Starting point for CA method?

[Raymond]

Let's see if I have this right. I gather that everyone has their own specific methods, but some methods conflict with others. And it's frustrating when some "methods" include instructions like "with practice you'll eventually figure out how and when to [do this or that]." That may be true, but I have no idea what I'm watching for. After reading most of the threads and watching several videos on finishing, I've gleened that this might be a suitable sequence for most woods. I've tried to combine several methods into what I hope will be a good place to start. I'm looking for something that's pretty reliable if not universally perfect and simple enough for a caveman until I learn enough to intelligently try something different.

Sand the bare blank to 600 grit sandpaper.
Sand with MM from 1500 through 12000.
Buff with a strip of grocery bag paper.
Stop the lathe and sand lengthwise (with ???)
Set the lathe on a slow speed (500-700 rpm?)
Spray on accelerator and wipe dry with a paper towel.
Apply medium CA to a paper towel and wipe on a first coat.
Apply medium CA to a paper towel and wipe on a second coat.
Lightly sand with MM from 1500 through 12000.
Stop the lathe and sand lengthwise (with ???)
Restart the lathe at low speed.
Spray on accelerator and wipe dry with a paper towel.
Apply medium CA to a paper towel and wipe on a third coat.
Apply medium CA to a paper towel and wipe on a fourth coat.
Lightly sand with MM from 1500 through 12000.
Stop the lathe and sand lengthwise (with ???)
Restart the lathe at low speed.
Spray on accelerator and wipe dry with a paper towel.
Apply medium CA to a paper towel and wipe on a fifth coat.
Apply medium CA to a paper towel and wipe on a sixth coat.
Lightly sand with MM from 1500 through 12000.
Stop the lathe and sand lengthwise (with ???)
Restart the lathe at low speed.
Spray on accelerator and wipe dry with a paper towel.
Apply medium CA to a paper towel and wipe on a seventh coat.
Apply medium CA to a paper towel and wipe on an eighth coat.
Lightly sand with MM from 1500 through 12000.
Stop the lathe and sand lengthwise (with ???)
Restart the lathe at low speed.
Spray on accelerator and wipe dry with a paper towel.
Apply medium CA to a paper towel and wipe on a ninth coat.
Apply medium CA to a paper towel and wipe on a tenth coat.
Spray on accelerator and wipe dry with a paper towel.
Set the lathe to high speed and buff with a strip of grocery bag paper.

From there, it's straight to assembly? Or do I need to apply Ren Wax or something else (I don't have a buffing wheel system)?

That seems like an awful lot of sanding. How much of that is overkill? Are there any steps I can eliminate?

Do I need to sand to 12000 MM and wipe with accellerator between EACH coat or between pairs of coats?

At what points would the paper grocery bag buffing be inserted, if at all?

Is BLO necessary with this sequence? If so, where does it come in?

Would thin or thick CA be better for any of the ten coats?

I'm sorry if this is rudimentary or redundant for the experts, but I have to believe that there are lots of us who are bewildered by the various products and methods to applying a "good" finish to our first pens.

I don't mean to be dense. I just want to do this right from the get go. Thanks for your help.

Ray

 

[NewLondon88]

I would agree that everyone finds their own way, and this list looks like
it took much longer to type that it would take to apply a beautiful CA
finish.

Here's what you do: Get a piece of scrap lumber and try a simplified
version. Try a dark wood if you can, just to make it easier to see.

There's a lot of extra steps in there, but I know you were illustrating a
point.. it is a combination of everone's ideas pulled together. You will
probably make a routine of your own.

A few basics:
BLO brings out the figuring in the wood. It makes grain 'pop'.
brown paper bag helps burnish. Some do it, some don't.
Accelerator can help dry up oils, which can interfere with a finish.
Some use it, some don't. Some wipe with denatured alcohol instead.

The better your sanding before CA, the better your final product will be.
Some people sand in between coats, some do not. It depends on how
your CA application goes. Sand if you need it. If not, then don't. :biggrin:

Get a good finish on a piece of scrap.. sand as high as you can.
Hit it with a little BLO and wipe it off after a few minutes.
Apply some thin CA with a paper towel. Having some BLO on the towel
should help you get a smoother application.
Don't use any accelerator for now. Let it dry.
Repeat the process with Medium CA a few times so you build up a
thicker finish.
Now try leveling it out with 600 grit wet/dry as rherrell outlined.
I use denatured alcohol to wipe down the blank so I can inspect it.

