First time applying CA with cracks on pressing

[sequoia]

Hi All,

I haven't turned in many years and finally got the urge to start a holiday present. I turned a piece of Koa I picked-up a long time ago when I was in Hawaii. Never tried a CA finish before and I was really impressed with the results and depth that it adds to Koa. Unfortunately, when I had pressed the pen together, parts of the finish started (mostly towards the ends) to crack and I'd like your thoughts on what I could do differently next time to avoid this.

Prior to applying the CA, I dry sanded to 1500 and applied some EEE ultrashine.

I then I used some old (5 year plus) PSI CA thin for finishing and built-up at least 10 coats and used an activator. The CA glue was kept in the fridge all this time and never dried-up. I applied the CA using paper towels and lowered the lathe to it's lowest speed.

Afterwards, I started off with 600 grit to 1500 and then wet sanded with micro mesh up to 12000.

I'm really not sure what was the culprit for the cracking during pressing, but I would appreciate any tips and critiques.

I'm not adversed to trying another glue or combination of glues if that will eleviate the cracking.

Thank you,

Matt

 

[KenB259]

If you have CA that overhangs the ends, it will cause cracking. I sand it back down before pressing using the same method as squaring the blank, but with the sander off. I use a sanding jig, not a barrel trimmer.

 

[Monty]

Did the CA actually crack or just separate from the blank? A picture would help?

 

[d_bondi]

Is only the CA cracked, did the wood crack/split as well? As Monty noted, a picture would help.

 

[sequoia]

Thank you all for the replies. Here's some photos. I do not believe that the wood cracked. More or less the pressure uplifted the glue, perhaps.

 

[KenB259]

First picture looks like both cracked, second picture looks like CA lifted from having an overhang.

 

[d_bondi]

I'm with Ken on this. Did you re-surface the ends of the blank after finishing the CA? I always do this before polishing, and like Ken, use a sanding jig, not a barrel trimmer.

The reason I asked about if the wood split is that is usually the piece being pressed in being too tight into the tube. Different issue.

 

[sequoia]

Thanks, but I did not resurface the ends of the blanks after finishing the CA and pressing.

So you would dismount the pen from the mandrel, resurface the edges (sand) and the remount to sand and polish?
I was thinking that I might not have applied enough CA or perhaps used an incorrect type.

 

[KenB259]

Thanks, but I did not resurface the ends of the blanks after finishing the CA and pressing.

So you would dismount the pen from the mandrel, resurface the edges (sand) and the remount to sand and polish?
I was thinking that I might not have applied enough CA or perhaps used an incorrect type.

I sand the ends down after I put on the final CA coat. Put it back on the lathe to do the final polishing. Also on oily woods, it's helpful to clean the blank with acetone to remove some of that oil, not possible on some blanks, segmented ones come to mind, but pens of one wood species, it's helpful.

 

[sequoia]

Thank you - My sander appears to be able to accomodate this type of jig.

Is this what you or others have used? Also, what grit are you using with the sander (disc side)?

Barrel Trimming Sleeve Set and Pen Blank Squaring Jig

Trimming Sleeve Set and Squaring Jig Combination SeT. The 9 sleeve sizes will insert into tube sizes: 8mm, 11/32 in., 3/8 in., 10mm* , 25/64, 10.5mm, 27/64 in., 15/32 in., 31/64 in., 12.5mm, 33/64 in., 9/16 in., 37/64 in. (some sleeves will work with multiple tubes). Packed in carry case with inst

www.pennstateind.com

 

[d_bondi]

Thank you - My sander appears to be able to accomodate this type of jig.

Is this what you or others have used? Also, what grit are you using with the sander (disc side)?

Barrel Trimming Sleeve Set and Pen Blank Squaring Jig

Trimming Sleeve Set and Squaring Jig Combination SeT. The 9 sleeve sizes will insert into tube sizes: 8mm, 11/32 in., 3/8 in., 10mm* , 25/64, 10.5mm, 27/64 in., 15/32 in., 31/64 in., 12.5mm, 33/64 in., 9/16 in., 37/64 in. (some sleeves will work with multiple tubes). Packed in carry case with inst

www.pennstateind.com

I am using THIS one that I got from Turners Warehouse. This jig works with the miter attachment from my sander and my punch set. You don't need sleeves, just select the proper diameter punch, put it in the jig and away you go.

