Just my humble opinion

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NotURMailman

NotURMailman

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2012
Messages
479
Location
Orange Park, Florida
I'm not whining, just throwing this out there. Mainly because I can't be the only person this has happened to.

I don't post pictures of my pens here anymore. You ask why?

Most times that I posted a picture I explained that I don't own a digital camera (my wife does, but she carries it in her purse and we work opposite shifts) and the pcitures were taken with my phone. I appologized in advance for the photo quality and posted the picture.

I proceded to get posts about the poor photo quality more often than comments on the pens. So, I stopped posting pictures.

If someone states that they know the picture quality isn't great and that they did what they could with teh equipment they, why would you insist on commenting about the photo intself anyway? This isn't a photography forum.

If someone just posts a picture and you try to give them photo tips that is different.

I do not make pens to make money and was not going to go out and spend money on a camera I didn't need. I would like to get a nice camera, but it's not at the top of my priority list.

It makes no difference to me. It doesn't hurt my feelings to not post pictures of my pens. But, I really like seeing other people's pens and I am sure other people have stopped putting pictures up for the same reason.

This is not a complaint, just a simple observation and something for everyone to think about. I really enjoy this forum and have gotten a lot out of it.
 
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I understand where you are coming from and I'm in the same boat. I don't own a camera and use my cell phone for all of my pics. I still post the best pics that I can muster with my limited photo equipment. I think that it is important for me to do this being a newer penturner to get the feedback and share ideas from the more seasoned guys and gals. Personally, I don't care of the quality of the pics. I get mentoring out of good pics as well as not so great pics. Just my $0.02. On a lighter note, I'm awaiting a military transfer to Jacksonville, FL and look forward to meeting you guys over there.

Dave
 
Caveat emptor: (1) you asked, and (2) I haven't seen any of your photos that I know of.

If it were me and I were you, I'd make arrangements with my wife to borrow her digital camera.
I'd take better photos in batches and post en masse rather than from a cell phone which doesn't take good photos.

My cell phone takes so-so photos; my blackberry takes nice clear photos.
 
The fun part about getting advise from a photographer is they speak a different language. The camera in my last phone was actually better than the camera I own. I found the best way to get a better picture was to take pictures outside on a sunny day. Sometimes using a different back round will do wonders for the pen. How often do we hear someone say," The picture doesn't do it justice." Or you don't comment on the pen because you can't really see it. Because a photo is the only way we can see someone's work, like it or not to a certain extent it has become part of the process.
What might be helpful is if someone could write a 3 paragraph how to on plain, non technical speak an simple cheap ways to improve photo's.
 
You just did. Take the photo outside. Even a cloudy day photo. Even better is right at the edge of the shade.

3 paragraphs would get too complicated. We photographers like talking about our cameras and how to use them far too much.
 
Okay, I'm no photo expert, nor do I want to be. I went back and looked at your photo, only found one of two pens you posted. The other photos I found was when you were trying to find the identity of different wood blanks. The biggest problem I see with your photos appears to me to be related to not enough light. Try some with the advice given here and see it they don't come out better. If that doesn't work, post pictures anyway and skip reading the criticisms about the photo!
 
There are several places an experienced penturner will look when evaluating and giving recommendations on improving your pen making.

First, are all the transitions between the pen material and the pen component smooth?
Second, did you sand and remove scratches on the finish--usually if a spot was missed, it will again be near the components.

I have often said, none of this is visible on most photos---but if the photo is BAD, what critique can be offered???

Everyone here has seen "a pen". So, if you want to post to show us "a pen", don't be surprised with a yawn as a response.

A stunning pen will get comments (reference Wizard's pens), but those comments are much easier to make pertinent if you can SEE the pen!

FWIW
(BTW, when I came to IAP, I also said I was not interested in a photography lesson. Over time I have come to realize pen critique depends on "the picture")
 
I certainly wasn't trying to upset anyone or ruffle any feathers.

I have tried to use the suggestions on things like taking them outside. The phone just doesn't do well.

My wife bought the camera spefically to take pcityres of her students and their work and projects and therefor I won't be asking her to borrow it while she is at work (which is when I make my pens).

