Flat/Cole Jaw Size question

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ImEricToo

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Hello All,

New turner here. Worked on about 8 pens and a bowl and having a blast. Have an 8x12 lathe (Wen 3421 - for a beginner turner/lathe, actually a very decent lathe). Turned by bowl leaving a small 'indent' at the bottom for the jaws to hold into. Would like to eventually 'graduate' to a flat bottomed bowl by purchasing a Flat/Cole jaw. Issue is I see many different Jawas measured at 8 1/4 inch (even for my model - Barracuda 2). I'm a little baffled. With that standard measurements, why would a flat/Cole jaw have a measurement 1/4" TOO large? To me that is like buying a car with 18" wheels and they only make 18.25" tires....lol

I must be missing something. Again - major newbie. :)

Thanks a bunch,
Eric
 
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monophoto

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Eric

Scroll chucks and Cole jaws are one class of products. Lathes are another. They work together, but the range of use of one product may exceed the range of use of a different product.

My first lathe was a small (7x12) minilathe. I bought a PSI Utility Chuck that came with Cole jaws to use with it - and found that the throw dimension on the lathe limited how far I could expand the Cole jaws. And the problem wasn't limited to using the jaws at its largest diameter on larger bowls. As you know, the buttons on Cole jaws can be inserted at a variety of radiuses up to whatever is the maximum for the jaws, but because the jaws couldn't open fully, the range of application of every button position was limited. That was a bummer, but I marked it up to the fact that my minilathe was intended for turning pens and other small items, while the chuck and its associated Cole jaws were intended for the use in making bowls and other larger stuff. Eventually, I sold the minilathe and bought a 12" Turncrafter whose capabilities were a close match to the chuck and Cole jaws.

PSI does offer a small set of Cole jaws that might be more compatible with your lathe, but my advice would be to not go that route - you are likely to upgrade to a larger lathe (and perhaps sooner than you expect), so do make a purchase now that will have limited use later on.

It would not be difficult to make your own Cole jaws sized to match your lathe, and you could probably do this for less than $50, and even less if you already have some of the materials. If you keep the investment low, the fact that the jaws might be less useful if you upgrade to a larger lathe will be less painful. Use 1/2" cabinet-grade birch plywood for the jaws, and t-nuts to attach the buttons. Note that the machine screws that hold the buttons must match the t-nuts, but don't have to have the same threading as the machine screws that attach the jaw plates to the chuck slider (on Barracuda chucks, the slider screws are metric). Make the four jaws as a solid plywood circle, locate and drill holes for the mounting screws and t-nuts before cutting the circle into four quadrants.

PSI's 'C' Cole jaws use pins that are essentially cap screws with a flat-sided rubber sleeve. There are other brands (that probably won't match Barracuda chucks) that have rubber buttons with a dovetail profile that probably grip better because they conform to the shape of the bowl being turned. Commercial Cole-jaws are designed to use eight pins or buttons, and are designed to be used at a maximum of 600 r/min. Most turners also try to use tailstock support as much as possible when using Cole jaws. I think it should be possible to get away with only four dovetail buttons provided they are made of rubber, and provided that standard usage precautions are followed - especially when using the jaws to hold smaller-diameter turnings. However, that is a safety issue so the choice to take that step must be left to the user.

Finally, if you are doing really small work, it is possible to make up a set of buttons that attach directly to the sliders on your chuck, eliminating the plate altogether. Again, be aware that you would need machine screws that match the threading on the chuck sliders (on my "C" utility chuck, the slider screws are M5-0.8).
 
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leehljp

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I do not have the definitive answer but will give my thoughts. Cole jaws and chucks have been around a long time. Pen turning has been around a relative shorter time. In another topic/thread that is being replied to now, pen turning with an available kit or two got started in the 80s with a move to mini lathes in the late 90's at best and more so in the early 2000's. The Mini lathes for pens were/are made primarily for small diameters and not with "Cole Jaws" in mind. Cole Jaws were probably made with 12" minimum diameter lathes in mind.

I have a 12" rikon lathe but learned quickly that 12" was not practical for bowls. Roughed out, I better not exceed 11 1/2 at the most.

8 1/4 inches was probably based on a somewhat common small bowl diameter to fit on a 10" or 12" lathe before mini lathes were developed. Cole jaws were around long before mini lathes became common, although there were probably some mini lathes around for other uses rather than pens or for Cole jaws. Just my thoughts.
 

