Putting a value on your time...

[Herb G]

This is NOT another "What to charge" thread. If you read on, you will see that. So, please read thru before responding. I will try to lay this out in as coherent a manner as I can.
I had an idea from all the "What to charge" threads, but this one goes a little further that just pen making.
Many of us on this site are artists in your own right.
Your art has value. Creating that art takes time, and that time in itself has value too. I realize a lot of us do pen turning as a hobby. If you happen to make a few bucks selling a pen to cover the expense of the materials, that's all fine & well.
But, some of us make pens to supplement or even generate a living income.
Now, I don't have any hard numbers to support my ideas, but I would hazard to guess there are not a lot of professional pen turners in the world.

A great number of people in this community also makes other items as well.
For example, I do leather work. I make custom made leather items from scratch. I don't make a lot of it these days, due to arthritis in my hands & spine. It takes a great deal of hand work to craft leather into useful items.

I value my time as much as anybody. Where I have a hard time is when someone asks me to craft them a handmade custom item, then balk at my prices. I tell them I don't work for free. For instance, I made a custom made leather portfolio that had over 350 hours of my time in it.

I made it as a gift for my mother. She used it to carry her papers to work.
Someone asked her where she got it, and she told them I made it.
They were interested in having one made until I gave them a fair price for it. Their reply was "I can buy one just like it at XYZ store for such & such money." My Mom replied, "If that's the case, I'll take half a dozen."

I believe the problem lies within the fact that we as a society have become used to cheap prices. Everything these days is disposable.
Nothing is held in high regard anymore. At least, not from what I'm seeing.
If it's not fast, cheap, and here in 2 days, we're not interested in buying it.
I believe that's lowered our expectations to a dangerous level too.

If we don't care about quality, manufacturers take notice & start churning out junk. If we don't care, believe me, they don't either.
All they care about is making a fast buck.
I get it. I understand the American way, trust me on that. Make a fast buck, then on to some other cheap junk to sell next. When was the last time you had a coffee pot that lasted more than a year? A pair of jeans that lasted more than 2-3 years?
A pair of decent, well fitting, comfortable shoes that lasted you long enough to actually wear out? See where I'm going with this?

So, finally to the question at hand. How do you place a value on YOU?
You are a valuable commodity, just like gold, silver, or oil.
Your time is valuable, and so are your skills.
How do you place a value on you?

I use a basic formula of time + skill + materials + difficulty = value.
Don't forget to add 40% of the total for profit. 40% ??? Yes, 40% !!!
If you knew what corporate America was making in profit every day, it would shock you. Does a new pickup truck really cost $55K ?
No. $35K of that is pure profit.

Now, I am not advocating ripping someone off for as much as you can because you'll probably never see them again. But if your customer sees value in what you're selling, and they feel they got a good deal, they are more likely to tell someone else about it.
Word of mouth is the best free advertising out there.
Just do not make the mistake of selling yourself short.

What I am advocating is placing a fair price on YOU.
No one else can do exactly what you do.
No one else has your specific skill set, nor do they have your ideas & thoughts.
I realize this has drifted here & there.
I hope it makes sense.

So, back to the question at hand.
How do you place a value on YOU?


Thanks for reading.
C & C are welcomed.

 

[ZbR]

Dear Herb G, excellent comment, I fully subscribe to your analysis.
Nowadays, not only in the US but in Europe as well, everything should be cheap and quickly disposable since it supports companies profit and GNP rise.
Human skills are less and less valued, they are called "human resources" and are on the same level of importance as natural resources or machinery.
Very sad, but there are still some small areas like individual pen making or antique restoration (what I do) where specific personal skills and experience play important role and yes, you are right, we should expect them be valued appropriately.

Zbigniew

 

[Woodchipper]

I must be living right. I have clothes and shoes that are older than I care to mention. I have never been hard on clothes and shoes even as a kid. Yes, we live in a disposable society. I had a camera that wouldn't work properly. It was going to cost $100 to fix it. The camera cost $85 new with case and tabletop tripod. Recall when VCRs went from $400 down to about $50?
Value of time and what to charge can be two different things.

