Modeling software...specific features

[jrista]

Hello blank makers. I am in the process of trying to 3D model many of my blank ideas. I've had a lot for some time, but I've lost the specifics of some, as I haven't put some kind of concrete form to them. So what I'm trying to do now, so I can return to old blank ideas later on if necessary, is model them, document the specifics of the design, reference any color and design inspirations, etc.

One thing I have now run into trouble with, is actually fully understanding how a square blank will look once turned. An example is this one:

The initial idea seemed sound...however, as I sat and looked at this, and pondered how turning would affect it, I've realized that its not actually going to work the way I wanted it to. The main problem being, the two angled black layers will actually not be positioned correctly once the blank is turned. The goal was to have the ends of these "rays" meet the top and bottom sections exactly at the edge of the TURNED, ROUND blank. Since the starting square blank is going to lose a lot of material, what will actually happen here once a blank like this was turned, would be that the positions of the ends of the rays would shift upwards, with the right-hand one (that passes all teh way to the bottom section) would separate from the bottom section rather than just barely touch it. Similarly, the conjunction of the two rays at the top would not occur...the rays would both separate from the top section, as well as each other, once turned.

This is a common problem with several of the blank designs I've modeled recently, now that I've noticed it. Which gave rise to the question I am asking now...

Is there modeling software, that effectively allows you to "turn" a cubic structure like this (say the whole set of individual shapes as one, if they could be say "grouped" as a single object), in order to extract a cylinder from this aggregate shape? I don't know if there is an official CAD term for this operation...I messed with CAD software about 20 years ago, but its been quite some time, and I don't remember the names of all the various operations you can perform in a CAD program, or how, or even what software is available today that might support this.

The main idea would be to preview what the blank would look like, if turned to the proper diameter for a given pen. Then see what adjustments would need to be made to the ray angles and positions, in order to achieve the specified goals above. Undoubtedly I could use some math to help me properly position everything here...but, part of the idea is to experiment, and see how the blank would look with different pen sizes. I have two, maybe three different pen kits I'm considering using the above blank with, each with different diameters. One of them is narrower, another is rather large...and I think the nature of the rays would be quite different between those two (once turned, the idea is the shorter ray would/should appear to curve away from the longer ray).

Anyway...thanks for any ideas or suggestions.

 

[jrista]

Well, lacking a virtual "turning" tool (which, apparently Autodesk's 3D Studio Max has now, for a mere $1900 a year!) I have resorted to using "tube" shapes adjusted to the exact diameters I would need, placing and angling the ray layers at the right locations on those, then adding a cube of the proper dimensions to determine exactly what the blank should look like before turning, and hopefully also as a means of identifying exactly where my cuts should be made on the individual raw material blanks in order to position the ray layers correctly.

Not an ideal solution, but I think it will work for the need in the end.

 

[d_bondi]

Jon,
It looks like you are using TinkerCad. You should be able to trim this to round by creating a shape that is a square cross section with a round void in it. Then make that a negative and center it on your blank, group them and your blank will be round. The only problem may be that grouping will make the model a single color, so that might not work.

How about AutoCAD Fusion 360? It is available for free for personal use. I have it installed on my MacBook Pro, but haven't begun messing with it yet.

 

[jrista]

Jon,
It looks like you are using TinkerCad. You should be able to trim this to round by creating a shape that is a square cross section with a round void in it. Then make that a negative and center it on your blank, group them and your blank will be round. The only problem may be that grouping will make the model a single color, so that might not work.

How about AutoCAD Fusion 360? It is available for free for personal use. I have it installed on my MacBook Pro, but haven't begun messing with it yet.

Thank you or the tip. I'll give this a try in a bit here, as I am indeed using TinkerCad ATM. I had forgotten about Fusion 360. I am wanting a more powerful tool here anyway, hopefully Fusion 360 will be.

 

[WarEagle90]

Jon, Fusion will do exactly what you are trying to do. Simply build the blank in Fusion the way you would on the bench and then sketch a circle the diameter of your tube on one end and extrude the negative of the circle.

Herre is an example:

Let me know if you have any questions. Will gladly help walk you through the process.

 

[d_bondi]

WOW Dan, okay, I really need to drop TinkerCAD and switch to Fusion 360, I mean I already have it installed.