ImEricToo

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Eric

Scroll chucks and Cole jaws are one class of products. Lathes are another. They work together, but the range of use of one product may exceed the range of use of a different product.

My first lathe was a small (7x12) minilathe. I bought a PSI Utility Chuck that came with Cole jaws to use with it - and found that the throw dimension on the lathe limited how far I could expand the Cole jaws. And the problem wasn't limited to using the jaws at its largest diameter on larger bowls. As you know, the buttons on Cole jaws can be inserted at a variety of radiuses up to whatever is the maximum for the jaws, but because the jaws couldn't open fully, the range of application of every button position was limited. That was a bummer, but I marked it up to the fact that my minilathe was intended for turning pens and other small items, while the chuck and its associated Cole jaws were intended for the use in making bowls and other larger stuff. Eventually, I sold the minilathe and bought a 12" Turncrafter whose capabilities were a close match to the chuck and Cole jaws.

PSI does offer a small set of Cole jaws that might be more compatible with your lathe, but my advice would be to not go that route - you are likely to upgrade to a larger lathe (and perhaps sooner than you expect), so do make a purchase now that will have limited use later on.

It would not be difficult to make your own Cole jaws sized to match your lathe, and you could probably do this for less than $50, and even less if you already have some of the materials. If you keep the investment low, the fact that the jaws might be less useful if you upgrade to a larger lathe will be less painful. Use 1/2" cabinet-grade birch plywood for the jaws, and t-nuts to attach the buttons. Note that the machine screws that hold the buttons must match the t-nuts, but don't have to have the same threading as the machine screws that attach the jaw plates to the chuck slider (on Barracuda chucks, the slider screws are metric). Make the four jaws as a solid plywood circle, locate and drill holes for the mounting screws and t-nuts before cutting the circle into four quadrants.

PSI's 'C' Cole jaws use pins that are essentially cap screws with a flat-sided rubber sleeve. There are other brands (that probably won't match Barracuda chucks) that have rubber buttons with a dovetail profile that probably grip better because they conform to the shape of the bowl being turned. Commercial Cole-jaws are designed to use eight pins or buttons, and are designed to be used at a maximum of 600 r/min. Most turners also try to use tailstock support as much as possible when using Cole jaws. I think it should be possible to get away with only four dovetail buttons provided they are made of rubber, and provided that standard usage precautions are followed - especially when using the jaws to hold smaller-diameter turnings. However, that is a safety issue so the choice to take that step must be left to the user.

Finally, if you are doing really small work, it is possible to make up a set of buttons that attach directly to the sliders on your chuck, eliminating the plate altogether. Again, be aware that you would need machine screws that match the threading on the chuck sliders (on my "C" utility chuck, the slider screws are M5-0.8).
Wow - a lot of very good info and things to think about. I will think outside the box like this and see what I come up with. I may just hold off and work on bowls without the Cole chuck for now and worry about it when I upgrade to a large lathe. Thanks!
 

ImEricToo

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Wow - a lot of very good info and things to think about. I will think outside the box like this and see what I come up with. I may just hold off and work on bowls without the Cole chuck for now and worry about it when I upgrade to a large lathe. Thanks!
I do not have the definitive answer but will give my thoughts. Cole jaws and chucks have been around a long time. Pen turning has been around a relative shorter time. In another topic/thread that is being replied to now, pen turning with an available kit or two got started in the 80s with a move to mini lathes in the late 90's at best and more so in the early 2000's. The Mini lathes for pens were/are made primarily for small diameters and not with "Cole Jaws" in mind. Cole Jaws were probably made with 12" minimum diameter lathes in mind.

I have a 12" rikon lathe but learned quickly that 12" was not practical for bowls. Roughed out, I better not exceed 11 1/2 at the most.

8 1/4 inches was probably based on a somewhat common small bowl diameter to fit on a 10" or 12" lathe before mini lathes were developed. Cole jaws were around long before mini lathes became common, although there were probably some mini lathes around for other uses rather than pens or for Cole jaws. Just my thoughts.
Never thought of that at all. That completely makes sense!! Thanks bunch!
 

monophoto

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I may just hold off and work on bowls without the Cole chuck for now and worry about it when I upgrade to a large lathe. Thanks!
It's all about Flaying Felines (the many ways to skin a cat) -

The normal sequence when turning bowls is to mount the blank using a wood worm screw while turning the outside/bottom and creating a mounting tenon. Then, the bowl is reversed into a chuck which grips the tenon while turning the top/interior. Finally, the bowl is reversed again onto Cole jaws to remove the tenon. And as noted above, safety-conscious turners typically use the tailstock to hold the bowl in the Cole jaws while reducing the tenon to a small central nub. At that point there is a choice - back off the tailstock while turning away the nub, or remove the bowl from the Cole jaws and carve away the nub using a bench chisel and sandpaper.

