Newbie questions on the Sierra & Turning Between Centers

[candy1land]

So I finally broke down and tried two new things this weekend on my lathe.

I tried making a Sierra Twist Pen with Chrome Finish out of some maple my dear friend Cathy Sue gave me at our local chapter meeting.

I quickly figured out that my 7mm barrel trimmer by itself was not going to work on trimming the blank.

I remember seeing a video or an article about making something (like a spare blank) to fit inside the tube and then using the 7mm to trim with. So I figured since all I had was some scrap wood and extra tubes laying around I would practice turning between centers for the first time while making something to use to trim my Sierra blank.

Well let's just say I learned very quickly that if you tighten the tail stock too much you will flare the tube and split the end of the wood on the blank. Awesome! Good thing it was a scrap piece.

Also while turning between centers I find that the tool I'm using catches the piece often while taking the edges off and it won't spin well until I get the edges off.

Help and advice here would be appreciated as I've never turned between centers before and I have a brand new Live Center and Dead Center from JohnnyCNC that I would like to use. THANKS JOHNNY!

So after turning this scrap piece which I think I turned too small I put it in the Sierra tube and then used my 7mm barrel trimmer to cut the ends of the blank.

Once I was done I noticed that the Sierra pen tube was - how do I explain this? It was jagged not flat like it should be from the pen mill and the tube itself was no longer round either. I had a very hard time getting the bushings into it after using the barrel trimmer.

Once the pen went together in the end you can see the uneven ends on this beautiful wood and I just don't want to go thru that again. I love this kit.

The other problem I encountered was that when I twist the pen open and then closed the tip of the pen itself sticks and I have to push it back in as it won't retract on it's own. I have to do this repeatedly several times before the pen will retract when the transmission is turned back in.

Why is it sticking and what can I do about it?

Also the pen kit slides too easily into the tubes and I'm afraid as others have mentions that the pen will come apart. I didn't even need a pen press to put the kit together because the pieces just slid right on.

So I am quite sure there are some better ways to trim the ends of these Sierra blanks without ruining the tubes and getting an uneven trim and also advice on turning between centers - tricks of the trade if you will.

And how to get this pen kit to perform correctly without the tip of the pen not retracting correctly until I've done it about 20 times.

Thanks - I really love this type of pen so I hope I can get this right.

Candy

 

[DozerMite]

Go back to John and get his sierra bushings and the trim shaft for the sierra. That will take care of the slipping, flares, and get nice even ends.
The sierra should slide on the nib end and the cap should press in tight.

 

[johnnycnc]

I'll say that in my opinion, you need bushings to turn between centers.
Not using them is a bit of an excersice in frustration as you found out.
You can use "factory" bushings to get going, it will be 10X better than no bushings in tems of lessened aggravation trying to get a tool to cut.
If you get picky about fit, later, try a set of my steel bushings.I hear they are good.:wink:
As for pen milling the ends, I use a disc sander to get close, but not touching
the tubes, then use the pen mill to kiss that last bit off. You need to be square
to the inside of the tubes, so don't think the disc sander alone will do it!
As for the burr inside the tubes after trimming, I use this:
http://penturnersproducts.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=48
it's quick and easy.
For kits that slide in a bit too easy when assembling, i use a tiny drop on a toothpick of
two part 5 minute epoxy. You can wipe off any squeeze out with no ill affects.
CA glue has a host of problems when using for this, I avoid it.

I'll let someone else address the twist thing, never had that issue.

Hope something here is of a bit of help!

 

[candy1land]

I'll say that in my opinion, you need bushings to turn between centers.
Not using them is a bit of an excersice in frustration as you found out.
You can use "factory" bushings to get going, it will be 10X better than no bushings in tems of lessened aggravation trying to get a tool to cut.
If you get picky about fit, later, try a set of my steel bushings.I hear they are good.:wink:
As for pen milling the ends, I use a disc sander to get close, but not touching
the tubes, then use the pen mill to kiss that last bit off. You need to be square
to the inside of the tubes, so don't think the disc sander alone will do it!
As for the burr inside the tubes after trimming, I use this:
http://penturnersproducts.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=48
it's quick and easy.
For kits that slide in a bit too easy when assembling, i use a tiny drop on a toothpick of
two part 5 minute epoxy. You can wipe off any squeeze out with no ill affects.
CA glue has a host of problems when using for this, I avoid it.

I'll let someone else address the twist thing, never had that issue.