BUT that was before I found out about what Rick Herrell makes. Rick's works on your lathe. I was already setup with the above before learning about Rick's Offset Sanding Jig (scroll down).

Check them both out and see which one will work best for you.

I use 150 grit, and a light touch. You can definitely hear the difference when you get to the brass tube.

 

[KenB259]

Thank you - My sander appears to be able to accomodate this type of jig.

Is this what you or others have used? Also, what grit are you using with the sander (disc side)?

Barrel Trimming Sleeve Set and Pen Blank Squaring Jig

Trimming Sleeve Set and Squaring Jig Combination SeT. The 9 sleeve sizes will insert into tube sizes: 8mm, 11/32 in., 3/8 in., 10mm* , 25/64, 10.5mm, 27/64 in., 15/32 in., 31/64 in., 12.5mm, 33/64 in., 9/16 in., 37/64 in. (some sleeves will work with multiple tubes). Packed in carry case with inst

www.pennstateind.com

Its basically the same setup I have, I just made my own and I usually have 80 grint on there.

 

[Ray-CA]

I have a small (6x6x0.75) piece of plate glass and put a section of 800 grit wet/dry sand paper on it. Gently lap the blank end on the paper after sanding the finish but before final polishing.

 

[sequoia]

I have a small (6x6x0.75) piece of plate glass and put a section of 800 grit wet/dry sand paper on it. Gently lap the blank end on the paper after sanding the finish but before final polishing.

That's a great idea. I might try that first until I get a jig.

 

[sequoia]

I know this most likely belongs on another thread, but what is a good reputable CA glue to use? I think perhaps, even though I applied ten coats of PSI thin, I must have sanded it down too much that even some painters tape lifted a section off.

Generally, do you apply a thinner coat first and then the thicker?

 

[d_bondi]

I know this most likely belongs on another thread, but what is a good reputable CA glue to use? I think perhaps, even though I applied ten coats of PSI thin, I must have sanded it down too much that even some painters tape lifted a section off.

Generally, do you apply a thinner coat first and then the thicker?

Matt, first, make sure that you clean the blank before using any CA, if you don't, you risk the CA not adhearing well. I use DNA (denatured alcohol), and sometimes Acetone. The I use 4 coats of thin. The thin does a much better job of soaking into the wood. After that, I do anywhere between 8-12 coats of medium CA. Depends on the wood and if I'm trying to fill the grain/pores, checks, in the wood, etc.

I have been using Starbond and am happy with it.

Others on this forum have far more experience with CA than I, this is just my experience.

 

[KenB259]

I'm a GluBoost fan for finishing.

 

[sequoia]

Matt, first, make sure that you clean the blank before using any CA, if you don't, you risk the CA not adhearing well. I use DNA (denatured alcohol), and sometimes Acetone. The I use 4 coats of thin. The thin does a much better job of soaking into the wood. After that, I do anywhere between 8-12 coats of medium CA. Depends on the wood and if I'm trying to fill the grain/pores, checks, in the wood, etc.

I have been using Starbond and am happy with it.

Others on this forum have far more experience with CA than I, this is just my experience.

Thank you - Do you, or anyone else think the EEE ultrashine may have impacted the integrity of the adhesion of the CA to the blank? I just noticed such a really nice luster to the wood with the EEE before applying the CA.

 

[d_bondi]

Thank you - Do you, or anyone else think the EEE ultrashine may have impacted the integrity of the adhesion of the CA to the blank? I just noticed such a really nice luster to the wood with the EEE before applying the CA.

I'm not familiar with that product, sorry.

 

[jrista]

Thank you - Do you, or anyone else think the EEE ultrashine may have impacted the integrity of the adhesion of the CA to the blank? I just noticed such a really nice luster to the wood with the EEE before applying the CA.