Is there any particularly good tutorial or group of them you recommend?

P.S. 35 years ago I used good old AutoCAD on a PS2 Model 80, complete with the 16 button puck and digitizer, but I'm pretty sure none of those brain cells are fully functional anymore.

 

[WarEagle90]

David, although his videos are older, I recommend Lars Christensen for general Fusion training.

 

[d_bondi]

Thank you Dan, I'll look him up.

 

[jrista]

@WarEagle90 Dan, thank you so much! That is exactly what I was looking for. Should help me figure out the positions and dimensions of everything so much more easily.

 

[jrista]

@WarEagle90 Hey Dan...you don't happen to recommend any intro videos for Fusion 360 do you? The ui and command approach in this app is rather unusual, and it seems to be more difficult to use than a lot of the other 3d modeling programs I've used. Simple things, like cloning and moving objects (bodies in f360 speak) seems all but impossible. I keep running into issues, like it auto-merging new objects with existing ones if they touch, stuff like that. I don't think any of the other modeling apps I have support anything like a "negative extrude" (Maybe Blender 3D does, but I haven't quite figured it out yet...and I'm not sure if it can do it with a group, or component as it would be in F360).

 

[d_bondi]

@WarEagle90 Hey Dan...you don't happen to recommend any intro videos for Fusion 360 do you? The ui and command approach in this app is rather unusual, and it seems to be more difficult to use than a lot of the other 3d modeling programs I've used. Simple things, like cloning and moving objects (bodies in f360 speak) seems all but impossible. I keep running into issues, like it auto-merging new objects with existing ones if they touch, stuff like that. I don't think any of the other modeling apps I have support anything like a "negative extrude" (Maybe Blender 3D does, but I haven't quite figured it out yet...and I'm not sure if it can do it with a group, or component as it would be in F360).

His response to this question from me was...

"David, although his videos are older, I recommend Lars Christensen for general Fusion training."

I looked him up on YouTube and started on the first one. Something like "for absolute beginners, part I"...

Because the videos are older, the first thing that will confuse you (well it sent me down a rabbit hole anyway) is when he says get into the "Model" mode... there isn't "Model" mode anymore, it is "Design".

I'm hoping to work through it a little tonight.

Good Luck!!

 

[jrista]

His response to this question from me was...

"David, although his videos are older, I recommend Lars Christensen for general Fusion training."

I looked him up on YouTube and started on the first one. Something like "for absolute beginners, part I"...

Because the videos are older, the first thing that will confuse you (well it sent me down a rabbit hole anyway) is when he says get into the "Model" mode... there isn't "Model" mode anymore, it is "Design".

I'm hoping to work through it a little tonight.

Good Luck!!

I actually did watch several of those... It sounded like a lot of the features he used he said were only in the paid version.

One of the things I've been trying to accomplish is a simple alignment of one object relative to the face, in one axis, of another. I can't seem to do that. There is a super basic "Align" tool, that doesn't give me any options other than to select the two things to align, but it then usually aligns them wrong. I couldn't find any other options with it, to allow me to align the way I wanted. One of Lars' videos covered the "Arrange" tool, but that is apparently only available in the paid version. I am kind of surprised Align is so....limited? I was hoping I was using it wrong...

 

[d_bondi]

I actually did watch several of those... It sounded like a lot of the features he used he said were only in the paid version.

One of the things I've been trying to accomplish is a simple alignment of one object relative to the face, in one axis, of another. I can't seem to do that. There is a super basic "Align" tool, that doesn't give me any options other than to select the two things to align, but it then usually aligns them wrong. I couldn't find any other options with it, to allow me to align the way I wanted. One of Lars' videos covered the "Arrange" tool, but that is apparently only available in the paid version. I am kind of surprised Align is so....limited? I was hoping I was using it wrong...

Sorry Jon, I'm just getting started with Fusion 360, but was lead to believe that the "for personal use" version had two limitations, 1) 10 editable files at a time (but you can switch them on and off), and 2) no CAM (computer aided manufacturing) functions.

 

[jrista]

Sorry Jon, I'm just getting started with Fusion 360, but was lead to believe that the "for personal use" version had two limitations, 1) 10 editable files at a time (but you can switch them on and off), and 2) no CAM (computer aided manufacturing) functions.

