Need help, had another failure,,,

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stevers

stevers

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Hi,
I turned down one of the blanks you saw me casting along with the Lilly blanks and had a catastrophic failure. I need to know if anyone has had this exact thing happen. It appears there was a reaction between the paint and glue on the labels. I suspect heat also, but my first thought is a reaction. The paint is Krylon, flat white, fast drying. The labels are Avery 8163 white mailing labels.
Come on Greg, Bruce, all of you, this is getting expensive.


20079222167_temps.jpg
 
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Sorry, you've done more of these than me at this point.

Do my eyes deceive or is it only along the seam of the label that did that? It looks like I can see the tube showing through. Maybe the paint didn't dry all the way before the label went on?

Maybe trying the dewaxed shellac as a sealer wouldn't hurt. We know that works from others' work.

GK
 
Greg,
It's on both/all sides. The paint not being completely dry or "cured" is a possibility. It was approx 45 minutes between spray and pour. The paint can said "drys in 12 min". That doesn't mean cured. Also, I chose flat paint thinking it would hold the stickers better.
Ya know it almost looks like the paper disintegrated under the resin. It's as tho the paper went transparent. Like you said, you thought you could see the tube, well you can most definitely see the tube. I'm going to try a couple of experiments with the paint and the labels and see if I can nail this down. I'll keep you posted.
 
Hey Steve, Sorry to see you had that problem. Looks like it would have been a really nice pen.

I've done 6 or 7 pens using the same Kryon paint and haven't had that problem. I have always let it dry for several (6 or 7) hours or overnight. I was thinking that just because it dries to the touch so quickly doesn't mean that it is cured all the way.
 
My thoughts too. I am in the early stages of an experiment right now. I painted 6 7mm tubes after ruffing up and they are drying now. I'm going to see the diff reactions after diff cure times. 30 min, 2 hours, 6 hours etc.Don't leave your seats,,,,,,,,,[:p][:p][:p]
 
When paper gets wet it becomes more transparent. By painting the tube white it makes it so it becomes transparent and shows the white tube so no loss in design.

GK
 
Steve - One problem may be the 8163 labels. I tried the 8165, which is probably the full sheet version of these and they don't work nearly as well as the 8255 series particularly for colors. I have seen what you are seeing when I didn't paint the tube. Did you have to lift the label up to reposition the label, or did you place it exactly where you wanted the first time? If so you may have lifted off some of the paint. Although the paint does work most of the time, I'm seriously thinking of going to white powder coating for extra insurance. Only problem is I don't have a powder coater - but one is in the future.
 
Bruce,
What's the diff between 8100's and 8200's? Are they both Ink Jet or are the 82's laser. I asked the lady and she told me it's to do with how the paper absorbs the ink.

Edit; no I didn't lift them.
 
Steve,

I think you need to change labels. The ones you are using are not waterproof. The resin will soak through, desolve the paint, and show the underlying color. Look for the Avery WeatherProof labels. I use the 15516, but is is for a laser printer. I am sure they have one for inkjet as well. I think this will give you much more consistent results.

I do a lot of doming and the waterproof is what I have to use.

The pens look great! Keep trying and you'll get there.

Originally posted by stevers
<br />Hi,
I turned down one of the blanks you saw me casting along with the Lilly blanks and had a catastrophic failure. I need to know if anyone has had this exact thing happen. It appears there was a reaction between the paint and glue on the labels. I suspect heat also, but my first thought is a reaction. The paint is Krylon, flat white, fast drying. The labels are Avery 8163 white mailing labels.
Come on Greg, Bruce, all of you, this is getting expensive.


20079222167_temps.jpg
<br />
Click to expand...
 
Thanks Bob, thats what I am leaning toward. I didn't take Bruce's advice and I bought cheaper labels and I think it is the problem. I'm going to have to pick up the labels you are all suggesting and keep trying.
 
Originally posted by stevers
<br />Bruce,
What's the diff between 8100's and 8200's?
Click to expand...
A few dollars[:)]


They're both ink jet. When I first started this I bought the 8200 series because that's what was in the store. Then next time I needed labels, I bought the 8100 series because it said Smudge and Jam free on the package and they were cheaper. When I compared the printed image, the 8200's were much brighter and the others never made it into a pen. I think you're on the right track - hope you're writing all this down for the tutorial.
 