Any way, that wasn't the point. I will eventually get a good camera and then I will start posting pens again.

My point was really just that when someone says that they know their pictures are not great quality and that they just wanted to post their pen perhaps continuing to post compaints about the photo is not the best idea. If it bothers you that bad, why not just not look at it and/or not post?

Suggestions on how to improve the photos are an entirel different matter, and are (atleast from me) entriely welcome.

I stopped posting pictures a long time ago. I posted this in response to seeing several threads in SOYP where the same thing was done to other, fairly new, members.

Constructive critisism including advise is entirely different than complaints and bad mouthing.

And I have never taken offense or complained about a lack of response or "yawning", I do realize that my pens are not yet even close to some of the people here and poor photos do not give a lot to critique. I just hate to think that newer members are being run off by poeple attacking their photos.
 
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NotURMailman said:
...I won't be asking her to borrow it while she is at work (which is when I make my pens).
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I'll respond to this because it's directly related to my post.
I wasn't suggesting you borrow it while she's using it.
Nor do you have to take the pictures WHEN you make the pen.

Surely, y'all spend some time together.
Maybe she can photograph your pens while you're together.

There's always a reasonable solution to things.
 
GaryMGg said:
NotURMailman said:
...I won't be asking her to borrow it while she is at work (which is when I make my pens).
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I'll respond to this because it's directly related to my post.
I wasn't suggesting you borrow it while she's using it.
Nor do you have to take the pictures WHEN you make the pen.

Surely, y'all spend some time together.
Maybe she can photograph your pens while you're together.

There's always a reasonable solution to things.
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Yes, there is. And mine was to not post any more pictures until I purchase myself a camera. Like I said, I was just hoping to get people to think before they say something to a new person just starting out that may cause them not to come around. This is a great place to learn and I think everyone should be encouraged to stick around!
 
Les

I have never posted a pen picture , partly because I haven`t taken the time to learn how to take a good pen photo , partly because I have a poor camera , partly because I can see my mistakes all too well and don`t need anyone to point them out to me , and partly because I don`t feel a need to have my ego boosted if I do something well , so I have some understanding of where you are coming from . However , many of the cellphone pictures posted are so out of focus that it is impossible to comment intelligently about fit or finish , which are two of the most important attributes of a well made pen . That leaves shape and colour/kit match to evaluate .

I hope that helps to clarify why the `poor photo` comments frequently appear . Please feel free to PM me any time with photos and I will give you my unvarnished opinion .

Wayne
 
1080Wayne said:
Les

I have never posted a pen picture , partly because I haven`t taken the time to learn how to take a good pen photo , partly because I have a poor camera , partly because I can see my mistakes all too well and don`t need anyone to point them out to me , and partly because I don`t feel a need to have my ego boosted if I do something well , so I have some understanding of where you are coming from . However , many of the cellphone pictures posted are so out of focus that it is impossible to comment intelligently about fit or finish , which are two of the most important attributes of a well made pen . That leaves shape and colour/kit match to evaluate .

I hope that helps to clarify why the `poor photo` comments frequently appear . Please feel free to PM me any time with photos and I will give you my unvarnished opinion .

Wayne
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Thank you for the offer. But, this was really just about avoiding running off newbies. I am way more thick skinned than to get upset about it. I just figured if the photos are bothering everyone that much I wouldn't post any more until I got a camera.

I take all of my pens to work everyday. If you want someone to tell you what is wrong with something, lay it out for a bunch of mechanical engineers to pick up and inspect, LOL!
 
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I am not sure why you bother to even post this comment. I will echo what ED said and I am a big proponent of at least taking photos that we can see and it does not take top eqipment to take a photo. With todays cameras you can take decent photos without trying. Take them over to a photo site and clean them up. No excuse. Outside will give the most natual light source so no special lights needed. Shoot them indoors near a window to take advantage of the natural light source if it is too cold or too hot or to whatever.

It does no good to show a photo of a pen and then ask for critiques if that pen can not be viewd properly. The photo is all we have to go by. I will not comment much when I see poor quality photos but will on occassion make a suggestion about the photo. If that offends you orr anyone else, sorry but that is the way I try to help.

