Rhodium Plating

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Smitty37

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Awhile back we had a thread here where a member posted the results of some distructive testing of Rhodium Plating on some pen kits. The results of that test were that the Rhodium was very thin and we all wondered how to talk about that in our presentations.

This weekend I happened to be at the website of a USA Plating company that does Rhodium plating. They recommend rhodium be applied only 20 to 30 micro inches thick. Their reasoning is that if applied thicker rhodium tends to be brittle and may chip.

I think that we can all now sleep better with the thought that the rhodium on those kits was very thin because that is how it is supposed to be.

What you might want to do if you are concerned, is ask about the base material. It should be a bright metal - silver, platinum, chrome, or palladium come to mind. Silver might be the brightest...but all should be very bright. Side by side, rhodium should be noticeably brighter than chrome but probably not as bright as silver unless silver is the base plating.

My own are base plated with white gold made with palladium rather than nickel so there is no yellowish tinge.
 
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Hmmm

For the record I think - but haven't checked this out for sure yet - that Gold TN and Black TN also are applied pretty thin and use a different process than typical plating. That because TN is not a metal it is a ceramic.
 
Well, since we KNOW CSUSA and Dayacom BOTH read this site, you might think that ONE of them would come here to INFORM us why .5% of rhodium is good.

Since none has, I would surmise they are NOT real proud of their plating.

But, that's just me.
 
ed4copies said:
Well, since we KNOW CSUSA and Dayacom BOTH read this site, you might think that ONE of them would come here to INFORM us why .5% of rhodium is good.

Since none has, I would surmise they are NOT real proud of their plating.

But, that's just me.
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I found it at the site of a us company doing plating...prior to that Rizheng had told me it was thin ---- but not how thin. I might find that site again...they had some other interesting tidbits too. I was actually looking at corrosion when I saw this.
 
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There are a number of US companies that sell "plating at home" kits.

There are US companies that plate as a "Part time" venture--we used a couple when we were plating lead with copper, nickle and gold (for stained glass pieces).

Then there are US companies that plate in gold for conductivity of electrical components.

And US companies that plate for jewelers.

So, not knowing the area of expertise of the source, the information is, relatively useless.

I would LOVE to know of a source in the US that specializes in any type of plating that "translates" into pen making---THEY would be the closest thing we have to an "authority" on the topic.

And yes, as I understand it, tiGold is a completely different process from the metals. I am also amused at the terminology of a "clear rhodium" (a "see-through" metal??).

Oh well, if it is good enough for those selling to the public, that is really all that matters, I guess.
 
The question one should ask is not how thick or thin a plating or coating is but how durable it is, not so?

How many people have had returns on Rhodium plated kits vs 24k gold/satin chrome etc where the plating was the issue?
 
terryf said:
The question one should ask is not how thick or thin a plating or coating is but how durable it is, not so?

How many people have had returns on Rhodium plated kits vs 24k gold/satin chrome etc where the plating was the issue?
Click to expand...

If this is the only issue, then we owe an apology to PSI.
BEFORE we had dozens of platings, I sold hundreds of 24kt slimlines from PSI (there were only a couple sources) who advertised a "lifetime guarantee". Honestly, I never had one returned. They had some sort of clear-coat over the gold and it never failed---for me. Maybe we should revisit this as "durability rating" rather than plating issue.???
 
beating_a_dead_horse.jpg
 
DURABILITY RATING

ed4copies said:
terryf said:
The question one should ask is not how thick or thin a plating or coating is but how durable it is, not so?

How many people have had returns on Rhodium plated kits vs 24k gold/satin chrome etc where the plating was the issue?
Click to expand...

If this is the only issue, then we owe an apology to PSI.
BEFORE we had dozens of platings, I sold hundreds of 24kt slimlines from PSI (there were only a couple sources) who advertised a "lifetime guarantee". Honestly, I never had one returned. They had some sort of clear-coat over the gold and it never failed---for me. Maybe we should revisit this as "durability rating" rather than plating issue.???
Click to expand...


Why not organize an IAP testing venture?

Discuss and select test parameters. Any who want to participate can pitch in funds. Identify someone to head up the project. Select someone willing and qualified to run the tests. Buy a broad and fair spectrum of component sets for evaluation. Results go in as a library article. Remaining usable components auctioned off as a single lot by a well qualified auctioneer guy.

Disclaimer: I am personally unable to coordinate this myself as I am partially disabled. It takes all my energy just to keep up with life. I would certainly contribute funds.

Steve Guzy
 
No actually I think the point Roy is trying to make is that if someone's point of view doesn't match yours on this subject, then you are going to beat your drums until you are heard. Thus rendering the subject moot.
 