I think you could write a great tutorial.[:D] I think your all right about the cheap label stock. The package I bought said just what you said, "smudge and jam free". When I dropped some water on the labels, the label turned almost transparent. It also turned to pulp and fell apart. The fed-x labels I have held up better than in the same experiment. Probably because they are water proof so they wont smug in the field. It's to bad they lifted at the seems.
 
Again, think you're on the right track. Only thing to be concerned with now is what makes the label waterproof and will that impact lifting at the seams. I suspect that if the waterproofing is a silicone base material which is used in some waterproof papers, that might lead to seam lift. I tried to water proof a label after applying, and that lead to other problems for me, but perhaps I didn't use the right material. The plastic based label stock such as the clear labels will also seam lift.
 
When I used the fed ex labels they came off in the casting. I have done a ton of experimenting casting on labels and painting tubes. My best guess is you turned it too soon I have let castings cure for 6-8 hours, they felt as hard as a rock, so I turned it, the tube ended up spinning inside the casting and it pulled the paint off( it looked exactly like yours), and I was able to pull the tube right out of the casting. In the same batch I waited 24 hours and the rest turned out fine. It may be the paint, because i never have casted that quickly after painting, but I'm guessing you turned it too soon
 
May I suggest you try a black label with white lettering. It takes more ink, but it solves the problem with the seam showing, try one with painting the tube and one without. The one you do not paint, the tube will turn the letters a little tint of gold but that looks good with many of the gold kits. For an awesome logo cigar pen, put your name in white letters with a black background on the long tube, and black plastic or ebony on the short tube. I have sold probably hundreds of these, next time I get to AZ I will show you one
 
Yes Rick, that sounds pretty cool.
The theory of spinning the tube in the blank really makes sense. It looks like that could very well be what happened. And it makes sense because the other pen turned fine. I'm going to look more into that.
And Lee, if thats the case, that means yours will be fine. By the time you get them. they will be more than ready to turn.
Rick, thanks so much for the help.
 
Steve, I'm going to try some stickers on tubes later today and I seem to recall someone on the forum saying to coat the tubes with thin Ca after applying the stickers. Maybe this would work for yours as extra protection. Good luck, I'll let you know how mine turn out.
 
I have had really good luck with fingernail polish! It come in about any color you would want and has it's own built in brush. I do let it dry well. With halloween coming up it is the best time to find white and black. Alice
 
Here is a thought for everybody, The picture looks like there is paint failure??? one comment is that it may have gotten hot during turning, could it be that the Krylon paint need to be the type that is heat resistant, like the stuff you paint engine blocks, gas grills etc.

With another thought, could the paint be weakened by the label adhesive. cheaper labels use cheaper adhesive?

We all should know the answer to the cheap v. expensive labels soon?
 
I was out and about today looking at various things. I am going to try the Krylon® Fusion for Plastic to paint the tubes with. I will do a cast in the next few days and post the results.
 
I am leaning toward the explanation from Polarbear. That the resin hadn't cured and the tube rotated in the blank. I picked up some good labels (ones others have had success with), and will let the paint dry for a while, then will let the blank sit for a day before turning. I feel this will do the trick and I will have good results. I'll let you all know my results later.
 
Lee, I think they'll be fine by the time they get to you.
I just put another set in the mold and poured it. One of the Steve's Custom Pens lowers and a blue upper. I used the Avery 8255 labels and already see a diff. When I poured them, they held their color. I didn't see them begin to go transparent like the earlier set. The white seemed to be staying white. I have high hopes for this set.
 
Just curious Steve, is the Kryon a metal paint? I have been using paint that is for metals to paint my tubes and have been having good luck with it.
 
Here's the latest progress. This is the attempt with the 8255 Avery labels, Krylon flat white on the tubes. I let the paint dry for over 2 hours. The resin has 8 drops in 3 ounces. Lets see what happens.

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I tried putting CA on the label before casting and did not have any luck with it. Without it looked flawless, so I did not try again. I can try some pictures, but I suck at taking pictures, my pens look way better than the picture. And you do not use black labels, you use white with black ink.
 
I use a little CA at the ends, mostly where the wood squares are. So far the corks have held well. When I install them, I push them in quite a ways, well over half the length of the cork. Then I cast at 20 pounds, give or take a pound.
 
I'm not sure about and actually tutorial, just do a search for the subject you want and you should find a lot of info. We have been doing a lot of experiments lately and there have been a lot posts on casting lately. Maybe narrow your search to the Casting and Stabilization forums.
 
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