If it is level, try using the micromesh WET and see how it goes. If you get
to 12,000 and see problems, you might want more coats. If it looks good,
then maybe try some white diamond or plastic polish.

By now you might have an idea about how you want to adjust the process
for your own needs. Or you might want to try it again on another piece of
scrap.

By next week, we expect to see YOUR tutorial on CA finishes posted here.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

ps.. RenWax helps keep fingerprints off of the finish. I like it, and it takes
about 10 seconds, including time to dry.

It might seem like a lot of sanding, but that's what 99% of finishing is.
If someone tells you there's a magic product you can put on raw wood and
get a beautiful finish without any work, they probably also have a bottle
of snake oil they can sell you. Finishing is mostly mechanical, not product.

You might be able to eliminate some of the sanding steps between coats,
but that will depend on how good a job you did sanding BEFORE coats.
The closer to perfect your finish is before you apply CA, the less you will
need to sand/level/smooth between coats.
Your eyes will be the judge.

Some people like their CA thin, some medium, some thick and some gel.
Personally, I prefer thin for the first coat as a sealer. Then I use medium
or thick to build up a finish. But that's only what has worked for me.. each
person finds their own way.

It might sound overly complicated, but I'll bet if we asked people to
describe their routine for washing their car, the list of options would soon
be just as confusing.

Try it out on some scrap . .something that doesn't matter. All you can lose
is a little CA and some time.

 

[Skye]

A guy who had a GREAT ca finish went by the name Fangar. I speak past tense because I haven't seen him around in a while. Below are his instructions.


CA finish is an odd thing. It's like raising a child, everyone has their own method, everyone thinks everyone else is doing a better job than themselves.

In the end, CA finishes can be summed up as

• Seal with a thin layer of CA first.
• Another layer or three of medium on top of that
• Achieve a uniform, pitless surface
• Buff that surface to a high shine with MM

CA finishes are nothing more than creating a layer of shiny plastic between you and the wood. Cross sanding between the medium CA applications keeps the sanding marks down. Clean the residue from the pen between each of those coats. When the next coat of CA is applied, the clearness comes back, so there's no need to MM your way through each layer. CA finishes dont 'need' anything after the MM, but you can enhance and protect the shine with a buffing/waxing.

Some people, like Chris Higdon just uses 5 or 6 coats of thin CA, applied with nothing in between, then finished. (or last I heard.) Seems simple, I tried it, worked terrible for me. Just because someone spells out their process doesn't mean it'll work for you, even if you follow that process. It's a tough finish to master and has just as much to do with the person touching the wood as it does the process.

Good luck with it!


Fangar Finish:

Thought I would post my CA finishing method for all those interested. My method I use in a nut shell is as follows:

-1800 RPM‑

Sand with 240, 320, and 400 Grit papers.

Wipe down with denatured alcohol (DNA)

Apply a thin sealer coat of Thin CA with 400 grit paper.

New sheet of 400 grit smooth out.

Wipe down with DNA.

MM through 12000 (DNA as needed between coats to remove sanding debris. Usually between each three of the MM.)

Two coats of Myland's cellulose sanding sealer. MM last four grits through 12000 again. DNA

-Slow lathe to 500 Rpm. ( or Slowest setting).‑

Apply two coats thin CA with Costco Paper Shop towel. Air dry only between coats (NO ACCELERATOR).



Apply Two Coats of Thick CA, as smoothly as possible.

Air dry between coats. (If you do need to use a light application of ACC, I wait at least 1 minute after each CA application, and only

use the Aerosol from a distance. I don't have any issues with cloudiness or bubbles this way. The pump ACC does not work for me)



-Speed lathe back up to 1800 RPM.‑



Sand with 320 Grit Sometimes 240 grit if I went crazy) to remove any ridges, swirls etc.



Sand with 400 grit.



DNA



MM through 12000.



DNA



Buffing wheel with White Diamond only.



Hut Plastic Polish applied with paper shop towel.



TSW.



It seems like a ton of work, but really takes about 20 minutes from start to finish. Each grit of paper and MM is a very quick, light sand letting the papers do the work. There is not a ton of time on each grit, though I do make sure I have removed the sanding lines etc. I have worked on this method for quite a while, and it really works the best as far as results for me.



Some people will say: There are overlapping grits, overkill, overdone, why, what for, stepping back down in grit at times, unnecessary, etc. but it works for me. Maybe more of a ritual like a baseball player that goes through his nervous superstitious dance prior to each pitch!

 

[Raymond]

I use Mylands sanding sealer before sanding but any good sanding sealer should work.