IPD_Mr said:
No actually I think the point Roy is trying to make is that if someone's point of view doesn't match yours on this subject, then you are going to beat your drums until you are heard. Thus rendering the subject moot.
Click to expand...

I thought I would disagree, Mike. Until I looked up the word to be certain I understood. Then, I found I agree with your assesment:

Definition of MOOT

1
a : open to question : debatable b : subjected to discussion : disputed
 
No Ed I went for this use of the word:

: deprived of practical significance

I see what you did. Look closer at the sentence structure. Thus rendering the subject moot. The definition that you chose for moot was as a verb not as an adjective. In my sentence rendering is the verb and moot is the adjective.
 
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IPD_Mr said:
No Ed I went for this use of the word:

: deprived of practical significance
Click to expand...


For years we have "parroted back" the information our vendors have given us. When we then attempt to quantify these assertions, you feel the results are "insignificant".

I differ.

I think all the information we can derive about the products we sell is VERY significant.
 
But when you do not like or accept any information that does not agree with your line of reasoning on the subject, all you do is keep on with your preaching and throwing innuendos. Thus it renders it moot.
 
IPD_Mr said:
But when you do not like or accept any information that does not agree with your line of reasoning on the subject, all you do is keep on with your preaching and throwing innuendos. Thus it renders it moot.
Click to expand...


In which case, if that is what you think, you can choose not to READ it. Others may benefit from the information, nonetheless.
 
ed4copies said:
There are a number of US companies that sell "plating at home" kits.

There are US companies that plate as a "Part time" venture--we used a couple when we were plating lead with copper, nickle and gold (for stained glass pieces).

Then there are US companies that plate in gold for conductivity of electrical components.

And US companies that plate for jewelers.

So, not knowing the area of expertise of the source, the information is, relatively useless.

I would LOVE to know of a source in the US that specializes in any type of plating that "translates" into pen making---THEY would be the closest thing we have to an "authority" on the topic.

And yes, as I understand it, tiGold is a completely different process from the metals. I am also amused at the terminology of a "clear rhodium" (a "see-through" metal??).

Oh well, if it is good enough for those selling to the public, that is really all that matters, I guess.
Click to expand...
That is what the company I was looking at does. It was a plating company. I'll try to find the link to it.

Me too Rhodium is a silver colored metal... from my reading so far it is never clear and I doubt that it can be made clear anymore than any other metal can.
 
Racine is awash with plating companies. NONE of whom would I consider asking about pens. They plate a product to the "specs" the customer furnishes. No more, no less.

I think you would understand that very well, Smitty---ties in to "quality control" (as I understand it).
 
SteveG said:
ed4copies said:
terryf said:
The question one should ask is not how thick or thin a plating or coating is but how durable it is, not so?

How many people have had returns on Rhodium plated kits vs 24k gold/satin chrome etc where the plating was the issue?
Click to expand...

If this is the only issue, then we owe an apology to PSI.
BEFORE we had dozens of platings, I sold hundreds of 24kt slimlines from PSI (there were only a couple sources) who advertised a "lifetime guarantee". Honestly, I never had one returned. They had some sort of clear-coat over the gold and it never failed---for me. Maybe we should revisit this as "durability rating" rather than plating issue.???
Click to expand...

Why not organize an IAP testing venture?

Discuss and select test parameters. Any who want to participate can pitch in funds. Identify someone to head up the project. Select someone willing and qualified to run the tests. Buy a broad and fair spectrum of component sets for evaluation. Results go in as a library article. Remaining usable components auctioned off as a single lot by a well qualified auctioneer guy.

Disclaimer: I am personally unable to coordinate this myself as I am partially disabled. It takes all my energy just to keep up with life. I would certainly contribute funds.

Steve Guzy[/quote]Epoxy I think currently it is used over many platings depending on the vendor. I can specify it for just about any plating.

I was not intending to raise an issue on plating. I believe you were involved in the testing we had done and I found what I thought to be the reason for the extremely thin Rhodium plating we'd found.
Click to expand...
 
Is the "clear" not meant to be used to define its ultra bright shine, possibly with a silver base as you mentioned earlier Smitty?

Smitty37 said:
ed4copies said:
There are a number of US companies that sell "plating at home" kits.

There are US companies that plate as a "Part time" venture--we used a couple when we were plating lead with copper, nickle and gold (for stained glass pieces).

Then there are US companies that plate in gold for conductivity of electrical components.

And US companies that plate for jewelers.

So, not knowing the area of expertise of the source, the information is, relatively useless.

I would LOVE to know of a source in the US that specializes in any type of plating that "translates" into pen making---THEY would be the closest thing we have to an "authority" on the topic.

And yes, as I understand it, tiGold is a completely different process from the metals. I am also amused at the terminology of a "clear rhodium" (a "see-through" metal??).

