Stabilization
- Thread starter joewez
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ahoiberg
Member
this article covers one way to do it... i think i remember someone posting about using the minwax (may have been a different company) wood hardener or something like that that you can pick up at home depot or where ever and you can use that without any pressure/vacuum if you don't have the set up. anyway, here's that article from the library:
http://content.penturners.org/articles/2004/polyurethane1.pdf
http://content.penturners.org/articles/2004/polyurethane1.pdf
ElMostro
Member
About stabilizing wood.
Disclaimer: I am not an expert, these are techniques that I use and work for what I do, there are likely better (read more expensive) ways to stabilize wood out there so this list is not all inclusive, First I will give you my definition of "stabilizing wood" for pen turning. "To take a piece of wood that is too soft in its current state to be able to turn and harden it (stabilize it) in order to make it turnable.
METHOD 1: (the simplest). Use Minwax wood hardener (This idea came from Pilot, I am just describing how I do it). Pour a can of Minwax Wood Hardener in a glass jar big enough so that a normal pen blank (aprox 3/4" x 3/4" x 5 1/2") can lay flat. Drop the blanks in the jar and close lid tightly. Wait until blanks sink plus one day then take out and let dry. The Minwax will saturate the blank and harden the fibers. It will not fill wormholes or repair cracks. Depending on the type of wood this can take from 2-5 days.
METHOD 1A:If you want to speed it up you can place a weight on top of the blanks so that they do not float. Make sure the liquid completely covers the blank.
METHOD 1B: If you want to speed it up more and plan on doing this for many blanks you can set up a paint pressure pot and apply pressure (or vacuum) to the blanks while submerged in the hardener. This is what I do and apply 80 psi for about 24 hours and by then the blanks have sunk. Release the pressure and when the blanks stop "bubbleing" I bring the pot back up to 80 PSI for another 24 and pull them out and set to dry.
Method 2: Requires Acetone, acrylic (Plexiglas) air compressor and a paint pressure pot . Make sure it is acrylic because if not it will not work. Pour the acetone in a tall mason jar about half full. Cut the Plexiglas in 1" squares. I use a bolt cutter for this just make sure you have eye protection bec the plexiglas has a tendency shoot out when it cracks. Put the pieces of Plexiglas in the acetone jar and close tightly (acetone evaporates very quickly). Sit jar on a shelf out of the way and shake it every 4-5 hours. Depending on the quantity of Plexiglas and acetone it may take a few days to dissolve into a syrup like slurry. Take another jar like the one from the minwax method and pour the slurry in the jar. If you have a clump at the bottom of the mason jar leave it there and pour more acetone in it. Set it on a shelf and shake it at least twice a day. Keep repeating this until the Plexiglas is completely dissolved and transferred to the larger jar. Make enough so that the large jar is no more than half way full but full enough to cover the blanks if submerged. The final solution should have the consistency of water. Once the solution is ready put the blanks you want to stabilize in the mixture, weigh then down with something so they stay submerged put the whole thing in the pressure pot put the lid on as per instructions and apply pressure. Again I apply 80 PSI. Apply pressure for about 12 hours then release it, let stand for several hours then apply pressure again. I do this about 4 or five times over a 3-4 day period. After doing this several times release the air, open the pot and take out the blanks and set them out side to dry. Do not stack them on each other bec they will stick. The acetone evaporates and the dissolved acrylic hardens inside the wood fibers. One additional benefit is that wood treated like this is easier to turn and finishes easier.
Method 3: Requires Mineral Spirits, oil base poly, air compressor and a paint pressure pot. Make a 50/50 mix of poly and mineral spirits. Again, not more than 1/2 full for the large glass jar. Follow the directions above, the method is the same but the mixture is what is different.
Method 4: Requires Allumilite, air compressor and a paint pressure pot. This falls more under "casting" VS stabilizing but is a method a use for blanks with cracks, holes, and missing chunks of wood. (lime Mesquiteman's useless wood approach) I can cover this in a separate posting if anyone cares.
