question re: sanding and finishing blanks with metallic segments

[Painfullyslow]

I apologize if this is a silly question. I did a quick search but wasn't able to find an answer.

I have recently started with making segmented blanks and discovered that if I sand on the lathe, the dust from the aluminum segment bleeds into the surrounding material which looks, well, crappy.

I got around it by taking it down a hair more with a skew but the finish isn't as nice as I would like and then had to be really careful about sanding the surrounding parts of the blank.

So I guess the question is: is there some way around this issue, or do I just need to learn to use my skew better to end up with a better result?

 

[leehljp]

Yes, SANDING does that with metal on wood.

I use a technique that eliminates the sanding dust, period. I use a slightly radiused HSS scraper (of my own making). The current carbide inserts with a radius scraper will do the same. I will note that some insert types seem sharper than others, and in general cost more.

ANYWAY, these extra sharp scrapers (or a very very sharp skew laid flat on the tool rest) will gently scrap the smudges off clean. It works well on hard woods and well stabilized woods. The scrapers do not do well on soft woods though.

I shape my blanks (hard woods and stabilized woods) totally with this method. Metal in the segments do not smudge. Sharpness and gentle pressure is the key.

It also works well with red, black, and white woods used in segments that smear from sanding.

The first time I ran across this some years ago, I spent about an hour shaping, sharpening and honing my scraper and brought it to literally razor sharp. The first time it touched the metal dust smears, it was clear that I had found the solution. Most of the time, I do not use sandpaper anymore. With the extra sharp and a hone by my lathe, the turned blanks are smooth as a baby's bottom without the need for sandpaper, and I go straight to finishing. AND I do not settle for rough wood before finishing!

 

[Painfullyslow]

Yes, SANDING does that with metal on wood.

I use a technique that eliminates the sanding dust, period. I use a slightly radiused HSS scraper (of my own making). The current carbide inserts with a radius scraper will do the same. I will note that some insert types seem sharper than others, and in general cost more.

ANYWAY, these extra sharp scrapers (or a very very sharp skew laid flat on the tool rest) will gently scrap the smudges off clean. It works well on hard woods and well stabilized woods. The scrapers do not do well on soft woods though.

I shape my blanks (hard woods and stabilized woods) totally with this method. Metal in the segments do not smudge. Sharpness and gentle pressure is the key.

It also works well with red, black, and white woods used in segments that smear from sanding.

The first time I ran across this some years ago, I spent about an hour shaping, sharpening and honing my scraper and brought it to literally razor sharp. The first time it touched the metal dust smears, it was clear that I had found the solution. Most of the time, I do not use sandpaper anymore. With the extra sharp and a hone by my lathe, the turned blanks are smooth as a baby's bottom without the need for sandpaper, and I go straight to finishing. AND I do not settle for rough wood before finishing!

I appreciate the feedback! So it seems that the answer is that I need to get better using my tools

At this point I am still very new and do not have the necessary control to skip sanding. Looks like more practice, practice, practice...

 

[jttheclockman]

Yes you need to either learn to sharpen the skew more or learn to use it better. I do alot of metal and wood as well as mixed woods in my blanks and sanding is a no no. you should be able to get the blank to already for top coat finish with just the tool. Good luck.

 

[leehljp]

Practice, practice, practice!

Skip the practicing on a good looking blank to make into a pen and get a few pieces of hard wood and just start practicing to get the feel of tool feed back with the wood.

Those that learn to enjoy the journey will benefit greatly when they get to the destination.

OH, and practice sharpening if you have HSS tools.

 

[dogrunner]

I don't sand them

 

[egnald]

I have found that the sanding/smearing is certainly more of an issue with softer, lighter colored woods. I have not been able to detect any smearing/smudging of aluminum onto darker and harder woods like Ironwood and Cocobolo. I have heard of people applying a shellac based sanding sealer or thin CA as a preventative measure, but I have no actual experience with doing that.

Good Luck and Best Regards,
Dave

 

[jrista]

I apologize if this is a silly question. I did a quick search but wasn't able to find an answer.

