Pros and cons of commission work?

[PatrickR]

I have been avoiding doing any commission pens. Mostly based on my experiences in the sign industry, where most of the work would be considered commission. There are a lot of rabbit holes and time spent that is hard to recoup.
What have been your experiences with commission pens and the clients? Do you spend a lot of time upfront before making their pen? Do you end up having to send a lot of images to nail down options etc?
TYIA.

 

[InkyMike]

.I've done commissions but only offering options around blanks and some of the hardware - type, nib sizes, etc. Mind you I've used kits, so that falls squarely under the "custom" category here.

I suspect with kitless there are a lot more rabbit holes to chase in terms of dimensions and what not.

 

[Kenny Durrant]

I've done a few. I'm up front with what I can and can't do. I also stress that I'm retired and DO NOT want another job. I don't do well under stress so I avoid a tight time line. After saying that it's all been good.

 

[PatrickR]

I've done a few. I'm up front with what I can and can't do. I also stress that I'm retired and DO NOT want another job. I don't do well under stress so I avoid a tight time line. After saying that it's all been good.

I have see reports of problems that mostly involve poor business practice. Over promising, over booking and slow completion times due to life circumstances, also not requiring a deposit, leading to people commissioning from more than one maker and then only buying the first one complete.
working without a deposit is a deal killer for me.
That said commission work appears to be a large part of selling kitless/bespoke fountain pens.

 

[jalbert]

Did it for a while, decided I hated it, now I don't do it…with the exception of requests from a few friends. If you want to try commissions, set limits on what you're willing to do. People will come at you with all sorts of requests and it's not worth getting talked into something you really don't want do or end up not being able to do.

 

[PatrickR]

Did it for a while, decided I hated it, now I don't do it…with the exception of requests from a few friends. If you want to try commissions, set limits on what you're willing to do. People will come at you with all sorts of requests and it's not worth getting talked into something you really don't want do or end up not being able to do.

I mentioned my sign business experience, in that i found most people have trouble visualizing and or communicating their wishes until shown, or find that what they thought would look good doesn't until shown.. thus the rabbit hole. And I'd be the first to say I produced a lot of work that seemed to please the customer but I would never put my name on.

 

[Drewby108]

Not for pens specifically, but I've done some commissions on other projects. I very much want guided artistic expression, so I will do a sit down with the person and get their idea as much as I can along with needed and ideal elements wanted from the final product. I'll usually hyperfocus on ideas, forget about the project for a couple months, drag my feet for another, then realize they had a deadline and I have five days to draft and build a product. Then I feel guilty that I could have done better if I managed time better and don't charge half of what the piece is worth.

Point is, if you can keep track of your time and the value of that time (vague idea conception while watching tv is hardly work to me compared to actual woodwork), then it'll make charging for work much easier. I will keep failed attempts if I need to justify a cost for some complicated feature taking forever.

I don't have experience with pen commissions, but I really can't see that much of a difference.

 

[its_virgil]

.I've done commissions but only offering options around blanks and some of the hardware - type, nib sizes, etc. Mind you I've used kits, so that falls squarely under the "custom" category here.

I suspect with kitless there are a lot more rabbit holes to chase in terms of dimensions and what not.

Define "custom" category vs "commission" category. Inquiring minds want to know.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

 

[gbpens]

I have done several over the years. Each one has been a challenge often forcing me to use new techniques, find new suppliers or come up with a new approach. Headaches, yes but in the long run they were worth it. We often learn the most by doing what we do not know how to do.

 

[InkyMike]

Define "custom" category vs "commission" category. Inquiring minds want to know.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

Don
I was just clarifying that my experience was customizing kit pens, not kit-less. There is obviously a difference in steps and work between a commission for a kit pen vs. a kit-less pen. I was just reflecting my experience as accurately as I could.

 

[PatrickR]

Not for pens specifically, but I've done some commissions on other projects. I very much want guided artistic expression, so I will do a sit down with the person and get their idea as much as I can along with needed and ideal elements wanted from the final product. I'll usually hyperfocus on ideas, forget about the project for a couple months, drag my feet for another, then realize they had a deadline and I have five days to draft and build a product. Then I feel guilty that I could have done better if I managed time better and don't charge half of what the piece is worth.

Point is, if you can keep track of your time and the value of that time (vague idea conception while watching tv is hardly work to me compared to actual woodwork), then it'll make charging for work much easier. I will keep failed attempts if I need to justify a cost for some complicated feature taking forever.