Yeah, that is what I read. I don't know what they consider CAM... They have this "Arrange" feature, which is apparently not available in the personal edition. However, I think....that Arrange is exactly what is required, in order to easily align components relative to each other. Maybe they classify that feature as a CAM feature...but, its in the design module. There is a whole different area for actually sending things to manufacture.

The "Align" feature is super simplistic. You select one point on one body, and another point somewhere (same body, different body), and it seems to just move the two points so they align. However, I don't know how it chooses which axis to move within, and sometimes it seems rather arbitrary. But, that's all that align seems to do. From some of the videos I've watched (and I think they were Lars'), you need the Arrange tool to create an arrangement, and once you have one of those, then additional tools for aligning things open up. :'(

 

[jrista]

In light of these factors, my current approach has become this:

1. Move object to origin.
2. Move object to explicit location relative to origin, based on dimensions of object I wish to align to (which is also positioned specifically relative to the origin), in first axis.
3. Adjust position in second and third axes.
4. Evaluate object from various angles to verify its correct.

There does not seem to be any kind of basic measurement tool that I've found...at least yet. There is another module, "Configure" that seems to give you insights and edits into your components and such. That is also restricted to the paid version. I don't know if they also consider that a CAM feature, or just something they exclude from the personal edition. In any case....

I may fiddle with Blender 3D again. Its very powerful, very capable, and makes direct editing a bit easier than Fusion does. Howerver, I don't know if it has a group/component level "negative extrude" feature. I think its negative extrusion will just do simple things like cut a hole into a part.

 

[WarEagle90]

Jon, David, sorry for the late reply. This little thing called work gets in the way of my hobbies. The personal version of Fusion is limited only in the number of editable models (10) that can be actively edited at one time. In simple terms, you can edit up to 10 models before you have to start setting some to read only. You can always go back and edit any of your files, you just can't have more than 10 set to edit at one time. I think I got to rambling there, but you get the idea. Fusion uses body's and components where components are simply a collection of bodies. When creating a body that is adjacent to (touching) another body just make sure you select "New Body" in whatever creation tool (extrude, loft, etc) you are using. As long as you have the timeline along the bottom off the GUI interface turned on, you can always go back and correct any mistakes you discover. For example, if you create a body and leave the selection to join and realize later that you meant to create a separate body, you can simply right click on the feature in the timeline and select edit feature and make the changes you need and Fusion will update everything that was done after that point.

Fusion uses sketches as its foundation and then uses the sketches to create bodies. For example if you want to create a basic pen blank, first make a sketch on the bottom origin plane containing a square 3/4" or whatever dimension you want to start with for the blank and then select extrude or simply press Q and pull the blank to the length you want the blank. To turn the blank (make round), create a sketch using one of the ends of the blank as the sketch plane, create a circle the diameter of your finished blank and then select the outside of the circle, not the circle itself, then extrude that to the other end to create your finished "turning".

I can put a short video together if you like, just give me a day or so to get it done. I can also setup a Zoom or Teams call and walk you and whoever else wants to participate through the process of making a blank or any other tools you would like to see. Fusion is very powerful, but if you take the time to master the basics (sketches, extrude and a couple others) you can create most anything you want without having to be an expert.

Let me know how I can help.

 

[WarEagle90]

Here is a quick, basic video of how to create a simple blank and "turn" it.

I can go through and show you how to create a segmented blank also, if you wish. Just let me know. Glad to help anyway I can.

 

[jrista]

Here is a quick, basic video of how to create a simple blank and "turn" it.

I can go through and show you how to create a segmented blank also, if you wish. Just let me know. Glad to help anyway I can.

Oh...I didn't even think to actually search for creating a pen blank in fusion. I guess I figured no one would have such a video!

Thanks. I'll let you know. I've learned a little bit more... I am pretty used to Maya and Blender. Maya is great. Its become ridiculously expensive under the subscription model, but its amazing. So I'm probably rather spoiled.

 

[jrista]

Here is a quick, basic video of how to create a simple blank and "turn" it.

I can go through and show you how to create a segmented blank also, if you wish. Just let me know. Glad to help anyway I can.

Ah, this was just for how to extrude. I actually did figure that out. The trouble I've been having, is assembling my full blank design. Mostly around aligning different pieces of the whole. I'm resorting to manually positioning each and every piece relative to the environment origin, which is tedious. Was hoping for a way to aline parts relative to each other, but so far I haven't figured out how to do that (and it may be in a portion of the app I would have to subscribe to get.)