Other methods I am still testing is with a liquid called "Permabond 90" and styrofoam dissolved in MEKP (nasty stuff). But have not tested enough to recommend it yet.
Then you can always send your stuff out to be professionally stabilized, big machines do the same thing as above (but better)but the liquids are different and under a lot more pressure with the final stage being that they "cook" the blanks which some times distorts them. The price is about $10-15 per pound with a minimum of 10 pounds. You send them 5 pound of wood they treat it and weight it then they charge you by the pound. So 5 pound of punky dry wood can weigh 15 pounds by the time they get done with it. Yea, I know what you are thinking...that is why I use the methods above.
And Finally ""Caution""; Do this only in a WELL VENTILATED area (out doors) and use eye and breathing protection, in addition to gloves AND don't smoke. All of these chemicals release vapors that are bad for your lungs and eyes and are flammable. Safety first!
Again; This is the way I do it, it works for me but may not work for you.
Disclaimer: I am not an expert, these are techniques that I use and work for what I do, there are likely better (read more expensive) ways to stabilize wood out there so this list is not all inclusive, First I will give you my definition of "stabilizing wood" for pen turning. "To take a piece of wood that is too soft in its current state to be able to turn and harden it (stabilize it) in order to make it turnable.
METHOD 1: (the simplest). Use Minwax wood hardener (This idea came from Pilot, I am just describing how I do it). Pour a can of Minwax Wood Hardener in a glass jar big enough so that a normal pen blank (aprox 3/4" x 3/4" x 5 1/2") can lay flat. Drop the blanks in the jar and close lid tightly. Wait until blanks sink plus one day then take out and let dry. The Minwax will saturate the blank and harden the fibers. It will not fill wormholes or repair cracks. Depending on the type of wood this can take from 2-5 days.
METHOD 1A:If you want to speed it up you can place a weight on top of the blanks so that they do not float. Make sure the liquid completely covers the blank.
METHOD 1B: If you want to speed it up more and plan on doing this for many blanks you can set up a paint pressure pot and apply pressure (or vacuum) to the blanks while submerged in the hardener. This is what I do and apply 80 psi for about 24 hours and by then the blanks have sunk. Release the pressure and when the blanks stop "bubbleing" I bring the pot back up to 80 PSI for another 24 and pull them out and set to dry.
Method 2: Requires Acetone, acrylic (Plexiglas) air compressor and a paint pressure pot . Make sure it is acrylic because if not it will not work. Pour the acetone in a tall mason jar about half full. Cut the Plexiglas in 1" squares. I use a bolt cutter for this just make sure you have eye protection bec the plexiglas has a tendency shoot out when it cracks. Put the pieces of Plexiglas in the acetone jar and close tightly (acetone evaporates very quickly). Sit jar on a shelf out of the way and shake it every 4-5 hours. Depending on the quantity of Plexiglas and acetone it may take a few days to dissolve into a syrup like slurry. Take another jar like the one from the minwax method and pour the slurry in the jar. If you have a clump at the bottom of the mason jar leave it there and pour more acetone in it. Set it on a shelf and shake it at least twice a day. Keep repeating this until the Plexiglas is completely dissolved and transferred to the larger jar. Make enough so that the large jar is no more than half way full but full enough to cover the blanks if submerged. The final solution should have the consistency of water. Once the solution is ready put the blanks you want to stabilize in the mixture, weigh then down with something so they stay submerged put the whole thing in the pressure pot put the lid on as per instructions and apply pressure. Again I apply 80 PSI. Apply pressure for about 12 hours then release it, let stand for several hours then apply pressure again. I do this about 4 or five times over a 3-4 day period. After doing this several times release the air, open the pot and take out the blanks and set them out side to dry. Do not stack them on each other bec they will stick. The acetone evaporates and the dissolved acrylic hardens inside the wood fibers. One additional benefit is that wood treated like this is easier to turn and finishes easier.