If you want to maximize chatoyance (the grain shimmer), just use oil. Pure walnut oil, clear, and I use the Drs Woodshop brand (Mahoneys is too amber and colors the wood which I'm not a huge fan of), friction polish it into your blank. In fact, what I normally do is wet sand with the walnut oil from 800 grit or so up to whatever maximum I sand to, which ensures that the oil penetrates the grain. The heat of friction will help this polymerize. Give it some time to cure a bit as well...the heat helps, but time helps as well. Then finish with CA over the oil. This will really bring out the chatoyance.

I wouldn't use anything else as an undercoat for CA. Even Gluboost, which is what I use. Waxes in particular, shellac, aren't great for aherance, and you could get separation down the road even if initially it seems ok. However, CA glues and oils can polymerize together (in fact, there is a way of finishing with BLO and CA mixed together on the applicator, then applied to the wood). A BLO+CA finish is a different kind of polymer than just CA. Its got a softer more rubbery feel, and it cures faster but in a less...problematic way (i.e. it doesn't tend to grab fibers or parts of the applicator during application, like pure CA can if you don't remove the applicator soon enough). So an oil undercoat should in fact bond with the CA.

I have also used GluBoost Ultra Thin fill'n'finish, which penetrates into the wood as well, along with the oil, and produces a very nice base coat on which to build up your final finish.

 

[jttheclockman]

Thank you - Do you, or anyone else think the EEE ultrashine may have impacted the integrity of the adhesion of the CA to the blank? I just noticed such a really nice luster to the wood with the EEE before applying the CA.

Absolutely it did and will. Do not use a film barrier product under CA. If you want to bring out or pop color use a Boiled Linseed oil and make sure it is dry before you do your CA and that is usually 24 hours. Just doing CA will darken the wood and highlight to some degree. You should always do trial runs before committing to final product. Just so you get a feel and a look. You should use about 2 to 3 coats of thin CA and then sand till all pen is dull again and make sure you sand with the grain on final sanding passes. Then top coat with 4 to 5 coats of medium CA. If you choose Gluboost I am not a user so will leave that to others. I use and love Satellite City CA glues. been using over 15 years and never a problem. When polishing with MM always sand with grain after each grit size with lathe off and then wipe off. Always wet sand when MM. Preserves the MM pads and also makes sanding go smoother. These are my tips and as I said been using a long time. Look up my album and you will see many examples of a nice shine on a pen. If wet sanding always seal the ends of the pen blank with thin CA to prevent problems later on. Good luck.

 

[bugradx2]

I know this most likely belongs on another thread, but what is a good reputable CA glue to use? I think perhaps, even though I applied ten coats of PSI thin, I must have sanded it down too much that even some painters tape lifted a section off.

Generally, do you apply a thinner coat first and then the thicker?

another vote for GluBoost. I usually apply a two coats of medium and then 5 or 6 thin. All of them with a rolled up paper towel.

I'll also chime in that I've had the exact same issue you're talking about in your original post. I've found two things that have helped me prevent this. First one is to resand the ends of the blank to remove any CA glue that may be on the end. I sand all my blanks flush on a disc sander and have the jig so i just very lightly put it back on there to do it. I found I wasn't an accurate 90 degrees if I did it by hand. Secondly, make sure your press is driving straight and that you are using just enough pressure to seat everything and no more.

As I've quit trying to be the hulk and have clean ends this issue has gone away for me.

Happy turning

 

[derekdd]

I know this most likely belongs on another thread, but what is a good reputable CA glue to use? I think perhaps, even though I applied ten coats of PSI thin, I must have sanded it down too much that even some painters tape lifted a section off.

Generally, do you apply a thinner coat first and then the thicker?

I use Starbond thin for most woods. Clean the surface with DNA first. The first coat acts like a sanding sealer then the 2nd provides a consistent layer. From there, I use Starbond medium with accelerator in between each coat. I typically go 6 coats overall for inexpensive pens like slimlines, and 10 coats for pens where I'm charging $80 or more.

