How to glue finials onto a blank?

[mikeschn]

So, if I wanted to have a colored blank with black finials, how could I glue the finials onto the blank? Do they need to have a tenon, or can I just butt join them? What kind of glue would keep that together?

Mike...

 

[Oliver X]

A tenon would be much stronger than a butt joint, even if it's a very short tenon. Threading said tenon would be stronger yet. I use five minute set, two part epoxy for almost all of my acrylic, plastic or ebonite glue joints.

 

[jttheclockman]

If you are using tubes than wood to wood will work with wood glue. If using mismatched materials than epoxy is best bet. Epoxy tube in and it will never fall apart. Good luck.

 

[Dalecamino]

Absolutely a tenon and recess. Two part epoxy, and butt joints will only look nice for awhile. Until the inevitable occurs. I own such an animal. I keep it to remind me not to do that again.

 

[InkyMike]

Agreed tenons would be best - that said, I've been using epoxy on mine without tendons with good success. On some kits you can pop out the stock finial and there is still a bit of a ring left that helps protect it. I also epoxy from inside the cap if possible.

 

[mikeschn]

Well, my first attempt was a butt joint. I glued it up yesterday morning, and tried drilling and facing this morning. I used JB Weld clear epoxy, with a 3900PSI rated strength. The drilling went fine. Facing off, not so good. You can see what happened here!

 

[monophoto]

The problem is that this is an end-grain joint, and end-grain joints are weaker than face-grain joints. When you use a tenon, there is more surface area in the joint, as the sides of the tenons are face grain - in combination, they increase the joint strength dramatically.

 

[mikeschn]

Okay trying to save the pen. I drilled an 8mm hole, 12mm deep into each half. The 8mm brass tube can be my tenon! The converter actually fits through the 8mm tube, so that's a win. I'll find out tomorrow!

 

[jttheclockman]

Everyone is telling you to use a tenon and I will have to disagree with them unless you are doing a kitless pen. But if you are using a kit 2 things will happen you can easily drill away that tenon. second is you can make the tenon too large and when the blank is turned down it can show. Third is if you make the tenon just right and that is a job to get just right and in the right place, it can leave the outside of the blank too thin and then the tenon can show thru as say a tube if not painted.

One thing maybe lost here is your term finials. A finial is the end piece that is usually in the cap that many people like to pop out and replace with a matching piece of the blank. What you are showing to me is called end caps or end pieces. They can be called trim rings as well but whatever you call them they are segmented pieces.

Now my suggestion for doing a blank such as you are showing is to build the blank on the tube. I would cut your pieces close to the size you need for the design you want and do all drilling for tubes before glue up. Have all pieces surfaced properly and ready for end gluing. If you need to paint inside blank because of transparency do ahead of time. Now to make the blank as you glue all pieces together do so with glue also on the tube. Make sure you plug the end of tube so glue does not get in there. I like to use playdo for that. I also like to use System3 T88 epoxy. It has a long open time and needs 24 hours to dry and cure. You can use a clear 30 minute epoxy as well if using pieces that are transpaperent so glue lines do not show. But a good quality epoxy with a longer open time so you get all parts lined up and properly set so you can clamp and let dry overnight. Do not be in a rush. Building on a tube will save you the end drilling break aways as you shown. Good luck.

 

[jttheclockman]

See I am still confused with what you want to do because this photo you show a tube piece being used and you say converter which means fountain pen. Is this a kitless pen or are you using a kit? Because my explanation is designed for kit pens above. Will you be threading in the ends where tube is and many other questions come to mind.

 

[mikeschn]

Hey John,

Sorry for the confusion. This is on an Apollo Fountain pen, so roughly halfway to kitless! Ha! As for the finials, yeah, I get it... you could call them end caps too. For clarity, here are the types of finials I am gluing on. Yeah, I know they are normally screwed on, but I have to learn how to make tenons and cut threads before I get to that point. Also the size of the tenons is a very delicate issue, as you noted in your post.