As far as the comment about this site being different, The huge thing I see is the great number of newbies. People here want to help so help them help you.

Hope you find what you are looking for. :smile: ( can't forget the smiley face)
 
The only reason I don't post much if at all any more is because I can not compete with a lot of the pens being posted ... some make mine look bad..I can't do what a lot of people here do.. with the casting and kitless. Can't compete so I don't post any more photos....
 
OLDMAN5050 said:
The only reason I don't post much if at all any more is because I can not compete with a lot of the pens being posted ... some make mine look bad..I can't do what a lot of people here do.. with the casting and kitless. Can't compete so I don't post any more photos....
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Hey David!!

Don't know if this will help, or not, but I also have never posted a kitless pen on IAP. Yes, I know HOW to make them, I see no reason to. (I also have no beef with the guys who DO see a reason to).

Yet, I have posted dozens of pics of pens and have had many positive comments from other IAP members. My pens are NOT spectacular--they are well made examples of a "kit pen". Many still respect this and enjoy giving compliments to them.

The IAP is composed of LOTS of members---MANY are new. You all dictate your own behavior. IF new guys post pens and other new guys comment--YOU set the standards for the future. Several of the kitless fanatics have stopped posting or left IAP completely. So, take over and IMPROVE the atmosphere for the pens that are posted.
 
jttheclockman said:
I am not sure why you bother to even post this comment...
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Like I already said, it was actually posted in response to what I felt were some very rude comments made to people even newer than myself in response to their photos. I only relayed my experiences as a demonstration as to why I can relate. I did not think that my very politely worded opinion would anger so many people. I suppose it would be easier to just use this site when I want to read some helpful information since it is obvious that differing opinions are not welcome here. Your post is a perfect example, I clearly stated that this was just my opinion and also clearly stated why I posted it.
 
OK lets all just step back take a deep breath and realize that the written word can at times come across harsh, and that in 999 cases out of 1,000 the poster is just trying to say that he could give a better critique if the photo was better and is not being mean spirited, but when read you cannot hear the tone it was meant in.
 
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Hey Les!!

Writing is a lost art!!

"I am not sure why you bother to even post this comment..." Does not HAVE to be antagonistic, it COULD just be a reflection of the thoughts of the author.

Your answer, "To help other new guys realize they are not alone".

Now one reader may see that as confrontational---I read it as explanatory--

Many years of posting on IAP have allowed me to see how to write in a manner that RARELY offends many, but, I suspect I still offend a few. Certainly a case of "you can't please ALL the people ALL the time."

Just keep trying to be clear and don't take offense with any answers that might appear confrontational--instead try to approach them as a request for further clarification.

IAP used to have some pretty bitter exchanges. I think we are getting far better at understanding each other. Keep trying to accept others' comments as an effort to better understand or have you further explain.

As I usually end,
this comment is only good for what it is worth to you (FWIW)
and always remember it is worth every penny you paid for it!!! (WEPYPFI)

Hoping to help,
Ed
 
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Hey Ed I wonder how Eagle would play with this new group???:biggrin::biggrin: I am sure it would have been fun to say the least. Sensitivety training:biggrin:
 
jttheclockman said:
Hey Ed I wonder how Eagle would play with this new group???:biggrin::biggrin: I am sure it would have been fun to say the least. Sensitivety training:biggrin:
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My friend, Eagle was a gifted pen blank maker----but he was, diplomatically put, "Plain-spoken"!!
(Which resulted in being banned from several sites, including IAP---unfortunately, very justifiably)
 
ed4copies said:
jttheclockman said:
Hey Ed I wonder how Eagle would play with this new group???:biggrin::biggrin: I am sure it would have been fun to say the least. Sensitivety training:biggrin:
Click to expand...

My friend, Eagle was a gifted pen blank maker----but he was, diplomatically put, "Plain-spoken"!!
(Which resulted in being banned from several sites, including IAP---unfortunately, very justifiably)
Click to expand...
But that was what made him unique in many ways. :smile:
 
The last 3 people have posted telling you how to photograph a pen and if I did not miss your point that is NOT what you want. So ignore them and do what you like.
 