I have recently started with making segmented blanks and discovered that if I sand on the lathe, the dust from the aluminum segment bleeds into the surrounding material which looks, well, crappy.

I got around it by taking it down a hair more with a skew but the finish isn't as nice as I would like and then had to be really careful about sanding the surrounding parts of the blank.

So I guess the question is: is there some way around this issue, or do I just need to learn to use my skew better to end up with a better result?

In addition to better tooling, something I found was useful on my own hybrid blanks was tack cloth, and cranking the air pressure up a bit on my compressor. The tack cloth gets most of it, pressure at the right angle to the grains capturing the metal dust helps loosen most of it.

I am still working on my tooling. I don't use CA, which I think for some hides the tool marks. So far, my tooling has never been the same as sanding to 2000-3000 grit or more. I have been able to use carbide tools in a bit of a sheer cutting angle to get segmented blanks pretty darn clean and smooth, but under closer examination with varying light, there are always tool marks visible at one angle or another. Sanding from 600 through 3000 grit completely eliminates any and all marks of any kind, allowing me to finish with Pens Plus or wipe on poly for that natural look. I don't think I'll ever be able to eliminate tool marks enough to support the kinds of finishes I use, so the tack cloth and air pressure are pretty much my only options to deal with the metal dust.

I actually had a bit of a problem with metal dust before I even got into segmenting. I have found that when I take my blanks out from between the bushings (I mostly use TBC bushings these days, but even with those, I usually take the bushings off and do final sanding and finishing just directly between centers), the brass tubes seem to shed a bit of dust in the final passes, and I found on a few pens that there was this gold sparkle unevenly distributed around the ends of the blanks. The only thing that really seemed to correct that was the above mentioned remedy.

 

[leehljp]

A few people get irritated at my posts but I will do it again:

30 Pieces of Silver

Elegant Beauty TI Gold Bloodwood, BOW, Holly core solder CA finish

www.penturners.org

Imported Photo from leehljp

Imported Photo from leehljp. Please edit title and description.

www.penturners.org

I challenge anyone to find tooling marks on mine. It is not rocket science. It is simply a little experience (practice on the fundamentals instead of trying to compete the steps to get a single pen done), SHARP tools and patience.
NO sanding on the wood. I did use sanding on the CA, but I built up enough CA at the beginning so that I would not sand through. Still NO sanding on the wood. WHAT THAT MEANS is there is no sanding dust what so ever.

No need to use cleaners, or tacky cloth or dust blowers etc. If one doesn't create sanding dust and then there is no need to clean it. It only took me one hour to learn to make dust free blanks before finishing.

And it was not done with a skew. If one is proficient with a skew, use it, but it is not necessary. An HSS scraper or radiused carbide insert that is very sharp - can do it also.

 

[jrista]

A few people get irritated at my posts but I will do it again:

30 Pieces of Silver

Elegant Beauty TI Gold Bloodwood, BOW, Holly core solder CA finish

www.penturners.org

Imported Photo from leehljp

Imported Photo from leehljp. Please edit title and description.

www.penturners.org

I challenge anyone to find tooling marks on mine. It is not rocket science. It is simply a little experience (practice on the fundamentals instead of trying to compete the steps to get a single pen done), SHARP tools and patience.
NO sanding on the wood. I did use sanding on the CA, but I built up enough CA at the beginning so that I would not sand through. Still NO sanding on the wood. WHAT THAT MEANS is there is no sanding dust what so ever.

No need to use cleaners, or tacky cloth or dust blowers etc. If one doesn't create sanding dust and then there is no need to clean it. It only took me one hour to learn to make dust free blanks before finishing.

And it was not done with a skew. If one is proficient with a skew, use it, but it is not necessary. An HSS scraper or radiused carbide insert that is very sharp - can do it also.

I'm pretty picky. Perfection is the expectation.

