks, and maybe $4.50 for shipping, that's only $.50 to cover packaging - never mind CA, shop towels, tool wear & tear, etc. It's frustrating, because I've been trying to figure out pricing for a hypothetical Etsy shop of my own, and those guys are clearly dragging down everyone else's prices.


Lots of people, apparently. I guess there's always a market for adequate quality with a cheap price tag.

Etsy (or selling online in general) also makes it harder for buyers to know what sort of fit & finish they're getting - or easier to gloss over the fact that it's less than ideal (especially with the "I'm going to show ten pens in each photo" sellers) - and the ones who're buying the cheapo pens may not even know what to look for. Or simply don't care.

Some of them can't even be breaking even. I look at Etsy and see people selling large numbers of slimlines with acrylic blanks and free shipping for $10. Even figuring $1.50/ea for cheap kits in bulk, at least $3.50 for blanks, and maybe $4.50 for shipping, that's only $.50 to cover packaging - never mind CA, shop towels, tool wear & tear, etc. It's frustrating, because I've been trying to figure out pricing for a hypothetical Etsy shop of my own, and those guys are clearly dragging down everyone else's prices.


Lots of people, apparently. I guess there's always a market for adequate quality with a cheap price tag.

Etsy (or selling online in general) also makes it harder for buyers to know what sort of fit & finish they're getting - or easier to gloss over the fact that it's less than ideal (especially with the "I'm going to show ten pens in each photo" sellers) - and the ones who're buying the cheapo pens may not even know what to look for. Or simply don't care.
 

RunnerVince

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Dec 18, 2019
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My method defies all the laws of turning. First of all, I only turn on a dead center/live center combo- - no mandrel. I only measure with a caliper and do not use bushings - -I have a draw full but leave them there. I sand and polish on the lathe and before all this I clean and square the ends with a round nose scraper for a perfect fit. end of story. P.
I resisted this "true" TBC methodlogy for so long. The only thing I use my bushings for now is to get the blank down to round and very roughly down to size on my original mandrel. Then I switch to dead center/live center with no bushings and go the rest of the way with calipers. The last "new to me" kit I bought (my first Sierra), I didn't even buy the bushings, and I couldn't be happier with the results. Does it take a little longer? Yes. But to me, it's worth the increase in quality.
 

RunnerVince

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Dec 18, 2019
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Ogden, UT
I've been turning pens...well, for almost a year, although there have been some largish gaps. The last couple of months I've really gotten into turning pens more, after watching some of the presentations at a pen turners virtual conference in May. Learned a LOT from that conference (sadly, all the content seems to be locked out and is no longer accessible for re-review, I'm sure I could learn so much more), which lead me to switch from boring blanks on the lathe to buying a new Jet free-standing drill press, pen blank vise, and using a more refined technique there. Also started painting my tubes when doing acrylic/poly pens to avoid coloration issues. These have helped refine the quality of my pens a lot.

Another change I made was to move from a shafted mandrel, to a turn-between-centers mandrel from PSI. This too, has helped a lot. The TBC mandrel is really great, and even though I can't turn a pair of blanks at once, applying some of the tips and techniques from the conference (such as marking the inside of the tubes on the sides of each half of the pen blanks that are supposed to match grain/design wise, and also drawing arrows and labeling each blank as to whether it is the top or bottom half, or pen or cap half, etc. has made the ability to turn only one at a time a non-issue.)

I am still struggling, however, to achieve that "perfect seam" where the blank is turned down to just exactly the right size at the bushings to seamlessly fit the pen kit parts. I've spent weeks recently trying to hone my skills there, and I think I've pretty much got it down. Sadly, I still have out of round issues, and it doesn't seem as though any amount of trying has resolved it so far.

I started to pay closer attention to the tools, the lathe, and the mandrel...and I am beginning to think that the mandrel I received from PSI may in fact not be entirely true. The shaft from the mandrel that fits into the head stock seems to be quite true, however the shaft from the free-spinning mandrel that fits into the tail stock, seems like it may be very slightly bent...ever so slightly. I think this is causing a vibration in the bushing, which is keeping me from turning that side of any given blank down properly. I seem to be able to turn it down just right on one side of the blank, but on the other I'm unable to turn it all the way down to the bushing.