Hope something here is of a bit of help!

OK perfect, so I like the tool for removing the burr inside the tube that was created in the first place by my pen mill drilling the crap out of the end of the brass tube when it touched it.

Can you send me the link to your Sierra bushings....I looked for them on your site but must be blind because I didn't see them. Too bad I wasn't trying to turn between centers with your 7mm bushings or I could have avoided that first mess.

And also if you have a trimmer that would work better for Sierra's than the 7mm I have now that would be great too. I don't know which one would be the best choice as I haven't figured out the alphabet yet for the drill bit and trimmer sizes.

I see another order in my near future with you.

Thanks for the help - I do believe I had too much wood on the end of the blank before I started trimming and I definitely didn't "kiss" the edge of the metal as you described. It was more like I side swiped it hard with the trimmer. LOL

Candy

 

[CSue]

Candy, I know you are close to Woodcraft. They carry a Pen Mill set that enables you to use it on a number of different types of pen kits. They also have a kit for the "Wall Street II" which is same as Sierra size tube. (Or do what DozerMite said!)

I also use a disc sander till I get close to the edge of the tube, then just use pen mill or sanding paper by hand until it squares off with the tube.

One of the problems I had when first making a Sierra pen was that the drill bit wandered a bit as I had to adjust for the length of the tube and depth of the hole drilled. Any extra taken off the inside will cause that slack.

Ain't learning great?

 

[johnnycnc]

OK perfect, so I like the tool for removing the burr inside the tube that was created in the first place by my pen mill drilling the crap out of the end of the brass tube when it touched it.

Can you send me the link to your Sierra bushings....I looked for them on your site but must be blind because I didn't see them. Too bad I wasn't trying to turn between centers with your 7mm bushings or I could have avoided that first mess.

And also if you have a trimmer that would work better for Sierra's than the 7mm I have now that would be great too. I don't know which one would be the best choice as I haven't figured out the alphabet yet for the drill bit and trimmer sizes.

I see another order in my near future with you.

Thanks for the help - I do believe I had too much wood on the end of the blank before I started trimming and I definitely didn't "kiss" the edge of the metal as you described. It was more like I side swiped it hard with the trimmer. LOL

Candy

PM sent!

 

[NewLondon88]

The other problem I encountered was that when I twist the pen open and then closed the tip of the pen itself sticks and I have to push it back in as it won't retract on it's own. I have to do this repeatedly several times before the pen will retract when the transmission is turned back in.

Why is it sticking and what can I do about it?

One thought that comes to mind..
If the spring has a wide end and a thinner end to it, reversing this
can cause the refill to jam.. The wider end should go in first. If the
smaller end goes in first, it can slip into an area of the nib that it isn't
supposed to go into. There isn't room for the spring AND the refill, so they
can jam into each other.
Also, the transmissions sometimes have packing grease in/on them. If
there is too much, it can make the movement a little sticky. Once in a
while I'll need to wash one out with mineral spirits and that seems to help.

Don't know if this is what's happening with yours or not.. but it's a quick
thing to check. Swapping out the trans with another one could tell you
if it's related to that or not.

OK, I'm out of ideas :tongue:

 

[KenV]

Welcome to the "Learning Curve". We have all been there. One thing that helps with the Sierra style is that there are multiple lengths -- The longest tube is the click that is designed for a Uniball -- That pen can be made as a Parker 'style with the standard sierra tube cut down to 1.882 inches in length (a chipped end or similar problem can be recovered by shortening the body) Then there is the click pencil which is still shorter.

A "aw shucks" twist sierra can become a parker length Click Sierra, or still shorter a
Click Sierra Pencil.

 

[its_virgil]

Drill a 7mm hole in a piece of scrap wood. Glue in a spare 7mm tube and put the "blank" on the mandrel and turn it so it just slips inside the sierra tube. The looser the fit the more wiggle the pen mill will have and you will get those "jagged" edges on the trimmed blank's tube. You can make similar shims for all of the different sizes of tubes for other kits. You don't need to purchase the set of shafts for all of the different tube sizes...just make 'em as you need 'em.

The parker refill spring does have a larger end and a smaller end. Put it on one way and it will hang and cause the problem you described. Take it out and turn it around.

Sometimes a bit of plating is inside the hole on the end of the pen where the refill propels. This bit of plating needs to be removed. It will sometimes happen on most any ballpoint pen and rollerballs as well. Check the refill and make sure it freely propels out the end before assembly.