I sand off the fingernail of CA glue on a piece of 120 grit I have laying on my work bench before remounting the regular bushings for wet sanding 800-12,000. I've been tempted to switch to GluBoost due to the recommendations here but Starbond has been a great product.

 

[michaelperez]

Hi All,

I haven't turned in many years and finally got the urge to start a holiday present. I turned a piece of Koa I picked-up a long time ago when I was in Hawaii. Never tried a CA finish before and I was really impressed with the results and depth that it adds to Koa. Unfortunately, when I had pressed the pen together, parts of the finish started (mostly towards the ends) to crack and I'd like your thoughts on what I could do differently next time to avoid this.

Prior to applying the CA, I dry sanded to 1500 and applied some EEE ultrashine.

I then I used some old (5 year plus) PSI CA thin for finishing and built-up at least 10 coats and used an activator. The CA glue was kept in the fridge all this time and never dried-up. I applied the CA using paper towels and lowered the lathe to it's lowest speed.

Afterwards, I started off with 600 grit to 1500 and then wet sanded with micro mesh up to 12000.

I'm really not sure what was the culprit for the cracking during pressing, but I would appreciate any tips and critiques.

I'm not adversed to trying another glue or combination of glues if that will eleviate the cracking.

Thank you,

Matt

Hello, I'm a beginner and I also was about to use EEE ULTRA SHINE before CA but when i asked the seller CS, they answered me to use one or other because it could react or maybe not being compatible.

Then after some research and asking questions also in this forum someone mentioned a flexible CA, so I bought an odorless bob smith ca glue that is also flexible and at least for me feel better quality.

And as many folks mentioned above dismount the pen from the mandrel, resurface the edges (sand) also could be a factor for cracking.
Maybe it was too polished with EEE that closed the wood pores and the adhesion was more prone to crack

And maybe some one with more experience can confirm that regular thin CA glue is more bristle and pron to crack.

 

[Todd in PA]

I'll add an additional chore to consider. After sanding the barrel ends, reseal the end grain! You don't want the wood taking in moisture. I drip a few drops of thin CA onto a folded blue towel, and dab the ends in the barrel to create a new seal after sanding.

 

[michaelperez]

I'll add an additional chore to consider. After sanding the barrel ends, reseal the end grain! You don't want the wood taking in moisture. I drip a few drops of thin CA onto a folded blue towel, and dab the ends in the barrel to create a new seal after sanding.

Thank you so much for the tip let's keep learning

 

[RunnerVince]

I have a small (6x6x0.75) piece of plate glass and put a section of 800 grit wet/dry sand paper on it. Gently lap the blank end on the paper after sanding the finish but before final polishing.

That's a great idea. I might try that first until I get a jig.

Whatever method you use, being gentle is the key. It's entirely possible with too aggressive a sandpaper or too heavy a hand to create the delamination you're trying to avoid.

 

[RunnerVince]

I know this most likely belongs on another thread, but what is a good reputable CA glue to use? I think perhaps, even though I applied ten coats of PSI thin, I must have sanded it down too much that even some painters tape lifted a section off.

Generally, do you apply a thinner coat first and then the thicker?

I've seen a couple other people recommend Starbond, and I'll second, third, or fourth that. I've been using it for almost five years now, and don't really see a need for anything else. I usually just use the thin -- 8 to 10 coats -- unless I need to fill in the grain or have some minor tearout to address.

 

[sequoia]

Thank you all for the feedback. I stopped getting updates to this thread for some reason and was surprised to see how many additional replies there were. I ordered some Starbond thin and medium from Amazon to test with. I'll try without the EEE ultrashine next time and perhaps will wipe/clean the blank with acetone or walnut oil before applying the CA thin.