Method 3: Requires Mineral Spirits, oil base poly, air compressor and a paint pressure pot. Make a 50/50 mix of poly and mineral spirits. Again, not more than 1/2 full for the large glass jar. Follow the directions above, the method is the same but the mixture is what is different.
Method 4: Requires Allumilite, air compressor and a paint pressure pot. This falls more under "casting" VS stabilizing but is a method a use for blanks with cracks, holes, and missing chunks of wood. (lime Mesquiteman's useless wood approach) I can cover this in a separate posting if anyone cares.
Other methods I am still testing is with a liquid called "Permabond 90" and styrofoam dissolved in MEKP (nasty stuff). But have not tested enough to recommend it yet.
Then you can always send your stuff out to be professionally stabilized, big machines do the same thing as above (but better)but the liquids are different and under a lot more pressure with the final stage being that they "cook" the blanks which some times distorts them. The price is about $10-15 per pound with a minimum of 10 pounds. You send them 5 pound of wood they treat it and weight it then they charge you by the pound. So 5 pound of punky dry wood can weigh 15 pounds by the time they get done with it. Yea, I know what you are thinking...that is why I use the methods above.
And Finally ""Caution""; Do this only in a WELL VENTILATED area (out doors) and use eye and breathing protection, in addition to gloves AND don't smoke. All of these chemicals release vapors that are bad for your lungs and eyes and are flammable. Safety first!
Again; This is the way I do it, it works for me but may not work for you.
clarkhall
Member
ElMostro,
What difference do you notice between the Minwax wood hardener and the 50/50 mix of poly and mineral spirits?
Is pressure and/or vacuum needed with the 50/50 mix of poly and mineral spirits or will it eventually soak into the wood?
My interest in stabilizing is for water proofing the wood for fly rod reel seats.
Clark
What difference do you notice between the Minwax wood hardener and the 50/50 mix of poly and mineral spirits?
Is pressure and/or vacuum needed with the 50/50 mix of poly and mineral spirits or will it eventually soak into the wood?
My interest in stabilizing is for water proofing the wood for fly rod reel seats.
Clark
Larry Gottlieb
Member
The suggestions of the need to stabilize all wood is surprising
I turn harvested wood with spalted maple and cherry burl as favorites.
I have never used any method of stabilization other than liberal use of CA in drilled blank before gluing tubes, and on surface as I turn.
When I first tried to turn a corncob, I used the same method and it worked. Now I see stabilized corncobs in catalogues and stores.I guess I missed my chance to make a fortune.
Larry G.
http://webpages.charter.net/lgottlieb2/
I turn harvested wood with spalted maple and cherry burl as favorites.
I have never used any method of stabilization other than liberal use of CA in drilled blank before gluing tubes, and on surface as I turn.
When I first tried to turn a corncob, I used the same method and it worked. Now I see stabilized corncobs in catalogues and stores.I guess I missed my chance to make a fortune.
Larry G.
http://webpages.charter.net/lgottlieb2/
ElMostro
Member
Clark,
What difference do you notice between the Minwax wood hardener and the 50/50 mix of poly and mineral spirits?
For one the minwax is faster and penetrates deeper if you are not using pressure or vac. If the wood is cross-cut you can lay the blank in about 1/4" of minwax and see it as it start soaking the top. Minwax works best for punky/softer wood.
The 50/50 works fine under pressure or vac (I normally just use pressure bec the vac will make the solution bubble and spill over the container making a mess. The only downside to the 50/50 poly is that it take several days to dry (especialy if the blanks are not pre-drilled) and it tends to darken lighter woods. To speed up the drying I stick it in a toaster oven on low for several hours after it has laid out for a couple of days, just have in mind it will stink up the shop.
Is pressure and/or vacuum needed with the 50/50 mix of poly and mineral spirits or will it eventually soak into the wood?