 

[Talltim]

In my opinion, time is the most valuable part of any formula. It is the one part that cannot be replaced. I can buy more kits, more blanks etc. but I cannot get more time. Every individual has a limited supply. Why should I trade it off for nothing.





-------------------------
"Good enough is the enemy of great."

Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app

 

[eharri446]

Great post. I would like to be able to retire and spend a lot more time in the shop, however, I am still working full time even though I am drawing my full social security payment.

 

[ed4copies]

Interesting thing about arts and crafts: YOU have to convince YOUR customer of the value of YOUR product. If you tell them the materials are $20 and your time is $30, you will have to convince them of the value they are receiving for your time.

If you just tell them you have a beautiful writing instrument, that is hand-made from the finest of materials ("precious resin", if you are Mont Blanc) and they can own the item for only $50, I predict you will have better success. LOW price does NOT sell luxury items, perceived VALUE does.

So, read a few books on selling---learn what FAB means and how you can apply it to YOUR art. Then be certain you are selling where your prospects can AFFORD to buy!! The internet provides numerous sites that will give the demographics of nearly any town/county in the US--go where the money is.

WHAT YOU THINK YOUR TIME IS WORTH IS IMMATERIAL!!! WHAT YOU CAN CONVINCE YOUR PROSPECT IS THE VALUE OF YOUR "PENS" IS ALL THAT MATTERS.

Good luck!!

Ed
(Salesman for over 40 years)

 

[Curly]

I value my time the same as an employer would pay me. Since my last job paid me about $39 an hour on the afternoon shift that's what I want for my time, including telephone polls and surveys. Why bother working for less than you can get working for an employer that also pays benefits etc., on top of your pay? If your artistry can't support you nicely then it is just a hobby you do for yourself.

You owe me $3.25 for this.

 

[EBorraga]

Perceived value is always different. I do a lot of mechanic work out of my garage on the weekends. The normal labor rate in my area is $115.00 an hour. I charge $55.00 an hour for 90% of the work I do. I have a labor guide which I price everything off of. I think I offer a fair price and do good work. I also pick and choose what I want to work on. If people want to bicker about the price, I kindly show them to the door and decline to work on their vehicle.

 

[MikeUT]

The great thing about capitalism is that there can be a different product for every demand. I like to complain about our disposable society as much as the next guy. I place a high value on quality, aesthetics, and craftsmanship. The thought of assembling IKEA furniture or using a bic pen feels as wrong as punching a puppy...

It is important to remember that mass production is a huge factor in how we are able to maintain our standard of living. It is actually a great thing that someone can buy a shirt for a few bucks and a pen for a few pennies if they want to. If custom handmade pens were the only option, a lot of people would have to choose between buying a pen and buying food.

We aren't the only ones who value their time. A client pays you with money that they sacrificed their valuable time to earn. They aren't trying to diminish the value of your time, they are trying to maximize the value of their's.

Sorry, I will get off my soapbox. I'm brand new to the site, I probably should have waited a while before I started preaching...

 

[dogcatcher]

My prices are based on cost of materials plus my time. If you are slow or not experienced at what you are making and selling your hourly rate should be reduced to reflect that. At one show a another callmaker told me my prices were to low, that it would take him an hour to make a call that I make make in about 15 minutes. He makes his calls one at a time, I make 24 or 36 at a time.

 

[Woodturning Vet]

I'm a disabled veteran and learned last year that turning wood is a great distraction from my disabilities. Its the best therapy I've had in twenty five years and has been more effective than any pill that has been prescribed. I spend as much time as I can in the shop and much of that time is spent turning. Eventually though I found that I had too many bowls, platters and hollow forms cluttering the house and not enough friends to give them too. A few times a year I help my neighbor out at craft fairs and he lets me bring my stuff to sell as well. For me the value in my time isn't measured by money but the peace and comfort I get when turning. So I don't price my stuff to sell at maximum dollar nor do I price it so low that I'm giving it away. I price it so that it will sell and so that I make enough to buy more sandpaper, finishes and other supplies with a little extra to pad my shop funds. At the end of the craft fair I'm always happy to see people walk away with a quality and beautiful bowl and for me to have more room in the house, at least for a while. I appreciate the effort and time we all put into our work and fully understand that for many this is a business and a means to make ends meet. Even though I live at the poverty level and would love nothing more than to have a few extra dollars, for me my time spent turning (and thus the peace it brings me) is much more valuable than trying to maximize dollars. This craft fair I helped at last weekend was in a small depressed little town so maximizing dollars for my time wouldn't have been practical anyway.