I have a barrel trimmer that fits inside the brass tube and spins on a drill. Either my blanks are not truly squared up or the drill press isn't aligned, but sometimes I'll enter center of the blank and come out a little off on the other end. I started mounting the blanks with the brass tubes in a vise and using a powered hand drill to trim the blanks using the brass tube to guide me down. I felt that this was a better approach then trying to mount the blank into a vise and trim the wood using the drill press as the wood/brass tube would have to be aligned with the press and I'm not sure the vise could accomodate that if it's not perfectly squared.

Has anyone else noticed this and without using the trimming jig for sanding is my approach logical?

Thanks again,

Matt

 

[d_bondi]

Thank you all for the feedback. I stopped getting updates to this thread for some reason and was surprised to see how many additional replies there were. I ordered some Starbond thin and medium from Amazon to test with. I'll try without the EEE ultrashine next time and perhaps will wipe/clean the blank with acetone or walnut oil before applying the CA thin.

I have a barrel trimmer that fits inside the brass tube and spins on a drill. Either my blanks are not truly squared up or the drill press isn't aligned, but sometimes I'll enter center of the blank and come out a little off on the other end. I started mounting the blanks with the brass tubes in a vise and using a powered hand drill to trim the blanks using the brass tube to guide me down. I felt that this was a better approach then trying to mount the blank into a vise and trim the wood using the drill press as the wood/brass tube would have to be aligned with the press and I'm not sure the vise could accomodate that if it's not perfectly squared.

Has anyone else noticed this and without using the trimming jig for sanding is my approach logical?

Thanks again,

Matt

That alignment issue you are talking about is one of the reasons many switch to a sanding jig. That and no need for all the different tube bushings for the trimmer.

The reason for re-facing (sanding) the ends after CA is that any CA build up on the ends will cause the CA to separate when the components are pressed tight.

 

[RunnerVince]

Thank you all for the feedback. I stopped getting updates to this thread for some reason and was surprised to see how many additional replies there were. I ordered some Starbond thin and medium from Amazon to test with. I'll try without the EEE ultrashine next time and perhaps will wipe/clean the blank with acetone or walnut oil before applying the CA thin.

I have a barrel trimmer that fits inside the brass tube and spins on a drill. Either my blanks are not truly squared up or the drill press isn't aligned, but sometimes I'll enter center of the blank and come out a little off on the other end. I started mounting the blanks with the brass tubes in a vise and using a powered hand drill to trim the blanks using the brass tube to guide me down. I felt that this was a better approach then trying to mount the blank into a vise and trim the wood using the drill press as the wood/brass tube would have to be aligned with the press and I'm not sure the vise could accomodate that if it's not perfectly squared.

Has anyone else noticed this and without using the trimming jig for sanding is my approach logical?

Thanks again,

Matt

Keep in mind that your blanks may not actually be square. They're not always perfect when you buy them, and homemade or bought, if you don't use them right away, wood moves. A blank that's square on Monday may not be on Tuesday or Wednesday. So when you say that you start drilling from the center of one side and come out off-center on the other side, that unfortunately doesn't mean as much as you might think unless you verified the blank was straight and square immediately prior to drilling. If your tube will insert into the hole you've drilled without having to be forced, then your hole is straight enough. For a single-material blank, the only thing you have to worry about is whether there's enough wood left on the off-center end for actually turning. Drilling center to center becomes vital with segmented work, and occasionally if you're trying to achieve an effect with extremely straight grain, and a few other niche cases, but I wouldn't worry about it now unless you're trying to work toward doing those niche cases, in which case, start practicing now.

As @d_bondi said, the issue you describe is the reason many switch to a sanding jig. I'm a little surprised you've gotten better results doing it with a hand drill than a drill press. It's possible your drill press table isn't square to your drill, and that may or may not be adjustable/fixable depending on the make/model of the press. It's more likely, as I described above, that your blanks are not truly straight/square.

