Shop electrical Re-Hab. Comments and suggestions please

[endacoz]

The short of it.
I have a 20 am fuse from the basement going 50 foot outside to my shop. In the shop it goes into a small electrical box that splits that 20 amp to 2 15 amps.
I thought for the last 6 years that the electrical wire going outside was inside of metal conduit from the house to the shop. The electrical wire goes out of the house in 1 in metal conduit and goes into the shop inside of metal conduit. But today while lossening some soil to replant new grass in the back yard I was only digging maybe 3 inches deep and I found the wire, no metal conduit and it is just simple 12guage romex coated wire. So it appears to go from the house to the shop about 2 foot underground inside of metal conduit but apparently that is only for looks. Just the wire for 40 feet of the run.
For a long time I've wanted to put more power in the shop as if I run my heater I have to turn it off in order to use the table saw or the fuse will trip inside the house.
I live in minnesota. What is the cheapest / safest way to get more power out there. If I had more power I would run a 2hp dust collector, and other large tools. 1hp table saw. 1 3/4 hp band saw etc.
1. Whats suggested (In cold Minnesota) for conduit and wire guage to be run underground to the shed. Again about 50 feet.
2. Not sure I need 220 run out there but what are some recommendations for electrical power out to the shop. Say 60 amp out there and then split it up in its own box?
3. Any other tips you might have.
Ethan.
I need to do this in the next day or 2 or it won't happen this year!

 

[maxwell_smart007]

There are a number of concerns there...

A shallow wire, buried without protection is a scary situation....what if you had kids having fun digging with hand shovels or the like?

Also, conduit just where it can be seen screams 'fraud' and was likely just for show to try and fool the inspector.

I also worry when people are asking about electricity - it's not something for homeowners to mess around with - especially if they don't know the rules, guidelines, and safety precautions - there are code books which guide wire size and the like...and your local electrical inspector is the authority, not internet forums.

Wiring should be done by competent, knowledgeable experts - hire an electrician and get it fixed right! I'd rather spend some money and sleep soundly...

 

[endacoz]

I have re-wired my entire house myself all inspected and beyond the minimum code. Electricity is logical to me, it helps I grew up wiring car electronics and then went to school for computers and electrical engineering. I have full confidence in my abilities of doing my own.

I'm just looking for some advice as I have not burried wire before in Minnesota and not to a woodshop and want some people's opinions. My inspector knows me well and He said there are many ways to do it up to code. I know what the code says. needs to be in conduit 18-24 inches deep depending on if it is metal or pvc.

Just looking for some thoughts as to how much electricity and how.

 

[GaryMGg]

IF it was me, I'd price 50, 60, and 100 amp service including a sub panel in the shop.
The BOM will help drive your decision as you can see what it costs for your current needs AND estimate what your costs could be if your requirements increase in the future.
Risk vs. reward

 

[stonepecker]

We used pvc pipe when running wire to the shop. About a 75 ft run. Ran both the electric and cable in the same pipe. Yes, we used an over sized pipe and put it down about 3 feet. That was the easy part. Before closing everything uptight, we ran two heavy duty strings also. This allowed me to run an extra wire several years later.

Can't wait ti see the new power being used Ethan. Sound like a meet and greet is in order sometime this summer at your place.

Good luck with the work.
W

 

[Loucurr]

Metal underground will fail over time where as PVC will last the test time...especially through frost.

 

[flyitfast]

Agree with Gary. Putting a panel in the shop will allow you to shut the whole shop down when you are done for the day and not affect any other service.
Gordon

 

[maxwell_smart007]

No offense intended, Ethan...

As I don't know your knowledge level and experience... I just had to assume!

 

[endacoz]

No offence taken! Code is attached here for minnesota. I just know that sometimes the minimum code is not necessarily the best depending on what we are doing.

Lets say running a 2hp DC and a 1.5 hp saw and a 1/5 hp air filter plus lights. I often am using toaster ovens (2 right now) to dry my wood and cure my cactus juice.

No offense intended, Ethan...

As I don't know your knowledge level and experience... I just had to assume!

 

[jttheclockman]

Hello Ethan

Giving advice on a forum regarding electricity is something I too frown on. Unless it is something simple and easy to explain. Andrew is not wrong with his concerns. Wiring cars is not the same as wiring a house.

The first thing about the wire being buried that shallow is wrong. The use of 90 's to get in and out of buildings is not unusual especially if going through concrete.

I will first say that the use of PVC (schedule 40), is the way to go and burying 24" down is proper in your area. May even be deeper because of your frost line. Check with your inspector friend. Running a single phase 220 line is probably the way to go. Putting in a 60amp panel would probably be the way to go providing you have the capacity from your main panel. You said nothing about that.

Can't tell you what those tools will draw because we do not know if they will be wired 220v or 120v


Will tell you do not run any cable lines in with power lines and also do not use string as a secondary source for pulling. Run in seperate pipes and if you want to put a drag line in for later use use a piece of THHN wire #12 or #10. If you use string it will cut into the insulation of the wire when pulling around 90 degree bends. Also will get tangled with the existing wires. With the drag wire it will easily slide past with no damage to existing wires.

I highly suggest you talk to a licensed electrician in your area that is familar with your state and local codes and to see how your main panel fairs for adding a subpanel.

Will not give you any more info than that so please do not ask me. I just wanted to make you aware of a few things.

 

[Curly]

When I got my house in BC I turned the unfinished basement into the shop. The electrician put in a 60 amp sub panel off the 100 amp main. With it I could easily run my 5 hp 220v 29a air compressor, 3 hp 220v 19a dust pump and a dozen 100 watt incandescent lightbulbs lighting the room. Or when doing flat work, dust pump, lights, 3 hp 220v 20a table saw, 1.5hp? 110v 15a planer/jointer at the same time. Heating by house furnace. That would be the minimum to look at but if someone else will also be in the shop at the same time or you may get a welder etc bigger is better. I'm a firm believer in getting as much power as you can afford. I hate popping breakers or turning down a good deal on a bigger machine because there isn't enough power.

 

[wyone]

Best advice is to talk to a local electrician. But as a Master Electrician for 25+ years here is my quick advice

Install PVC from the existing panel, and hopefully install at least a 60 amp 220 volt panel in your outbuilding. You will find the difference between 60 amp and 100 amp is very small cost wise. But you need to make sure you have adequate space in your existing panel to install that 100 amp breaker.

NEVER EVER install cable, phone, data or anything like that in the same conduit as the power. PVC conduit is cheap and you can easily install a second conduit for that. Those types of cable typically have no true voltage rating on the insulation, and if there were ever to be a fault in the underground you could send AC into the cable, phone or data services in your home. Not a pretty site.

What you are describing you have now is most likely a UF type of cable. It is pretty common out West to use it for direct burial at 18 inches deep residentially. It is not uncommon to run either metal or PVC conduit down on each end to provide physical protection on the UF wire until it gets to the proper depth. UF looks a lot like typical romex, but it has a much better outer jacket and is very dependable. What you have though is most definitely not adequately sized for what you are using currently.

Best of luck to you! Feel free to ask any specific questions privately to me if you prefer.