 

[thewishman]

We aren't the only ones who value their time. A client pays you with money that they sacrificed their valuable time to earn. They aren't trying to diminish the value of your time, they are trying to maximize the value of their's.

Good point, Mike. I shop around for the best price I can get when spending my money - who doesn't? I do way too much research on many of the things I buy, then spend more time looking for the right deal.

I make things that are interesting to a certain part of the market. I try to make items that cannot be easily compared to similar items, I don't want to make pens that can be compared to Bics. If you just want a pen to use and discard - I don't care about you because you will never be my customer.

My customers purchase my pens because the materials are interesting and/or beautiful. And since most of my pens are then resold at retail, my customers multiply my price between 2.5 - 3 times.

If people don't want to pay your price, move on. Figure out who has the money to pay your price, figure out what they like - whether it be Vacheron Constantin watch dials or cat poo - make pens for them.

It helps to have a nice variety of materials to show potential customers, sometimes you just need to spark their imagination. Once they start dreaming up pen ideas, you have a solid and repeat client.

Charging a dollar amount for labor limits your potential to how many hours you can work. In a commodity market (Bics or dog biscuits) pricing has to be competitive to make sales. With more than 10 years of experience, I work 3 or 4 times faster than a new turner. Should his price be higher on an identical item, because he has more time in it?

 

[Scissortail Pens]

It's not your time, it's your skill that they're paying for. Forget about the time. I used to get into arguments with people constantly about this. If it was just about time, then anyone could do it. Yet, you or I, are the one with the skill set. It's about the skill. Yes, time will factor into it, because people are paying for time it takes for us to use our skills. It's the skill, knowledge and tools that they're paying for, not the time. Let's say that someone comes along and sees a really pretty slimline that you've made and are charging $45.00 for. They see it and say, well, that couldn't be that hard to do, I'll just make my own. They spend the next six months or year, gathering the tools and the knowledge to make that pen, exactly as they saw. Do they get to charge for the entire time that they spent to make that one pen that it took one of us a couple hours from start to finish? If it was just about time, then they should be able to charge a few grand for that pen. Yes, time does figure into it, in that, we're spending our time practicing our skill. That's where it all comes together.

 

[NVSB4]

While there are a lot of good threads and ideas going through this post, perceived value, quality and craftsmanship are two that stick out to me the most.
I've always said, something is worth only as much as someone is willing to pay for it.
Sure, there is a lot of "sticker shock" on handmade items, but the realization is that they are that, handmade, and not churned out by a machine (and most times using inferior products).
I'm not to the point yet of selling anything that I've turned, but have done other carpentry & woodworking for over 50 years. I still get looks about cost from the wife when she asks me to build something for her (and that's just for the materials). I won't build anything from plywood or particleboard, so good lumber is going to be more expensive.
One of the big buzzwords right now is Artisan. It's amazing how much more people will pay with that moniker.
We just need to list our merchandise as "Artisan" or "Organic" and probably get less push back. :redface:

 

[Woodturning Vet]

It's not your time, it's your skill that they're paying for..............

In thinking back at the craft fair from four days ago, I heard a lot of people say "you're very talented" or "this is absolutely beautiful" and so on. A ton of compliments recognizing and appreciating the skill and talent that went into each piece. These are the people that bought my bowls and other turnings. Of course there were people that picked items up and looked at the price tags and kept walking, never a compliment out of their mouths. There are people that recognize talent and skill and appreciate the effort that was put into a hand made product just as there are people that, as previously mentioned, just want a Bic.