If you are in the latter camp, you don't really need Cole jaws. Instead, you can use the tailstock to press it into a wooden face plate (or a piece of plywood or even MDF attached to a faceplate) while removing the tenon to leave the nub. Alternatively, instead of a faceplace, you could use a jam chuck (which is merely a piece of waste wood that has been turned to have a profile that matches the inside of the bowl. In either case, put a layer of paper towel between the bowl and the faceplate or jam chuck to prevent marring.

Cole jaws are a convenience - not necessarily a 'must have' tool.
 

Curly

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Look up jam/jamb chucks and doughnut chucks. You use them with your faceplate, that's likely sitting around gathering dust, and cost next to nothing to make.
 

ImEricToo

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It's all about Flaying Felines (the many ways to skin a cat) -

The normal sequence when turning bowls is to mount the blank using a wood worm screw while turning the outside/bottom and creating a mounting tenon. Then, the bowl is reversed into a chuck which grips the tenon while turning the top/interior. Finally, the bowl is reversed again onto Cole jaws to remove the tenon. And as noted above, safety-conscious turners typically use the tailstock to hold the bowl in the Cole jaws while reducing the tenon to a small central nub. At that point there is a choice - back off the tailstock while turning away the nub, or remove the bowl from the Cole jaws and carve away the nub using a bench chisel and sandpaper.

If you are in the latter camp, you don't really need Cole jaws. Instead, you can use the tailstock to press it into a wooden face plate (or a piece of plywood or even MDF attached to a faceplate) while removing the tenon to leave the nub. Alternatively, instead of a faceplace, you could use a jam chuck (which is merely a piece of waste wood that has been turned to have a profile that matches the inside of the bowl. In either case, put a layer of paper towel between the bowl and the faceplate or jam chuck to prevent marring.

Cole jaws are a convenience - not necessarily a 'must have' tool.
Great info and advise - Thanks!
 

RobS

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Nova does sell a mini set, which i used on my Jet 1221vs:

 

sorcerertd

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I do have both that lathe and the mini cole jaws. Here's the thing, though. I have not used the cole jaws on the Wen. After trying to turn a bowl on it, I bought a used Jet 1014. As for the cole jaws, I bought them after getting the Jet. I did ask about those mini cole jaws for the 8x12 Wen at my local Klingspoors and was told that you really need a 10"swing for the 8" jaws. I suspect you can't really open them much. Now that you have mentioned it, I'll have to test fit the chuck with them on the Wen.

The Wen is great for pens and small spindles (magic wands), but underpowered for anything bigger. I kept tripping the overload on it. I'm sure it could be done with light cuts. The Wen is a nice little lathe, but I rarely use it now. Aside from the swing size and the low torque, the biggest issue I have with the Wen is that MT1 accessories are very limited. It was a great starter lathe, especially at the price point.

For anyone interested, the holes in these Wen cole jaws fit my Nova G3 chuck perfectly. They're less than $25 bucks. The countersink is a little shallow in the holes, so you'll need to drill the countersink just a little deeper or get longer bolts.
 

ImEricToo

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Nova does sell a mini set, which i used on my Jet 1221vs:

I should mention that I have a Barracuda 2 - in fact just ordered it as it got very good reviews for beginners and it comes with 4 jaws (arriving tomorrow). So being that the Cole jaws aren't necessary for my very newbie level, I think I will be good with the way I am working now (small 'indent' at bottom of bowl) or use the donut/jam method mentioned in this thread - something new to learn.

BTW - I had the wen chuck - la4444 - but the 'tommy' bars are unbearable for me. Especially when I am try to hold something in place.

Really appreciate everyone's advise, info and education. I am gathering so much great stuff from penturners.org. Great group of people. No one looks down on you for newbie mistakes and/or questions. Very welcoming group!!

Thanks again!!!
 