 

[jttheclockman]

OK Mike that helps alot explaining what you are doing. Then by all means you need a method to attach an end cap or finial to the body because that will be a very vulnerable end or piece that can break off. So tenon, small piece of tube as you shown, threaded as you mentioned work also. In your example the transparency is very evident so whatever you do you need to keep that in mind. Along with that thought the depth of drilling for tenons or other fasteners needs to be paid attention. Good luck and show us the final product.

 

[monophoto]

The problem is that this is an end-grain joint, and end-grain joints are weaker than face-grain joints. When you use a tenon, there is more surface area in the joint, as the sides of the tenons are face grain - in combination, they increase the joint strength dramatically.

To add - the comments about end grain and side grain apply to wood, not plastics.
Tenons will add some strength to plastic joints, but a simply butt joint in plastic an be reasonably strong if you use the right adhesive.

 

[mikeschn]

Okay, you guys wanted to see the final product... Here it is...

 

[mikeschn]

@jttheclockman , @monophoto , @Dalecamino , @InkyMike @Oliver X ,

So what do you guys think? Was it worth gluing the finials onto the blank? I was able to get the pen out of 1 blank (not counting the finials). Plus I think it looks good. The next question is, do I do an accent ring? And what do I make the accent ring out of? White Pearl? Some kind of silver pen blank? Just wondering out loud over here!

 

[rixstix]

Washers punched from nickel sheet is a good start before graduating to silver.

 

[jttheclockman]

That came out real well. I like the blank and the end caps really set it off. Where did you get the blank and what is it called. I am always on the look out for well made blanks and that is one. Set with the black is a nice touch. So what do you call this a semi-kitless pen?

 

[mikeschn]

That came out real well. I like the blank and the end caps really set it off. Where did you get the blank and what is it called. I am always on the look out for well made blanks and that is one. Set with the black is a nice touch. So what do you call this a semi-kitless pen?

John,

Halfway to kitless I guess. It's the Apollo, which Kate sells over at Bullseye.

The blank is a Kirinite Oyster, which is available many places! The black blank was Acrylic Acetate, but I'm expecting my Alumilite black blanks to arrive tomorrow, and I'll try that next. You know, tenons and all! Ha!

Kirinite Pen Blank - Oyster

Kirinite is an eye-catching acrylic pen blank material that features a very bright, vibrant coloring. It was specially created to be hard-wearing and very durable. Kirinite is often found being used in high-end knife handles, handgun grips, and of course in pen making! Yet Kirinite is very easy...

www.exoticblanks.com

BTW, my initial interest in finials is the fact that the Apollo kit needs 6" of blank length, and I had some blanks that were only 5" long, and no way to get longer blanks, or more blanks...

 

[jttheclockman]

John,

Halfway to kitless I guess. It's the Apollo, which Kate sells over at Bullseye.

The blank is a Kirinite Oyster, which is available many places! The black blank was Acrylic Acetate, but I'm expecting my Alumilite black blanks to arrive tomorrow, and I'll try that next. You know, tenons and all! Ha!

BTW, my initial interest in finials is the fact that the Apollo kit needs 6" of blank length, and I had some blanks that were only 5" long, and no way to get longer blanks, or more blanks...

Thanks will have to check those blanks out.

 

[Oliver X]

I think it turned out quite nice.

 

[derekdd]

Okay, you guys wanted to see the final product... Here it is...

View attachment 352044

View attachment 352045

I like it. The black end caps really compliment the acrylic blank. Nicely done!

This guy turned an Artemis kit (Bullseye) and winds up using a butt jointed piece of ebony because he accidentally drilled out the end of the cap. Makes me wonder how long that joint will last.

 

[jttheclockman]

Too many unkowns to answer your query. Is there a piece of tube within that end cap and if so that will give it support. What type glue was used. If CA that is a brittle glue and if no tube then a right hit could dislodge the cap. There is no pressure on the cap so unless a drop occurs just right then it should be fine.

 

[mikeschn]

If the cap is short enough, the delrin sleeve fits into the finial, acting as a tenon of sorts. So if he used a good glue, he should be fine. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like his cap is short enough...