I think most people don't read what you type........ They look at the pics real quick and respond. I like to read the posts because a lot of times there is a great story behind the pen or what ever was made.
 
Yes, Ed you are correct. The only post I took as confrontational was the one that stated "I am not sure why you bother to even post this comment..." after I had clearly stated several times why I had done so. I have recently seen some posts that were blatantly rude and really couldn't be taken any other way. Like people telling some new guy that they shouldn't bother posting pictures if they weren't going to take a decent one. That is all I was saying.

Just because you can be rude or blunt doesn't mean you should, and just because it has been or was done in the past (I don't know, I wasn't here) doesn't make it right.

Let me say it again - I was just trying to get people to think about the way they word posts to people, especially new people. I only mentioned the SOYP forum because that is where I most recently saw it.

I also said that telling people how to take better pictures is in no way what I was talking about. That is helping someone. Telling someone that their picture "sucks" with no helpful tips, or telling them they are wasting time posting it without clarifying why is not helpful and is just plain rude.

I totally see the point that a blurry photo doesn't offer the viewer a chance to critique the object. And since I couldn't get better pictures (even using the helpful tips of other members, likely due to my POS Motorola smart phone) without using some one else's camera, which I chose not to do, I simply decided to hold off posting pictures until I buy myself a camera. That was my choice, and my choice alone. That was never the point of this.

So, to anyone who got their feathers ruffled by my posting this, know that that was never my intent. I did not want to bother anyone or start any kind of an argument. I really do firmly believe that written communication can be taken wrongly. If that is what I did referencing the above quote, then I simply made a mistake. I think we can all agree that every one of us does that! :)
 
If you would have used smooth transitions as your example we would be talking about Digital Calipers right now.......:tongue:
 
Justturnin said:
If you would have used smooth transitions as your example we would be talking about Digital Calipers right now.......:tongue:
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:rotfl:

Maybe my mistake was using an example at all.

But I didn't I figured I would have just been pointed to the recent thread posted that discussed not launching personal attacks. I have seen these posts in the SOYP since that thread was posted.

:confused: PEANUT BUTTER EGG SNATCH! :confused:
 
I'm one who may frequently mention concerns of the photo along with the pen. But I also try to offer ways to make an improvement to get better results, which I'm always hopeful will help the poster as well as others that may read the thread.

I've read and heard many times that you shouldn't complain about something without also offering a solution that would fix what you're complaining about. It's kinda like what my dad used to say, "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all", with an exception of correction to address the complaint. So with that in mind, although I may comment on a photo, it's with a sincere desire of helping others with the addition of tips rather than to simply criticize.

As for posting photos of pens I've made, I too notice most of my own flaws in the pen better than most anyone would be able to see in photos, even with better than average photos. For me it's more about the satisfaction of sharing my work and interest with others that have the same interest, and the hope that some of my photos will serve as inspiration for people who are new to the hobby, as many of the photos I saw on here were to me. In fact I was a member for, I'm guessing a year, before I ever started posting photos or in the forums. Just stopping by occasionally to look at all the beautiful pen photos were an inspiration for me. So even if you don't get much out of posting photos of your work, there may well be many others who gain inspiration from it that you never hear from. So don't underestimate what impact you may have on someone else without ever knowing it.

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner
 
76winger said:
...I've read and heard many times that you shouldn't complain about something without also offering a solution that would fix what you're complaining about. It's kinda like what my dad used to say, "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all", with an exception of correction to address the complaint. So with that in mind, although I may comment on a photo, it's with a sincere desire of helping others with the addition of tips rather than to simply criticize...
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Well said sir!
 
It is the nature of the beast....

Ask just about any question and (I think but haven't counted) over half of the responses will a) answer a question you didn't ask. b) ask a question of their own c) answer the question asked by the other person d) disagree with a post that tries to answer the question you did ask e) refer you to the library.

None of that is terrible, nor is it unique to this forum, it is just part of human nature.

Edit: Before someone else mentions it - I am not immune from doing any of those things in my own responses.
 
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