Oh well, if it is good enough for those selling to the public, that is really all that matters, I guess.
Click to expand...
That is what the company I was looking at does. It was a plating company. I'll try to find the link to it.

Me too Rhodium is a silver colored metal... from my reading so far it is never clear and I doubt that it can be made clear anymore than any other metal can.
Click to expand...
 
ed4copies said:
Racine is awash with plating companies. NONE of whom would I consider asking about pens. They plate a product to the "specs" the customer furnishes. No more, no less.

I think you would understand that very well, Smitty---ties in to "quality control" (as I understand it).
Click to expand...
I agree. It is a matter of how you create the spec. One way is to be an expert in the field and write the spec based on your own personal knowledge.

Another is to go to a couple of possible sources and tell them what you want and ask them to tell you how to spec it. Compare the results, ask the companies to explain their reasoning then create a spec and ask them to bid the job.

I have personally created specifications satisfactorily using both of those
methods as well as combining them and working from both directions at the same time.
 
ed4copies said:
Smitty,

It appears Roy believes your topic has been covered.
Click to expand...
Roy is certainly entitled to his opinion, and he might be right. I never intended to "cover" the topic. Just pass along some information that I had run into. I really didn't expect to see any comments to speak of.
 
My reference to beating a dead horse was not your starting this thread but to the continued debate by some as to how much, how thin, how thick or how it's plated , plating should be when it should be how durable it is at the thickness or thinness it is plated .
Smitty37 said:
ed4copies said:
Smitty,

It appears Roy believes your topic has been covered.
Click to expand...
Roy is certainly entitled to his opinion, and he might be right. I never intended to "cover" the topic. Just pass along some information that I had run into. I really didn't expect to see any comments to speak of.
Click to expand...
 
OKLAHOMAN said:
plating should be when it should be how durable it is at the thickness or thinness it is plated .
Click to expand...

True, though as Smitty quite rightly pointed out its nice to know what lays beneath.

If i wanted to cut corners with my chrome and gold plating, i would do it straight onto brass/copper/bronze, it will plate perfectly providing its polished up well, and i would go as far to say i bet you couldnt spot the difference.

The issue here, is that after time the copper can leach through the plating and weathered looking spots will appear. brass also does this, but not as much as copper. The correct process would be to nickel plate the copper, then chrome or gold it not just because its a bright base, but because it prevents the copper base from leaching.

Plating black titanium is a little different,. you can use copper or nickel as your base depending on how you would like it to look. using copper with give you a darker look, whereas nickel will give you a smokey black looking finish.

dont be tempted with the DIY brush plating ktis they are no use to you. they are gret for small items when they are not handled but they give a very thin coat, even after 20 mins of brushing them and i can assure you that after spending 40 minutes brush plating your pen your arm will be very tired. tank plating can be left running for several hours, with the longer its left the thicker the coating will become. this of course can be varied by not only the PH of your electrolyte, but also the temperature of the bath....


Still... just a bit of info for you guys to chew over in your quest :cool:
 
I wish Berea would start offering Rhodium plating on their kits, then perhaps all of this bickering would go away! Then the vendors selling Berea kits could then agree with everyone else that Rhodium plating is pretty nice....... regardless of the plating thickness or who does the plating.
 
BradG said:
OKLAHOMAN said:
plating should be when it should be how durable it is at the thickness or thinness it is plated .
Click to expand...

True, though as Smitty quite rightly pointed out its nice to know what lays beneath.

If i wanted to cut corners with my chrome and gold plating, i would do it straight onto brass/copper/bronze, it will plate perfectly providing its polished up well, and i would go as far to say i bet you couldnt spot the difference.

The issue here, is that after time the copper can leach through the plating and weathered looking spots will appear. brass also does this, but not as much as copper. The correct process would be to nickel plate the copper, then chrome or gold it not just because its a bright base, but because it prevents the copper base from leaching.

Plating black titanium is a little different,. you can use copper or nickel as your base depending on how you would like it to look. using copper with give you a darker look, whereas nickel will give you a smokey black looking finish.

dont be tempted with the DIY brush plating ktis they are no use to you. they are gret for small items when they are not handled but they give a very thin coat, even after 20 mins of brushing them and i can assure you that after spending 40 minutes brush plating your pen your arm will be very tired. tank plating can be left running for several hours, with the longer its left the thicker the coating will become. this of course can be varied by not only the PH of your electrolyte, but also the temperature of the bath....


Still... just a bit of info for you guys to chew over in your quest :cool:
Click to expand...
As a matter of fact...gold is often plated directly to copper for many applications....we did it routinely for gold electronic connectors.
 