And lastly, the sierra twist (and all of other sierras with various names) are very sensitive to any glue being inside the tube's end that fits over the shoulder where the transmission attaches. The clearance is very small. The glue, or dirt, will cause binding. Make sure the end of the barrel will slip over into place and freely twist. If not, clean out the end of the tube. I routinely clean both ends and test them prior to assembly.

And lastly again, I've attached a picture of pen mill and some of the shims I've made.

Do a good turn daily!
Don

 

[jlord]

The large end of the spring should be down towards the nib end. The smaller side of the spring will fit the refill snug.

 

[leehljp]

Candy,

Below are links to two other ways of squaring the blanks and are very helpful. They are not hard to do but they are different. The second one has become popular recently.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=50112

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=48603&referrerid=5703

also advice on turning between centers - tricks of the trade if you will.

AS to tips on bushings and TBC, I use the bushings for turning but when it comes to finish sanding and finishing, I take the bushings off. Most people do it this way. When not using bushings, be careful about over-tightening the tail stock. You can flare the tubes. While this is generally not a problem, it does happen from time to time.

 

[candy1land]

Drill a 7mm hole in a piece of scrap wood. Glue in a spare 7mm tube and put the "blank" on the mandrel and turn it so it just slips inside the sierra tube. The looser the fit the more wiggle the pen mill will have and you will get those "jagged" edges on the trimmed blank's tube. You can make similar shims for all of the different sizes of tubes for other kits. You don't need to purchase the set of shafts for all of the different tube sizes...just make 'em as you need 'em.

The parker refill spring does have a larger end and a smaller end. Put it on one way and it will hang and cause the problem you described. Take it out and turn it around.

Sometimes a bit of plating is inside the hole on the end of the pen where the refill propels. This bit of plating needs to be removed. It will sometimes happen on most any ballpoint pen and rollerballs as well. Check the refill and make sure it freely propels out the end before assembly.

And lastly, the sierra twist (and all of other sierras with various names) are very sensitive to any glue being inside the tube's end that fits over the shoulder where the transmission attaches. The clearance is very small. The glue, or dirt, will cause binding. Make sure the end of the barrel will slip over into place and freely twist. If not, clean out the end of the tube. I routinely clean both ends and test them prior to assembly.

And lastly again, I've attached a picture of pen mill and some of the shims I've made.

Do a good turn daily!
Don

Great picture. That is what I tried to do as well but I think I turned the blank too small in diameter to protect the tube. I'll make another one and try again on the next pen.

As for the sticking problem. I checked the spring.....it came correctly - big end of spring at the tip of the pen. I even reversed it anyway and yep....that is a worse problem. The spring gets jammed up in there.

I checked the inside of the pen hardware and noticed that there is a VERY tight clearance when the tip of the pen comes out. I think it may be what you described as the plating on the inside making it stick.

Any suggestions on how to clean out the plating on the inside of this tip piece of hardware without ruining the outside? And how do you clean out the glue from your tubes?

Thanks,

Candy

 

[NewLondon88]

Any suggestions on how to clean out the plating on the inside of this tip piece of hardware without ruining the outside? And how do you clean out the glue from your tubes?

As for clearing out the tip .. you can do it with the refill .. just keep running
it in and out of the tip and it should smooth out. I don't know if you're
replacing your refills or not (the ones that come with the 7mm kits aren't
usually all that good, so many of us get better replacements from vendors
here on the forum) but I wouldn't use a good refill to do this. I must have
a few dozen hanging around I could send you. Or if you have a punch set,
one of them might be small enough to fit.. I don't remember.

As for cleaning out the glue, you can use anything hard to push it
out. It should just 'pop' off of the tube when you push it. The transfer
punches are good for this as well as for dis-assembling pens in case of
a problem. (Not expensive, they usually go on sale for about $5/set)
Barring that, anything round and hard that will fit inside the tube should
work OK. Preferably metal.

 

[candy1land]

Ahhhh....good tip. I forgot about my punch set. I can see if one of them goes that small and clean out the pen tip.

Also - I didn't realize people were replacing the refills. That is a great tip as I haven't been too impressed with what comes with the 7mm kits. The Sierra refill isn't too bad but I'm extremely picky about that and so far I haven't liked any of them yet.

I'll check out who has good refills on the forum. I'd rather buy from them.

I will try out the punch set thing tonight when I get home and see if that will free the refill enough to get it moving in the tip without sticking.