I would honestly need to see higher resolution images to say if I could see tooling marks (the two linked are too much compression and too small)...it may be that you have solved that problem, but I cannot tell. I've been at it for months (I think I first saw one of your posts about this back during summer last year when I started playing around with sheer scraping with carbide tools), and even with the lightest touch, I cannot get my wood surface to be as clean and smooth and mark-free as I can with sandpaper. I do think that with CA, you can hide what fine tool marks may still remain as well...and since I don't use CA, even the finest tool mark can become readily apparent in the right light.

 

[leehljp]

I'm pretty picky. Perfection is the expectation.

I would honestly need to see higher resolution images to say if I could see tooling marks (the two linked are too much compression and too small)...it may be that you have solved that problem, but I cannot tell. I've been at it for months (I think I first saw one of your posts about this back during summer last year when I started playing around with sheer scraping with carbide tools), and even with the lightest touch, I cannot get my wood surface to be as clean and smooth and mark-free as I can with sandpaper. I do think that with CA, you can hide what fine tool marks may still remain as well...and since I don't use CA, even the finest tool mark can become readily apparent in the right light.

Nit picky is the word. And there seems to be contradictions in your description - "mark-free as I can with sandpaper" - WHAT? Sand paper (even 1000 grit or higher) is mark free? But turning with razor shape tool is not? For scientific conclusions, that statement needs to be re-thought.

I would say that your problem with not being able to get a smooth blank with a tool is probably because you do not sharpen your own tools. Do you Hone your tools during the turning process of turning a hardwood or stabilized blank? If not, it comes back to what I alluded to earlier - there is more interest in getting a pen done than learning the process. Simply because it has been turned to the correct size doesn't mean that the process has been perfected. Perfection does include getting the most expensive carbide insert that is the sharpest one of all (and I say that tongue in cheek as some say they are as sharp as HSS, but I personally doubt it) Or learning to sharpen one's own tools to consistent razor sharpness, and keeping it sharp by honing it several times during the turning of a blank. Honing it several times during a turning takes an extra minute at the most, as it only takes a couple of swipes on each side to hone it each time. One honing takes about 10 literal seconds and keeps the edge razor sharp (Note - I said razor sharp, not razor blade thin shaped).

Unless you are doing that, no wonder you haven't achieved that level of smoothness. The fresh purchased tools, regardless of the price will carry you only so far. Technique and discipline in preparing the tool is required for nearing perfection. High quality electronic equipment in many industries have to be calibrated often for them to work properly, so does tool sharpening if one wants the best the tool can do, and that should not be underestimated.

 

[Painfullyslow]

again, I really appreciate the input of everyone here. I have a couple blanks curing which are more complicated hybrid blanks where sanding will likely be an impossibility so we will see how they turn out!

 

[jrista]

Nit picky is the word. And there seems to be contradictions in your description - "mark-free as I can with sandpaper" - WHAT? Sand paper (even 1000 grit or higher) is mark free? But turning with razor shape tool is not? For scientific conclusions, that statement needs to be re-thought.

I would say that your problem with not being able to get a smooth blank with a tool is probably because you do not sharpen your own tools. Do you Hone your tools during the turning process of turning a hardwood or stabilized blank? If not, it comes back to what I alluded to earlier - there is more interest in getting a pen done than learning the process. Simply because it has been turned to the correct size doesn't mean that the process has been perfected. Perfection does include getting the most expensive carbide insert that is the sharpest one of all (and I say that tongue in cheek as some say they are as sharp as HSS, but I personally doubt it) Or learning to sharpen one's own tools to consistent razor sharpness, and keeping it sharp by honing it several times during the turning of a blank. Honing it several times during a turning takes an extra minute at the most, as it only takes a couple of swipes on each side to hone it each time. One honing takes about 10 literal seconds and keeps the edge razor sharp (Note - I said razor sharp, not razor blade thin shaped).

Unless you are doing that, no wonder you haven't achieved that level of smoothness. The fresh purchased tools, regardless of the price will carry you only so far. Technique and discipline in preparing the tool is required for nearing perfection. High quality electronic equipment in many industries have to be calibrated often for them to work properly, so does tool sharpening if one wants the best the tool can do, and that should not be underestimated.