Does the sanding sealer do anything that the accelerator/CA or BLO/CA doesn't or is it just a personal preference?

...if you're in a hurry( which, by the way is NEVER a good idea when finishing, PATIENCE is the key!).

I understand completely. It's not so much being in a hurry as not wanting to waste time doing repetitive steps that accomplish nothing. I don't mind a few extra minutes of sanding if it accomplishes something. Do you cross sand each grit of MM before moving to the next or just leave the lathe running while you step through the grits? It seems like once you've sanded across the grain with the lathe running, you'd have to sand length wise to get rid of the sanding scratches.

So your sequence would be:
Sanding sealer
Single coat of CA
Sand with 600 grit across (lathe running) then with (lathe off) the grain
Repeat the CA/sanding process to build up the finish; no other products added between coats
MM all the way through 12000 and call it a day (assuming the finish looks good at that point)

BLO brings out the figuring in the wood. It makes grain 'pop'.
...
Accelerator can help dry up oils, which can interfere with a finish.
...
Some use it, some don't. Some wipe with denatured alcohol instead.

What's confusing about that is that we're adding boiled linseed OIL. Doesn't adding oil to the surface contradict using accelerator to reduce the oil already in the wood? I've seen BLO used in some of the videos and it doesn't seem to hurt anything even when used between coats of CA. But adding oil between the layers of CA sure seems like it ought to be a bad thing in terms of getting one layer of CA to bond with the next. Especially if naturally present oils in the blank aren't good for the CA finish.

Once you've sealed the wood with an intact layer of CA, I presume the only benefit of accelerator is to speed up the CA. There shouldn't be anymore oil to dry up between the coats of CA, right?

The better your sanding before CA, the better your final product will be. Some people sand in between coats, some do not. It depends on how your CA application goes. Sand if you need it. If not, then don't.

I assume the determining factor is whether the CA appears to be smooth or needs high spots leveled between coats. With most other projects, I'd sand between coats but that's usually to ensure adhesion of one layer to the next (i.e., polyurethane). If that isn't an issue with CA, it sounds like building up a thicker finish with several layers of CA before sanding would speed things along without detracting from the end result. I'll try it both ways and see what happens.

Your approach would be:
BLO
Several applications of CA/BLO combined on a paper towel, air drying between coats
Sand with 600 grit
Add more CA/BLO only if the finish appears to need it
MM through 12000
Plastic polish (EEE?)
Ren Wax

I'm planning to try medium CA first only because thin is so thin I think it might be hard to control.

By next week, we expect to see YOUR tutorial on CA finishes posted here.

If it helps anyone else in my state of confusion, I'd be happy to do so. :wink:

In the end, CA finishes can be summed up as
Seal with a thin layer of CA first.
Another layer or three of medium on top of that
Achieve a uniform, pitless surface
Buff that surface to a high shine with MM

600 grit between the 3-4 CA coats?

Seems simple, I tried it, worked terrible for me.

What went wrong?

Interesting that Mr. Fangar uses sanding sealer AFTER the CA.



This has been another good learning experience. I've got a few things to try out from this while I'm on vacation for the next week. Thanks to you all for sharing.

 

[RMB]

I've been useing a very "undercomplicated" method of CA finishing, thought I might add that into the mix of methods.

This is kind of a Brute Force method. I use all Thick CA, and put it on Heavy.

It's what's been working for me, probably over 50 pens or so at about 95% sucess rate.

-Turn the blank, fill any voids, use thin CA, sealer, or whatever you need to get a smooth blank.

-Sand to 600, sanding lengthwise between the higher grits, pay special attention to the ends of the blanks. Wipe off any dust.

- Place a 1/4" wide blob of thick CA on a paper towel and wipe it on at about 1700 rpm. I find a slightly higher speed than most helps make the ridges smaller, if you're carefull about not letting it sling off.

-A couple squirts of accelerator, wait a few seconds.

-Wipe on a second coat of CA, then a third to each blank. Start each coat on alternating sides of the blank.

-Another couple sprays accelerator per blank, applied with lathe on. (I usually don't stop it at all during the CA application)

-Fourth and fifth coat of CA.

-Accelerator.

-Give it a couple minutes, clean up the shavings, pick your nose, assemble another pen or whatever.

-It'll be pretty rough by now. Turn the lathe back on, set to 1200 or so, sand with 320, 400, 600. Lengthwise after each. I take down the ridges and get rid of most of the shiny spots (valleys) with the 320, lathe on, then get the rest of them with the lathe off. Should be somewhat shiney after 600.