 

[TonyL]

I sell merely as a hobbyist..so perhaps my answer is illegitimate. I don't place a value on my time when turning pens for sale (I use a 3 to 5 times cost of materials because it seems to correlate somewhat with what I see pens sold on Etsy, shows, etc.). However, I do value how and where I spend my time by prioritizing how and where I want to spend it. I doubt this approach would make me a profitable pen turner, but that is not my goal.

 

[leehljp]

Putting a value on your time . . .

This is a strong consideration and constant thinking point for me - Not that I consider myself to be "special" or "all about me", but that if I had my "druthers" I would opt for a 10 day week of 30 hours in each day to get the things done that I need to do or get requests to do. (I need more time in my days, or days in a week.) But the Lord declared 7 days and I defer to Him. :biggrin:

When it comes to pen turning and making pens, that is my relaxation and creative moments. I do sell a few, but I hate to take orders because it becomes "work". That said, the pen that people want the most is the ones that take the longest to make - 4 to 5 hours of solid hands on work with 48 hours of set up, clamps, curing and drying. Artistic value is a major consideration. Time is a consideration. This pen garnered $500 in Japan with ease, would get similar in certain markets world wide, but be lucky to find one $75 buyer in a depressed generational poverty area of the south where I live. It is not worth it to spend that much time for $75. I would rather give it away as a gift, rather send a signal that my time is worth $5 an hour. I don't get much "relax" time or wife time or daughter time. I put family, work/church time ahead of pen making. Someone who wants a special pen, they must make it worthwhile for me to break away from the other two priorities. So, my time is valuable.

2nd lessor but important reason: For me, it is not that I want more money, it is that so many people demand cheap prices for quality work and then pride themselves of taking advantage of you. In one area, I have to disagree with Ed - it is not about the perceived value, because for some people it is about how much they can "bargain", and that is the core and essence of their buying. Buying is a chess game with them that they hate to lose. I don't really care if they lose. I don't need to make a pen that bad.

Coming from the other direction: Sam Maloof whose rocking chairs started at $25,000 would occasionally give one away to an admirer who could not afford it, but he kept his chairs priced at $25,000 for a while. One story I read somewhere was that he originally sold his chairs for something like $5000 only to find that a few of his buyers were re-selling them for something like $10,000. Then he raised his price to $10,000 and a few of the buyers would re-sell for $15,000. He didn't like that re-selling, so the price finally went up to deal out the buyers acting as middle-men. Today those chairs are worth even more.
. . . For a few talented "art" makers, there is a point where value of time is not up to what the market will stand or operate at. For THIS thread, the point is on "is it worth your time" for what you do?

For me: If someone wants my work which is a hobby that I do in my spare time, I tell them it will be "x" number of months before I can do it. When they want it "now" the price goes up considerably. A few people call on me, even with that attitude, because they know they will get quality work that doesn't need to be re-done.

I put a value on my time and I put VALUE INTO my work.

 

[firewhatfire]

Heck I charge by how aggravated I get while making the item.

 

[TonyL]

Funny^

 

[thewishman]

Heck I charge by how aggravated I get while making the item.

In that case, I have some pens that should be priced at over $1,000,000!

 

[gtriever]

My shop time used to be scaled:

If I work on it - - 45.00/hr
If you want to watch me work on it - - 75.00/hr
If you want to help me work on it - - You probably can't afford it.

Since I'm retired, a novice at pen making, and doing this for my own enjoyment, I don't really price my time anymore. However, I still insist on being fairly compensated for my creative work. Degree of Difficulty means as much if not more than cost of materials.

 

[studioseven]

I'd like to chime in with my perspective. Some talented pro athletes earn $50000 per game. Other not so talented athletes still make more than a million for the season. A starting cardiac surgeon earns approximately $150000 per year (per google). High School and Elementary teachers are making in the range of $25 per hour. Janitors and fast food employees barely minimum wage. Where do wood turners fall in this range?

Seven

 

[Woodchipper]

This has been interesting to view. We ha a demo at our WWing club last year. The fellow makes beautiful bowls. The question was inevitable- What do you charge? His answer? $1 per minute of time from start to finish.
Sign in auto dealer service department (45 years ago)-
Shop rate- $25 per hour
If you watch- $50 per hour
If you help- $100 per hour