I don't have experience with pen commissions, but I really can't see that much of a difference.

in my previous life everything was time sensitive. after meeting with the client I would get them something as fast as possible, knowing that once seen it would change, potentially many times and the end product might only vaguely resemble what had been communicated originally.
i am big on time studies. Without them you cant be sure how much you are making. That's the rub, it's a difficult conversation when something cost more than estimated due to the time spent up front. I'm sure that some clients would know exactly what they want and stick to it but don't know what percent that would be in the custom pen market.

 

[PatrickR]

I have done several over the years. Each one has been a challenge often forcing me to use new techniques, find new suppliers or come up with a new approach. Headaches, yes but in the long run they were worth it. We often learn the most by doing what we do not know how to do.

I do a good enough job myself of pushing my skills forward, often with failures. If I took commissions it would be to make a profit on each pen which could lead to turning down quite a few and that could be alienating.

 

[PatrickR]

One other thing I had seen talked about was request to make a pen based on a well know commercial model. I would have an issue with that, I wont replicate other pens, commercial or not.

 

[Drewby108]

in my previous life everything was time sensitive. after meeting with the client I would get them something as fast as possible, knowing that once seen it would change, potentially many times and the end product might only vaguely resemble what had been communicated originally.
i am big on time studies. Without them you cant be sure how much you are making. That's the rub, it's a difficult conversation when something cost more than estimated due to the time spent up front. I'm sure that some clients would know exactly what they want and stick to it but don't know what percent that would be in the custom pen market.

Fair enough. That might be a situation where you figure out a challenge for yourself, then time how long each area takes you. That way you could have an idea of what your cost range might be for somebody else's specific order. Obviously, multiple projects will only aid in finding your average.

The fact that we're talking about pens helps because you more than likely won't have huge outliers from normal processes of making the pen, just the conceptual and specialty operations.

 

[its_virgil]

When making a special order pen, a commission if you will, or a custom pen, which is the same be it a kitless or a kit pen the customer must be made aware that time spent on the phone, answering emails, or sourcing the required materials is time that must be billed to them. Once they know that they will be billed for our total time (sourcing and making) the selection time is most often reduced to a reasonable amount...choices will be made quickly and efficiently. How many of us price our pens on an hourly rate? Not 2 or 3 or 4 times the cost of material but an honest hourly rate with overhead costs (sanding paper, finishing supplies, utilities, etc): a true business model?

I've wondered about calling a special order or custom pen a commission. Does it sound better? Can we charge more for a commission vs a custom pen? Just some thoughts about which I've been thinking.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

 

[leehljp]

When making a special order pen, a commission if you will, or a custom pen, which is the same be it a kitless or a kit pen the customer must be made aware that time spent on the phone, answering emails, or sourcing the required materials is time that must be billed to them. Once they know that they will be billed for our total time (sourcing and making) the selection time is most often reduced to a reasonable amount...choices will be made quickly and efficiently. How many of us price our pens on an hourly rate? Not 2 or 3 or 4 times the cost of material but an honest hourly rate with overhead costs (sanding paper, finishing supplies, utilities, etc): a true business model?

I've wondered about calling a special order or custom pen a commission. Does it sound better? Can we charge more for a commission vs a custom pen? Just some thoughts about which I've been thinking.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

Thanks Don, for this information. I thought I was the only one that thought like this.

 

[PatrickR]

When making a special order pen, a commission if you will, or a custom pen, which is the same be it a kitless or a kit pen the customer must be made aware that time spent on the phone, answering emails, or sourcing the required materials is time that must be billed to them. Once they know that they will be billed for our total time (sourcing and making) the selection time is most often reduced to a reasonable amount...choices will be made quickly and efficiently. How many of us price our pens on an hourly rate? Not 2 or 3 or 4 times the cost of material but an honest hourly rate with overhead costs (sanding paper, finishing supplies, utilities, etc): a true business model?

I've wondered about calling a special order or custom pen a commission. Does it sound better? Can we charge more for a commission vs a custom pen? Just some thoughts about which I've been thinking.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

I do price by the hour + materials +mark-up. Whenever I make a pen that requires much change from what I have already done a time study on, I do a new one. A true commission pen by nature should have a higher price (In the kitless realm potentially a much higher price). From previous experience with custom work even if you tell people that they are "on the clock" it seldom speeds up the process. One of the first questions will always be "How much" and then act surprised when the final number is reached.