JimB

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Another option, although more expensive is a vacuum chuck. A vacuum chuck is much more versatile. I have both a vacuum chuck and Cole jaws (3 sets) and rarely use the Cole jaws.
 

sorcerertd

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Sorry to be so slow with this, but here are a couple pictures of the mini cole jaws on the Wen. The one taken of the face is open as far as it can go, maybe ⅛" from the bed. I have no idea if the banjo will accommodate that.
20220410_141021.jpg 20220410_140941.jpg
 

monophoto

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I have no idea if the banjo will accommodate that.
Todd

The swing specifications for lathes never take into account the height of the banjo above the bedways; some manufacturers will add a footnote in their literature that describes the height of the banjo, but even that is quite rare.

Its not unusual for a workpiece to be so large that the banjo can't fit underneath it. In the case of face-plate turning (bowls, platters, etc), that's not a problem as long as the turner understands that when the banjo is positioned on one side of the turning, it won't be possible to move it to the opposite side without first removing the workpiece from the headstock spindle. That's a minor nuisance.

About the only time there would really be an issue is when turning a spindle that is so large that the banjo can't slip beneath the workpiece. For example, turning a large vessel such as a vase or burial urn.

Cole jaws are normally used when removing mounting tenons or recesses and finishing the bottoms of bowls, platters or other face-grain orientation pieces. In this situaiton, it would be rare for the height of the banjo to be a problem as long as the jaws don't interfere with the bedways.
 

ImEricToo

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Todd

The swing specifications for lathes never take into account the height of the banjo above the bedways; some manufacturers will add a footnote in their literature that describes the height of the banjo, but even that is quite rare.

Its not unusual for a workpiece to be so large that the banjo can't fit underneath it. In the case of face-plate turning (bowls, platters, etc), that's not a problem as long as the turner understands that when the banjo is positioned on one side of the turning, it won't be possible to move it to the opposite side without first removing the workpiece from the headstock spindle. That's a minor nuisance.

About the only time there would really be an issue is when turning a spindle that is so large that the banjo can't slip beneath the workpiece. For example, turning a large vessel such as a vase or burial urn.

Cole jaws are normally used when removing mounting tenons or recesses and finishing the bottoms of bowls, platters or other face-grain orientation pieces. In this situaiton, it would be rare for the height of the banjo to be a problem as long as the jaws don't interfere with the bedways.
Thanks - great info!
 

sorcerertd

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Todd

The swing specifications for lathes never take into account the height of the banjo above the bedways; some manufacturers will add a footnote in their literature that describes the height of the banjo, but even that is quite rare.

Its not unusual for a workpiece to be so large that the banjo can't fit underneath it. In the case of face-plate turning (bowls, platters, etc), that's not a problem as long as the turner understands that when the banjo is positioned on one side of the turning, it won't be possible to move it to the opposite side without first removing the workpiece from the headstock spindle. That's a minor nuisance.

About the only time there would really be an issue is when turning a spindle that is so large that the banjo can't slip beneath the workpiece. For example, turning a large vessel such as a vase or burial urn.

Cole jaws are normally used when removing mounting tenons or recesses and finishing the bottoms of bowls, platters or other face-grain orientation pieces. In this situaiton, it would be rare for the height of the banjo to be a problem as long as the jaws don't interfere with the bedways.
Thanks Louie. I wasn't so much referring to fitting under the workpiece, but in being able to slide out far enough to reach the outer edges, esp if you need to angle it.
 

sorcerertd

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Thanks! Is that the 3421 lathe? Also, what model/manufacturer Cole jaws?
I think that is the version previous to yours? The chuck is a Nova G3. The jaw info is below
For anyone interested, the holes in these Wen cole jaws fit my Nova G3 chuck perfectly. They're less than $25 bucks. The countersink is a little shallow in the holes, so you'll need to drill the countersink just a little deeper or get longer bolts.
 

ImEricToo

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I think that is the version previous to yours? The chuck is a Nova G3. The jaw info is below
Received the wen 432f Cole jaws today. put on my prior wen 'breaker bars' type chuck after drilling out the mounting/screw holes on the Cole jaws (was a MINISCULE amount to drill out). As mentioned, the counter sink isn't deep enough, but seems like the screws are grabbing enough even though they stick up slightly). Also not PERFECTLY in true, but for less than $23 as well as now using my old chuck this is a great setup. Thanks again for the suggestion!!!
 
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