I also did try to aggregate all my various individual bodies into a component, so I could extrude through the whole thing at once. For some reason, I can't seem to do that? I tried to select all the bodies I wanted included, but every time I create a component it doesn't actually seem to work. I tried creating a component, then dragging bodies into it...which as I'm dragging seems like it would work...but once I drop, nothing happens. The UI is really quite confusing, and a lot of operations I'm used to from other apps don't work in this one. So its been...a journey.

 

[d_bondi]

Thank you Dan! I haven't had time to play with this just yet, but will do so soon. I am happy to know that there is someone here on IAP that really knows Fusion 360. My use will be for designs for 3D printing.

 

[jrista]

Well, managed to get everything mostly aligned, at least for a first try at extruding the whole thing. Turned out, it would extrude anything within the area of the surface I chose for extrusion. The black bars, are the parts of the rays that extended beyond that extrusion area. I need to move the rays in anyway, so that should be resolved next attempt.

Managed to figure out a little bit on the materials side. The trimmed rays and dots kind of blend with the core blank surface. I may try to move those surfaces out just a smidge, like 0.01mm, and see if that resolves the issue.

 

[jrista]

@d_b

Jon, David, sorry for the late reply. This little thing called work gets in the way of my hobbies. The personal version of Fusion is limited only in the number of editable models (10) that can be actively edited at one time. In simple terms, you can edit up to 10 models before you have to start setting some to read only. You can always go back and edit any of your files, you just can't have more than 10 set to edit at one time. I think I got to rambling there, but you get the idea. Fusion uses body's and components where components are simply a collection of bodies. When creating a body that is adjacent to (touching) another body just make sure you select "New Body" in whatever creation tool (extrude, loft, etc) you are using. As long as you have the timeline along the bottom off the GUI interface turned on, you can always go back and correct any mistakes you discover. For example, if you create a body and leave the selection to join and realize later that you meant to create a separate body, you can simply right click on the feature in the timeline and select edit feature and make the changes you need and Fusion will update everything that was done after that point.

Fusion uses sketches as its foundation and then uses the sketches to create bodies. For example if you want to create a basic pen blank, first make a sketch on the bottom origin plane containing a square 3/4" or whatever dimension you want to start with for the blank and then select extrude or simply press Q and pull the blank to the length you want the blank. To turn the blank (make round), create a sketch using one of the ends of the blank as the sketch plane, create a circle the diameter of your finished blank and then select the outside of the circle, not the circle itself, then extrude that to the other end to create your finished "turning".

I can put a short video together if you like, just give me a day or so to get it done. I can also setup a Zoom or Teams call and walk you and whoever else wants to participate through the process of making a blank or any other tools you would like to see. Fusion is very powerful, but if you take the time to master the basics (sketches, extrude and a couple others) you can create most anything you want without having to be an expert.

Let me know how I can help.

Thanks, Dan! I missed this before (probably because I clicked on the video post first, and this scrolled off the screen.

The timeline tidbit about right-clicking to get to edit, was huge. I've been looking all over the place for a way to edit! What a strange place to hide that...

Now that I know where to go to edit, I think that will make using this a lot easier. Lacking that, I kept having to push/pull and move, to get things where I wanted them or the size I wanted them, which felt really odd. With the ability to directly edit the specs of any given body, that should simplify a heck of a lot!

I do have one question. To really get the extrude to work properly, would you say its necessary to split faces, and remove parts of bodies that otherwise intersect and pass through each other? Looking at your extrusion above, it appears you must have split some of the faces to directly mimic exactly how you would be cutting the wood in order to assemble that celtic knot properly...

 

[WarEagle90]

Jon, yes you have to slice the pen blank and add your segmenting pieces just as you would on your work bench. Once you create the pen blank, create a sketch on one face and sketch your segments. Once that is complete simply extrude the sketched segment all the way through the blank which will create the saw kerf. Then extrude the same sketch again making sure you select New Body under Operations. You can then apply a physical material or color to that body so it will be readily visible once you create the turned blank. Here is quick video I put together to show how I created a simple X pattern for a segmented blank. Let me know if you have any questions.