Of course I sharpen my own tools. I use CBN wheels for gouges and the like, and I have a series of diamond honing plates for all my carbide tips (among other things). I ONLY work with sharp tools. Can't stand working with dull tools. One of the very first things I did, back in 2020 when I first started turning, was ditch the aluminum oxide wheels on my grinder and get CBN. I also installed a complete sharpening system to help me get optimal edges and bevels, at optimal angles, all that. I sharpen my tools multiple times per project...and the bigger the bowl or vase, the more times I tend to sharpen. I sharpen my tools several times per pen as well...with gouges, once at the start, and usually once part way through. I tend to do final turning with EWT tools. I actually have a bunch EWT tools (including three different round) that I can just switch through as I'm turning to quickly get a sharp tool. I've got a radial rack to hold all my tools attached directly to the lathe as well...so swapping tools is momentary.

So yes, I work with sharp tools. Sharpness isn't the problem. I sand up to 3000 grit or beyond, and the end result is tool mark free (i.e. no ridges and valleys, large scale or small). There are "scratches", but when we are talking about a scale of a few microns, its a whole different story than what I'm talking about with regards to tool marks. Controlling the tool, which tends to contact the blank at only a small point, is different than controlling sandpaper, which can contact the blank over a large area. So yes, I do believe there is a difference between tooling marks, and sandpaper scratches. Tools cut the wood (and if used wrong, they can tear the wood, such as when used in a scraping position)...sandpaper scratches the wood. They are different processes. Different results. One produces marks, the other produces scratches. Hence my use of the term "mark-free"...

 

[leehljp]

Jon, are you familiar with these:https://www.amazon.com/s?k=scrapers+for+woodwork&crid=204VOJVJK82R2&sprefix=scrapers+for,aps,119&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_3_12

They may leave "marks" as you mention but not ones you can see with the naked eye. No scratches either. You and I must live on different planets. I use my scraper tool to get all of the ridges and valleys out and smooth it finer than sandpaper can get it, and, as the purpose of the OP, NO Sanding Dust to boot!

BTW, sharpening multiple times for a pen is not necessary, but honing several times is beneficial.

 

[jrista]

Jon, are you familiar with these:https://www.amazon.com/s?k=scrapers+for+woodwork&crid=204VOJVJK82R2&sprefix=scrapers+for,aps,119&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_3_12

They may leave "marks" as you mention but not ones you can see with the naked eye. No scratches.

BTW, sharpening multiple times for a pen is not necessary, but honing several times is beneficial.

I have not used those before... I have seen them when browsing for other tools, but I've never used one. Is this what you use?

As for sharpening, I guess it depends on the material. I probably switch ETW tools (which I use exclusively with resins) a couple times with resins. Sometimes, I guess its more for shape than anything...and I mostly use them in a sheer scraping mode, although some resins seem to work better with negative rake.

For wood, I guess it may depend on the hardness. If I'm turning lugnum vitae for example, I'll probably sharpen a gouge once at the beginning, and again when I'm getting the rough final shape. That super sharp edge you get right off the CBN wheel doesn't last long, but as long as it lasts, you can cut through wood like butter... FWIW, most of that interim sharpening doesn't take long...slip the tool into a jig, give it a few swipes against the wheel (which should already be set from the initial sharpening), and get back to turning.

With the EWT tools, I do switch between a large and small round tip, and I've also got a negative rake one, as they all handle a little differently. I would also say, I don't necessarily sharpen the carbide tips each pen. I will, however, usually rotate the tip a bit. I use a marker to mark where I'm at in the rotation, before I swap a tip out. For normal tips, I keep them and sharpen them with the honing plates.

Perhaps with the cabinet scrapers, none of that would be necessary? I guess that is where I get skeptical...outside of negative rake scraping, which I'll often do with my bowls and vases and the like to clean up the surface of the wood, its very delicate work, and scraping can very easily tear out the wood... I am also usually not as concerned about getting the same kind of smooth finish with a big bowl, or platter, etc. as I am with a tiny pen.