I was hopeful that someone would chime in with a "I do a lot of them and rarely have any issues" unless some do I will probably stay the course.

 

[dogcatcher]

I don't do pens on special order. But I do make a lot of special order game calls. Usually the request is fi or a certain species of wood or predator calls with different rabbit distress sounds.

I sell them for basically the same cost as my standard calls. My cost is about $1 in materials. My time? That is questionable, because the special orders are usually from very special people. But usually less than hour.

 

[derekdd]

I'm doing some custom orders but am limiting the pen types/kits, and blanks. If a fountain or rollerball, I give them 3-4 different styles and let them pick. Same with blanks. I have a bunch of exotics laying around, some acrylics, and hybrid wood/resin blanks.

If people want to buy their own blanks and ship them to me, I'm fine with that. Had a guy recently send me an exhibition grade koa blank for a fountain pen. Turned out very well.

I don't want to have to buy bushings for a couple of dozen specialty pens only a small number of folks are interested in, hence my limit to a few styles.

 

[leehljp]

I will add another criteria to pricing that I do use at times: Artistic quality or the aesthetics of a few pens - that greatly increases the pricing. Every once in a while a pen has such beauty that it stands out from other well made pens. The artistic value and perfect fittings/jointery puts it into another category. (Beware - there are some who think every pen they make fits into this category ) But even with perfection in fitting and finish, there is the one that just stands out from the others.

Pricing - if a computer company can charge $50 - $75+ an hour to work on my computer, - if my pens have those perfect matings in fittings and an excellent choice of material has been made, my work is worth at least that pricing of a computer repair company. It is not that I will charge that as a matter of fact, but that it is not worth it to me to make one for less. Then, if the artistic/aesthetics show forth on a particular pen, then it gets a boost in price in addition to its hourly and material cost.

I have made a few pens that stand out even though all that I make - have the same fit and finish (I use calipers and micrometers for measuring and fitting, even after adding the finish). For instance in performing a marriage ceremony, and the couple wants to sign their wedding license, I usually carry one of the pens that stands out. Then after the ceremony, a number of people will come forward and ask about that pen. Does the beauty of the pen say: "hold me", "look at me" and draw people from 20 to 50 feet away? It is these that I add an artistic value in pricing.

Pen making has come a long way from when I joined in '05. There are some "standout" beautiful pens shown on this forum that to me - put themselves into the Artistic/Aesthetic Value over and above normal methods of determining the pricing.

 

[Madman1978]

For myself, I rather do "Custom" work. What I think will look great and buyers might find it not so much. It makes things a bit easier for me in the long run and I do not have to carry all kinds of finished inventory.

 

[RunnerVince]

I do custom wands, and I often find customers' imaginations are much more vivid than reality allows for. I just make sure to be honest about my abilities, workload, turnaround times, etc.

I've generally had good experiences. I always think if I was ordering a custom wand, I'd have a design in mind, but most people are more concerned about the species (it's a Harry Potter thing), and need some guidance through the design process. I keep drawings of wand ideas and past designs, and most customers end up going with a combination of things I've done previously.

The trap I try to avoid is buying materials or equipment that I don't already have on hand and wasn't already going to buy. Unless I have the stock on hand, I (now) let the customer know that they'll be paying for all the materials I buy, even if they don't all make it into the project, because I can't always control the dimensions of the stock available to me.

Bad example--a customer requested a wand made of sycamore. It's a lovely wood, but not one a lot of people are looking for, and given how light the color is, I wouldn't anticipate it being a great seller for a pen. I took the job, and had to make a 45-minute drive to the nearest hardwood dealer, where I had to buy a 3-foot by 8-inch length of 3/4 stock. I normally like my wand stock to be at least 4/4 thick to give me more options for turning to shape, but all they had was 3/4, so it was that or an even more expensive internet order.

Long story short, I was left with a bunch of wood in a thickness I don't like for wands and a species/color that won't sell if made into a pens.

Had I been dying to work with sycamore, the expense would have been worth it just for the experience, but as it is, I think I barely covered costs on that particular job. Not a problem when it's just one project paying for the next, but not a great business model, and it certainly doesn't help other makers who are trying to competitively price their own work.

 

[PatrickR]

For myself, I rather do "Custom" work. What I think will look great and buyers might find it not so much. It makes things a bit easier for me in the long run and I do not have to carry all kinds of finished inventory.

This is exactly why I am even considering it.