-IMPORTANT- use the toe of a skew, parting tool, something pointy, to very gently cut through the buildup of CA on the bushings, all the way down to the metal, about 1/64th past the wood. If you leave it, the blanks will stick to the bushings, and the finish will most likely chip when you separate them. Clean up the remaining CA overhand lightly with a barrel trimmer, or by hand on a peice of sandpaper on a flat surface.

-Buff with red and then white compound. I use my homemade triple buff (cost about 30$ at HD, PM me anybody). A buffing wheel in a cordless drill works too. Or use MM and a compound. I don't even touch MM since I made my buffing setup.

At best, this takes me 5 minutes.

Hope this gives people some ideas. CA doesn't have to be all that complicated, It may sound like a lot of steps, but really it's: CA, Accelerator, CA, CA, Accelerator,CA, CA, Accelerator, Sand, Polish.

 

[leehljp]

A few notes here - You are wanting absolutes in a relative world. Mutually exclusive. CA finishes change from person to person, season to season and often from wood to wood - period! I change my methods often from wood to wood or winter versus summer or high humidity times versus normal humidity. IF you get everything down PAT and write down what you think is the perfect document on finishing, the next person will still not be able to duplicate it using that document. Why is this???

Sand lightly:
. . A. 250 lb muscular person will sand through 3 layers of medium CA in 5 seconds and dare you to tell him that he was not sanding lightly.
. . B. A 120 lb person will swear that he sanded lightly for twice the amount of time suggested and it still has ridges.

10 Second Sanding Rule:
. . A. To an impatient person who does not want to have to go through and sand again and again redundantly, will argue after 5 seconds that he sanded the suggested time.
. . B. To a laid back person, he will say - I only sanded about 10 seconds and kept sanding through (when in actuality he sanded 20 - 30 seconds).

CA Application:
EACH individual perceives applications of CA differently. Some apply CA (thin, med or thick) with paper towel, the PT will absorb most (80%?) of the CA. Applying with a non absorbent applicator will put 90% of the CA onto the turning blank. As each person figures out which his favorite method is, then the way of describing becomes relative. If you get tired of redundantly applying CA for a build up, then lose the PT and get an applicator that doesn't absorb the CA, but be prepared to wait longer for the thicker layers to cure. Relative again. No set rule for a beginner except patience.

Your first statement of And it's frustrating when some "methods" include instructions like "with practice you'll eventually figure out how and when to [do this or that]." That may be true, but I have no idea what I'm watching for.
If you can figure out one single descriptive method that allows for all of the relatives for EACH individual's 'perception of timing', of 'CA build up' regardless of application method, of 'sanding pressure' differences in a 120 lb versus 250 pounder, that would be great. I think you will also learn that if you do write down the perfect description, you will find that in winter or high humid situations, adjustments will have to be made according to the individual situation - or suddenly there will find white spots or cloudy finishes. (What happened to that simplified perfect list? Suddenly it doesn't work right in these situations!)

A single "list of steps" for the perfect finish - that works consistently year round - for everyone is impossible. There is nothing wrong with experimenting. Forget about "getting it right from the get go" and learn each process - step by step with your method. If you shoot for the final goal and happen to "get it" fine, but what have you really learned for yourself? Most anyone can run a 100 yards on a foot ball field when it is empty, but what happens when 11 defenders are there? All of the variables in pen making steps are like the 11 defenders and no one else on the forum is on your playing field with you when a "variable" pops its ugly head up.

"Mr. Experimenting" and "Mrs. Practice" along with "MS experience" are wonderful companions. "Mr. Getting it right from the get go" makes for a terrible teacher in troubling situations and is a "fair weather" friend only.

 

[Larry Gottlieb]

I'll add to the variations.

I use wood for all of my pens. Some have corian, acrylic, trustone, etc bands.

The look that I aim for is wood with some gloss. Not a plastic appearance.

Despite Hank's advice to use many layers of CA, I use 3 layers of BLO/thin CA after sanding to 12,000 MM burnishing with brown paper, and wiping with alcohol.
The BLO is applied with folded Bounty towel which is then used to apply the CA. I use the same spot on the towel to apply all three layers.

After overnight "rest" the dull but smooth finish is then polished with EEE (or Simonize rubbing compound) If the finish is rough (infrequently) I then sand and use MM.

The glossy barrels then have Renaissance wax applied at very slow speed and hand buffed with flannel rag.

Of course this may change at any time.

Larry