At first I tried with out pressure or vac and it will penetrate the fibers of crosscut blanks and if the blanks are pre-drilled but in some instances as you turn the wood wil become softer...all I can think is that the mineral spirits reached that spot but the poly did not. Again, you can always use some CA prior to the final turn.
If you will not be using vac or pressure I recommend you pre-drill the blanks and then make the outside diameter as small as you can for your kit then put in solution.
My interest in stabilizing is for water proofing the wood for fly rod reel seats.
I am not familiar with these but if they are larger/thicker than standard pen blanks just putting them in the solution may not work.
Eugene
What difference do you notice between the Minwax wood hardener and the 50/50 mix of poly and mineral spirits?
For one the minwax is faster and penetrates deeper if you are not using pressure or vac. If the wood is cross-cut you can lay the blank in about 1/4" of minwax and see it as it start soaking the top. Minwax works best for punky/softer wood.
The 50/50 works fine under pressure or vac (I normally just use pressure bec the vac will make the solution bubble and spill over the container making a mess. The only downside to the 50/50 poly is that it take several days to dry (especialy if the blanks are not pre-drilled) and it tends to darken lighter woods. To speed up the drying I stick it in a toaster oven on low for several hours after it has laid out for a couple of days, just have in mind it will stink up the shop.
Is pressure and/or vacuum needed with the 50/50 mix of poly and mineral spirits or will it eventually soak into the wood?
At first I tried with out pressure or vac and it will penetrate the fibers of crosscut blanks and if the blanks are pre-drilled but in some instances as you turn the wood wil become softer...all I can think is that the mineral spirits reached that spot but the poly did not. Again, you can always use some CA prior to the final turn.
If you will not be using vac or pressure I recommend you pre-drill the blanks and then make the outside diameter as small as you can for your kit then put in solution.
My interest in stabilizing is for water proofing the wood for fly rod reel seats.
I am not familiar with these but if they are larger/thicker than standard pen blanks just putting them in the solution may not work.
Eugene
clarkhall
Member
Eugene,
Thank you for the great info.
The reel seats are turned on a 3/8" mandrel and I have made bushings out of Corian to the final diameter of 0.665". I usually turn the blanks between centers to about 7/8" diameter, then drill the 3/8" center hole on the lathe. It is this ~7/8" diameter x ~3.5" long with a 3/8" hole blank that I would stabilize.
To mount on the fly rod blank, the reel seat is then drilled out to the fly rod blank diameter and mounted with epoxy. One end is epoxied into an inlet in the cork hanle, and the other end had an end cap epoxied on, so the outer diameter is the only part exposed. It does get wet frequently, so the desire to protect it.
I have been using a CA/BLO finish, but thought that waterproofing the wood plus lessening the probability of burls and spalted wood tearing out would be a better solution.
Thank you for the great info.
The reel seats are turned on a 3/8" mandrel and I have made bushings out of Corian to the final diameter of 0.665". I usually turn the blanks between centers to about 7/8" diameter, then drill the 3/8" center hole on the lathe. It is this ~7/8" diameter x ~3.5" long with a 3/8" hole blank that I would stabilize.
To mount on the fly rod blank, the reel seat is then drilled out to the fly rod blank diameter and mounted with epoxy. One end is epoxied into an inlet in the cork hanle, and the other end had an end cap epoxied on, so the outer diameter is the only part exposed. It does get wet frequently, so the desire to protect it.
I have been using a CA/BLO finish, but thought that waterproofing the wood plus lessening the probability of burls and spalted wood tearing out would be a better solution.
diamundgem
Member
I just built my pressure tank like the one on this site. My first blanks were from a win on Ebay. They were not just punky---they were rotten (Whew) Anyway I soaked them in Poly and half mineral spirits for 24 hours. It did darken the wood and they dried for 2 days outside. They still had a little dampness inside but cured all the way through. It helped considerably. They were so rotten at first, they just turned to dust with out stabilazation