It may also be partly the lathe as well. I have two lathes, a Wen 14x20 and a Laguna Revo 1524. The Wen is pretty nice, was a replacement for my original lathe, a Nova Comet 14DR (horrible lathe, started exhibiting problems within 6 months, if even, and took another 4+ months to get Teknatool to actually accept an RMA, fix it, and when they sent it back it still had problems...very souring experience!), and I've turned the majority of my pens on it. Its size just kind of fit pen turning better than the much larger Laguna. I did try turning some pens on the Laguna recently, however, and while I still had out of round issues, they seemed to be much less. Laguna has their Precise Point technology in the tailstock which allows you to very precisely align the headstock and tailstock/quill centering, and I think that may have helped as well. Despite dialing that in as perfectly as I could, it still seems as though there is a vibration in the tailstock side of the TBC mandrel.

Finally, I've occasionally had vibration in the bushing at the headstock side of things. Not in all cases, but sometimes I think some bushings don't perfectly fit the bushing shaft on the mandrel, and I'm wondering if that may also be allowing for some vibration...

Anyway. I guess my question is...has anyone else encountered vibration issues like this? If so, are there any tips or techniques I could follow to try and minimize these issues, so I can get that more-perfect turn and ideal fit at the seams when assembling my pens?
I tried the same PSI TBC mandrel that you mention, and I had all the same issues. Vibration, non-concentric turning, and endless amounts of frustration. It was slightly better than my original mandrel, but still not acceptable to me. I made sure everything was clean, used brand new bushings, and quadruple checked that my headstock and tailstock were aligned, and nothing worked.
I finally decided to cut my losses and just ordered a dead center and 60 degree cone live center, and I haven't looked back. I don't even feel right trying to sell my old TBC mandrel because I think the results are so much better with "true" TBC. I've read others who have had great luck with the PSI TBC mandrel, but my advice to anyone thinking about buying one is that the mixed results others have seen should be reason enough to skip this one. As a new penturner, I had a really hard time "abandoning" my bushings and learning to rely on my calipers more. I've been doing this for close to a year now, and I still pine for using bushings. But I remember all the frustration I had and wish someone had told me when I started to spend all the money I'd end up spending on bushings on a really good set of digital calipers, dead center, and 60 degree live center.
I simply have to pile on with all the TBC die-hards. It's the single best thing you can do for the quality of your pens.
 

jrista

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Aug 12, 2021
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Colorado
I tried the same PSI TBC mandrel that you mention, and I had all the same issues. Vibration, non-concentric turning, and endless amounts of frustration. It was slightly better than my original mandrel, but still not acceptable to me. I made sure everything was clean, used brand new bushings, and quadruple checked that my headstock and tailstock were aligned, and nothing worked.
I finally decided to cut my losses and just ordered a dead center and 60 degree cone live center, and I haven't looked back. I don't even feel right trying to sell my old TBC mandrel because I think the results are so much better with "true" TBC. I've read others who have had great luck with the PSI TBC mandrel, but my advice to anyone thinking about buying one is that the mixed results others have seen should be reason enough to skip this one. As a new penturner, I had a really hard time "abandoning" my bushings and learning to rely on my calipers more. I've been doing this for close to a year now, and I still pine for using bushings. But I remember all the frustration I had and wish someone had told me when I started to spend all the money I'd end up spending on bushings on a really good set of digital calipers, dead center, and 60 degree live center.
I simply have to pile on with all the TBC die-hards. It's the single best thing you can do for the quality of your pens.

Yeah, I am learning that going completely bushingless, may be the only way. I just turned one pen, a Wall Street II, that put two grooves into my dead and live center with the bushings. Now I have to figure out what to do about those, as I no longer seem to get that vibration-less spin that I did before. I am not sure why these particular bushings caused this problem, either.

I've also contacted PSI about my TBC mandrel. The live center on it definitely has a slightly bent shaft, which is undoubtedly causing problems. I'm going to make them replace it, as it shouldn't be that way, not with the way they advertise the thing.

I figure I'll do most of the turning with some kind of bushing-based TBC, then ditch the bushings for that final turndown and sanding. I'm trying a variety of finishes, and I think I am going to give CA a try again as well, as I have a big order for pens coming up and I think they will need to be pretty durable. Not a fan of the plastic look, but I need something very durable... One of the other reasons I have not liked CA, is it builds up to a non-trivial thickness, which can throw off an otherwise perfectly turned blank. So I'm going to need to figure out how thick the CA buildup will be on average, and I guess turn my blanks down enough below the caliper-measured size of the pen kit parts enough to account for the CA layer buildup.

Anyway...the last week has not been good. Turning that darn Sierra kit seems to have ruined my 60deg dead and live center. I guess I can try sanding down just that little..well, ridges around a small divot, on both, and see if I can get it back to smooth and true. This is truly the most frustrating aspect of turning pens.
 
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