Thanks again for the help!

Candy

 

[candy1land]

Candy,

Below are links to two other ways of squaring the blanks and are very helpful. They are not hard to do but they are different. The second one has become popular recently.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=50112

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=48603&referrerid=5703



AS to tips on bushings and TBC, I use the bushings for turning but when it comes to finish sanding and finishing, I take the bushings off. Most people do it this way. When not using bushings, be careful about over-tightening the tail stock. You can flare the tubes. While this is generally not a problem, it does happen from time to time.

I read both of these and I can see why people use different methods to square up the blanks. I wish I could just stick with the pen mill as I find it the easiest so far without trying other methods. When I eventually get a drill chuck and other accessories for my lathe I will experiment with one of these methods. I'm not a big fan of the disc sander method as you can't see how close you are to the tube. Seems like none of the methods are "perfect" every time.

I guess this is part of the learning curve I keep reading about. : )

Thanks,

Candy

 

[NewLondon88]

I read both of these and I can see why people use different methods to square up the blanks. I wish I could just stick with the pen mill as I find it the easiest so far without trying other methods.

You can, but on some woods the mill might tend to tear out the wood.
Just like you use a different tool for different jobs.. sometimes you'll go
to the mill and sometimes to the sander .. or whatever you decide.

When I eventually get a drill chuck and other accessories for my lathe I will experiment with one of these methods. I'm not a big fan of the disc sander method as you can't see how close you are to the tube.

Ah .. but your ear will tell you immediately. :biggrin: Sanding brass sounds
different than sanding wood.

I guess this is part of the learning curve I keep reading about. : )

We're ALL still on it :tongue:

ps .. get to Exoticblanks.com and look for the Private Reserve refills for the
Sierras. (EasyFlow 9000?) You'll never look back. That reminds me..
time to go order another 10 pack. I've been replacing every parker refill
in my pens with these, and people love them.

 

[candy1land]

You can, but on some woods the mill might tend to tear out the wood.
Just like you use a different tool for different jobs.. sometimes you'll go
to the mill and sometimes to the sander .. or whatever you decide.



Ah .. but your ear will tell you immediately. :biggrin: Sanding brass sounds
different than sanding wood.


We're ALL still on it :tongue:

ps .. get to Exoticblanks.com and look for the Private Reserve refills for the
Sierras. (EasyFlow 9000?) You'll never look back. That reminds me..
time to go order another 10 pack. I've been replacing every parker refill
in my pens with these, and people love them.

HA!!! Good to know. I feel like each time I turn a pen my list of tools needed just keeps growing. LOL I see now why everyone warned me my money would disappear quickly! I better start selling soon! Hehehehe.

Thanks for the tip on ink refills for this pen. I love them so far, but then again I've only turned slim lines and one Sierra! :biggrin:

Good point about hearing the difference between sanding wood and sanding brass. Of course you would be able to tell the difference. Hmmmmm.... I'll have to look into both methods I see.

Thanks for the help!

Candy

 

[leehljp]

The learning curve is as much about learning how much tool costs escalates [exponentially] AFTER the initial tool investments! :biggrin:

Seriously, What Charlie wrote about different milling methods for different situations and kinds of wood was a lesson from experience. A few people manage to never need different kinds of end milling and are quite lucky as well as skilled.

 

[glwalker]

"The other problem I encountered was that when I twist the pen open and then closed the tip of the pen itself sticks and I have to push it back in as it won't retract on it's own. I have to do this repeatedly several times before the pen will retract when the transmission is turned back in."

You may try stretching the spring a bit so there is more force applied.

 

[dustmaker]

+1 on the Easy Flow 9000 refills. I just bought a 10 pack and they are amazing. It's like a rollerball experience in a ballpoint pen. I have one in the Sierra I carry and I have people try it all the time. Everyone so far has noticed the smoothness. I will be upgrading all of my Parker style pens with this refill. I got mine from exoticblanks.com, shipping was fast.
Also +1 on using the sander for some milling. I have had a brittle blank break up on me using the pen mill (but it probably needed sharpening too).
I am also feeling the pain in my wallet and climbing the learning curve, but I have to admit, I am having way too much fun with this!

 

[bracky1]

I've found that the springs on some sierras to be a bit weak and have started replacing them with springs from cheap or broken pens.

 

[Len Shreck]

I have not tried one of these but I am learning a lot by just reading what you all are typing. Thanks Len