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That's a industrial application Smitty, copper leaching through would not be considered a major issue. There is a huge difference between what we are doing and industrial applications.......which is where most Rhodium gets used.

"For the record I think - but haven't checked this out for sure yet - that Gold TN and Black TN also are applied pretty thin and use a different process than typical plating. That because TN is not a metal it is a ceramic."

This is just flat wrong, Titanium (TN) is a basic element that falls firmly into the category metals. Ceramics are compounds made of several elements combined to produce a substance with unique properties, they range from the terracotta pot on the porch to the tiles in the space shuttle to durable coatings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium

My personal take on this........if 20-30 microns is the best coating I need to be able to pass that info along to my customers. Also I HATE when someone else makes me a liar! If the box says rhodium plate or gold plate I want to be able to trust that information and trust that it's worth the extra cost to me and my client. We sell a luxury product, I had better know it inside out when a customer asks! And IF a thinner plating is preferred I need to be able to explain why. More information about the product you sell, pens, cars or potatoes is NEVER a bad thing.

This and several other factors have led me to one conclusion, the 4 kits I have now are the last I will make without a special order! I have been practicing with aluminum and will be making my own "components" from here on. At least they will be mine, all original and I will know for sure what has or has not been done to them.
 
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Rick P said:
"For the record I think - but haven't checked this out for sure yet - that Gold TN and Black TN also are applied pretty thin and use a different process than typical plating. That because TN is not a metal it is a ceramic."

This is just flat wrong, Titanium (TN) is a basic element that falls firmly into the category metals. Ceramics are compounds made of several elements combined to produce a substance with unique properties, they range from the terracotta pot on the porch to the tiles in the space shuttle to durable coatings. Titanium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...

Rick - Titanium the element is Ti. TN is Titanium Nitride and is a ceramic:
Titanium nitride - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Rick P said:
That's a industrial application Smitty, copper leaching through would not be considered a major issue. There is a huge difference between what we are doing and industrial applications.......which is where most Rhodium gets used.

"For the record I think - but haven't checked this out for sure yet - that Gold TN and Black TN also are applied pretty thin and use a different process than typical plating. That because TN is not a metal it is a ceramic."

This is just flat wrong, Titanium (TN) is a basic element that falls firmly into the category metals. Ceramics are compounds made of several elements combined to produce a substance with unique properties, they range from the terracotta pot on the porch to the tiles in the space shuttle to durable coatings. Titanium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My personal take on this........if 20-30 microns is the best coating I need to be able to pass that info along to my customers. Also I HATE when someone else makes me a liar! If the box says rhodium plate or gold plate I want to be able to trust that information and trust that it's worth the extra cost to me and my client. We sell a luxury product, I had better know it inside out when a customer asks! And IF a thinner plating is preferred I need to be able to explain why. More information about the product you sell, pens, cars or potatoes is NEVER a bad thing.

This and several other factors have led me to one conclusion, the 4 kits I have now are the last I will make without a special order! I have been practicing with aluminum and will be making my own "components" from here on. At least they will be mine, all original and I will know for sure what has or has not been done to them.
Click to expand...
I agree completely - on pens we will probably see copper to adhere to the base than nickel to inhibit the leach through, then the gold on the nickel.

My apologies I used the wrong initials I should have said Ti...Titanium Nitride is what is used plating pens and it is a ceramic.

From Wikipedia: Titanium nitride (TiN) (sometimes known as "Tinite" or "TiNite" or "TiN") is an extremely hard ceramic material, often used as a coating on titanium alloys, steel, carbide, and aluminium components to improve the substrate's surface properties.
Applied as a thin coating, TiN is used to harden and protect cutting and sliding surfaces, for decorative purposes (due to its gold appearance), and as a non-toxic exterior for medical implants. In most applications a coating of less than 5 micrometres (0.00020 in) is applied.

Nothing wrong with that. I am going by information on websites but one day soon I will call one of those companies and ask them directly. They do give a reason on the web site.

Sounds like a good idea to me. You'll be joining some pretty good company in that. Constant is selling some unplated kits also Stainless Steel I think and I sell unplated Stainless Steel bottlestoppers.
 
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It's more the fact that its not really my work that has prompted my decision to switch to kitless......this aspect of it has bothered me from the first pen I turned and I find it FAR too limiting. The plating issues are just confirmation that I have made the right choice. Guess I am a bit of a control freak, I don't like half truths and calling a kit pen my art work feels a bit too much like just that.

I have several irons in the fire right now and I am catching up on my bowyering but look for some interesting desk pens soon.
 
I don't think anyone can fault you for that Rick. It needs to be what you are comfortable with.

I personally don't think of my pens as art, I look at them more as a craft and metalworking is not an area where I have ever done anything. In person, I've never even seen a metal lathe run.
 
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