We're far afield of your original question. Suffice it to say, the more picky you are about the fit of your blank to your hardware, the more important it is for the ends of the blank to be absolutely square to the tube. You can't get a perfect fit if those ends aren't square. So if you are extremely picky, I would suggest moving toward a sanding jig of some sort. You may be able to get good, and maybe even consistently good, results with a barrel trimmer. You may be able to occasionally get excellent results with a barrel trimmer. But getting consistent, excellent results is less likely. There's so much potential human error that you have to "train" out, and in my opinion, you'll save yourself a ton of time, frustration, and even money spending the money upfront to get a sanding jig. (I'll second whoever mentioned Rick Harrel's sanding jig above. I use it and it was a game-changer for me.) When you consider all the kits and blanks that you'll "waste" getting to the point of excellence, $50 or even $100 for a sanding jig is chump change.

 

[sequoia]

I had better results on my next two pens. The Starbond thin and medium came in. I chamfered the edges of the tubes, which I had forgotten to do the first time. I also made sure to sand down the ends before polishing, but I do have a few follow-up questions if you all do not mind.

1. With the micro-mesh pads on a CA covered wooden blank, are you all using water? Had a conversation with someone at Penn State regarding one of their kits and I brought up CA over wood. They were advising not to use water.
2. I believe the dark ring that is developing around my edges might be due to some contamination when wet sanding with the micro-mesh.
Has anyone had this and how have you remedied it? When I apply the CA, I end-up using the non-stick bushings, but when polishing, I swapped back to the turning bushings. Is that
3. Prepping the blank with a little acetone before applying the CA helped and I omitted the EEE ultrashine. The koa's iridesence really came up and the pen looks very nice. It's almost as if there are many layers you are looking into/through now.

Thank you all for your help. It's been over 5 years since I last turned and I never applied CA before. To get back here this quickly and try something new is very gratifying. Thank you for getting me here.

Matt

 

[bugradx2]

Yes for me with respect to wet sanding with micro mesh. I do my micro mesh sanding immediately after applying the CA so I may be missing out on the water seeping into the end of the blank. Once I have my micro mesh sanding/polishing done then I will sand any remaining CA from the end of the blank.
I use the poly bushings to apply CA and sand

 

[KenB259]

I had better results on my next two pens. The Starbond thin and medium came in. I chamfered the edges of the tubes, which I had forgotten to do the first time. I also made sure to sand down the ends before polishing, but I do have a few follow-up questions if you all do not mind.

1. With the micro-mesh pads on a CA covered wooden blank, are you all using water? Had a conversation with someone at Penn State regarding one of their kits and I brought up CA over wood. They were advising not to use water.
2. I believe the dark ring that is developing around my edges might be due to some contamination when wet sanding with the micro-mesh.
Has anyone had this and how have you remedied it? When I apply the CA, I end-up using the non-stick bushings, but when polishing, I swapped back to the turning bushings. Is that
3. Prepping the blank with a little acetone before applying the CA helped and I omitted the EEE ultrashine. The koa's iridesence really came up and the pen looks very nice. It's almost as if there are many layers you are looking into/through now.

Thank you all for your help. It's been over 5 years since I last turned and I never applied CA before. To get back here this quickly and try something new is very gratifying. Thank you for getting me here.

Matt

I always use water. If done correctly, the wood should be completely sealed. Usually darker rings on the ends are the result of sanding with the metal bushings on.

 

[sequoia]

Sounds like I should be sealing the ends of my turned blanks with a little CA before applying CA to the turned area.

Does that mean you all are turning down to the bushing with the gouge? I have been sanding down to it to avoid taking metal off the bushing, leaving some wood.

Would anyone be able to recommend a good video I could refer to? It's been a while since I turned a pen and sadly I seem to have forgotten some really important steps or never learned a more refined method.

Thank you

 

[KenB259]

I dont go all the way to the bushings. I get close and then switch to TBC with just a dead and live center, I don't bother with TBC bushings. Most segmented blanks, I don't sand at all. Also, I always seal the ends of wood blanks with thin CA before they even get on the lathe.

 

[chrisb1963]

i usually use my barrel trimmer but turn by hand to cut excess clue off be carefull u can chip real easily.. then sand if neccessary before pressing together

 

[Woodchipper]

I lightly rub the end of the blank on fine 320 sandpaper, moving in a figure 8 pattern.