 

[leehljp]

Is that what I use? No, but those do have a burr that scrapes wood (flat wood) smoother than sandpaper does. Professionals who use those do not use sandpaper nearly as much, if at all.

I use a couple of home made scrapers mostly. I took two scrapers similar to this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Hurricane-Turning-Tools-Woodturning-Scraper/dp/B008B86D5O/ref=sr_1_9?crid=2HENM7JXCW39C&keywords=wood+lathe+scraper+tools&qid=1647996147&sprefix=wood+lathe+scraper%2Caps%2C94&sr=8-9

Then I ground the round ends off to roughly square (looking down from the top) and then put a radiused edge similar to what carbide radiused edge inserts do, only I made mine about 15 years ago before carbide inserts came out - when I lived in Japan. I made one that was slightly angled right and one slightly angled left to be able to get into corners or sneak up on edges. I'll try to get a picture of them soon. I had a good (master) teacher when I lived in Osaka on how to sharpen tools by hand to mirror smooth and razor sharp. That is why I mention tools without scratch marks.

 

[jrista]

Is that what I use? No, but those do have a burr that scrapes wood (flat wood) smoother than sandpaper does. Professionals who use those do not use sandpaper nearly as much, if at all.

I use a couple of home made scrapers mostly. I took two scrapers similar to this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Hurricane-Turning-Tools-Woodturning-Scraper/dp/B008B86D5O/ref=sr_1_9?crid=2HENM7JXCW39C&keywords=wood+lathe+scraper+tools&qid=1647996147&sprefix=wood+lathe+scraper%2Caps%2C94&sr=8-9

Then I ground the round ends off to roughly square (looking down from the top) and then put a radiused edge similar to what carbide radiused edge inserts do, only I made mine about 15 years ago before carbide inserts came out - when I lived in Japan. I made one that was slightly angled right and one slightly angled left to be able to get into corners or sneak up on edges. I'll try to get a picture of them soon. I had a good (master) teacher when I lived in Osaka on how to sharpen tools by hand to mirror smooth and razor sharp. That is why I mention tools without scratch marks.

Well, I can't say that I get my tools mirror sharp... My brother does wood carving, and he has some leather strops he uses to get his tools to pretty much a mirror finish.

I actually have a couple of those Hurricane scrapers. One of them I ground into a negative rake. I also have one of those burnishing tools, like the one included with one of the cabinet scraper kits you linked to. I use the burnishing tool to put a burr on my scrapers for doing those final cleanup passes on larger turned items. That burr doesn't last long at all, but it does give me those super fine shavings that almost float off the wood. Even with that, though...I've never been able to get my bowls or platters and the like as...smooth...I guess that isn't necessarily a fully descriptive word, but...devoid of little hills and valleys. Even with the scrapers, the profile of the surface is never as good as I can get it with sanding. I generally use the scrapers so I can start with higher grit sandapaper...I really hate using lower grid papers, even 180 grit sometimes gives me trouble with scratches I can't remove, so if I can start higher than that, the better.

I'd like to see some photos of your tools...curious to see what the differences are.

 

[leehljp]

I will try to get a photo of my lathe scraper tool this week end and post it. They are not "Hurricane" tools, as they are of Taiwanese-Japanese origin many years ago. And as being a lathe tool, I do not put a burr on them.

My problem with photos over the past 10 years is that I gave my Japanese SLR camera to my daughter back then, and phone cameras do not provide the detail that the SLRs can do. And I hate showing mediocre photos.

 

[jrista]

My problem with photos over the past 10 years is that I gave my Japanese SLR camera to my daughter back then, and phone cameras do not provide the detail that the SLRs can do. And I hate showing mediocre photos.

I hear that! I'm not much of a phone photo guy myself...I was a hardcore DSLR guy for a long time. Finally started using mirrorless the last couple years, and now have an EOS R5, which feels like a DSLR but is still mirrorless. Only way to go, IMO!