First Celtic Knot

[duderubble]

And maybe my last. lol. Anyone got a tutorial on making the centers line up. I think I drilled pretty centered. I'm thinking maybe the veneer sandwich needs to match the saw kerf exactly or maybe something else. It looks cool if you don't look too close.

Plain walnut with maple and walnut veneer on an antique brass cigar.

 

[mark james]

Well done Guy! I do appreciate your frustration about getting everything aligned. Segmenting is fussy (Just today I assembled several blanks that will get turned back to the tube tomorrow, nothing worthwhile to save after 5 hrs... ).

Your' knot is good. The alignment could be better (I look at the triangles inside of the circle; top/bottom, left/right), but I'm not sure that the center markings are an issue. In general, the ends look aligned. Maybe the cuts were just slightly of ???

Your last? ...Nah! Just need to do 5-10 more and tweak your technique. I fully expect to have 3-5 failures for a new design before the sun and moon align and things get settled. Be patient, accept failures as pare of the learning curve. All will be well.

I really like your 5-ply veneers; very nice. You are very close to nailing this, and that is no small feat!

You are a new member to IAP, so I'll direct you to the IAP Library: https://www.penturners.org/resources/categories/segmenting.17/. Lots of great resources. You will need to download the articles, but a good start for anyone.

Be well, stay healthy and have FUN!





Thanks for sharing.

 

[wolf creek knives]

Don't make it your last. Great job, almost as good as the one I've got tattooed to my arm. Different medium but again, a great job. One day I'll try one.

 

[jttheclockman]

Have done quite afew knots over the years so I may make some points that may or may not help. You may already be aware of these things but to be successful it is imperative to follow. First thing is to make things easier always start with a square blank and also a true 90 degree bottom flat edge to your sides of the blank as your premiere blank. Your jig to hold the blank must be true and repeatable. You must be able to lock your blank down so there is no movement and it is always in the same position on all four cuts. I do not care if the jig is for a tablesaw or bandsaw. The huge difference is the thickness of the blade and it will show in the size of the knot. These are musts as all I am about to tell you. Deviate and you are gambling as to final outcome. Follow and you will be dead on every time.

The size of your blade with reference to kerf size is important in that you must replace that thickness with exact thickness of material used to make knot. Weather you use a bandsaw the kerf will be the thinnest or you use a tablesaw where you can get blades as thin as 1/16" (7-14" blade) 3/32" full 10" blade. I have used both and they work well. I lean more toward the 3/32" blade. Again to make things easier to keep aligned, do not cut all the way through your blank. Leave about 1/16" material left. This allows you to glue without having to align any grain patterns or sides of blank and clamp. Now the material you inlay with must fit snug but do not push apart the cut. I like a slip fit. You can use whatever material you like but again you may have to plane it or sand it but it too must be flat and true to size on entire piece. I like a 1" blank and that way I know it will fit on all kits. The bigger the kit the bigger the blank needed especially when leaving 1/16" left over material.

I am a firm believer in using epoxy to glue my knots or any other segmenting I do. It allows me to adjust if need be and allows for a good bond. Now if doing colored acrylics in either the inlay or the blank I may add a touch of color to epoxy incase there is a slight gap. You can use acrylic model paint or true casters dyes. Again some people use CA and I will let them tell you their experience because mine is not good with that.

Here is my trick. I do not clamp the blank. The reason is it throws off the alignment ever so slightly if there is a gap between inlay and kerf. If your inlay material is dead on there will be no gap. I let the blank lay flat on a flat surface so it does not have a belly in it and then slide the inlay in and let dry. Always allow inlay to overhang a tab bit so that you know the entire kerf is covered. After it dries you then carefully sand the excess inlay material off making sure you do not sand the blank down from original. Now you are ready for second cut.

I should have mentioned this earlier. There are 2 ways to cut the knot. You need to mark all sides of the blank and you need that designated bottom of the blank (I like to put an X on it) that is your reference point and needs to go in jig the same orientation every time. The way the blank can be numbered is 1-2-3-4 in a row around the blank and this is the sequence you make your cuts starting with 1. The other way is to number the blank 1 and number 2 is on the opposite side of 1. Then 3 is on the opposite side of 4. The reason is when you do enough of these you will see how the inlay material wraps around the blank and how it flows over and under. Many never even notice it and it really has no true effect on the knot but it can alter the look somewhat. But you always cut the next cut in sequential order no matter how you marked the blank.

Now for drilling dead center. Never, ever, ever, just take the blank and find center as normal where you mark diagonal lines on the ends and then center punch them. If the blank is out of square it will make the knot turn and it will be out of precision where all triangles within the not are not equal Top of knot must match bottom of knot and sides must match each other. If they are not as in the case you shown this tells me either the inlay material was not exact size or when you clamped it you squeezed it to hard. Thus my trick. So to find center of the knot place a straight edge down the center of the knot and draw a line to edge of blank. Now take a square and transfer it to the ends of the blank. Where those 2 points meet is center you need to drill. Will not tell you what to drill blank because I am getting tired.

One last point. Many people use either 45 degrees for their knots or 60 degrees. I prefer 52 or 53 degrees. It stretches the knot just right and the thicker your kerf material is the tinier the knot looks.

Good luck and hope there is some info in here to help. Keep at it. They are easy to make once you get your rhythm down.

 

[ramaroodle]

Hmmm....I've only done about 10 but none with 5 ply. Impressive. But...I'm wondering if it has to do with the orientation of the segments. Looks like it is off by exactly the width of 2 lines of inlay (if you know what I mean). Was the blank dead-nuts square? You did an excellent job for a first try. No gaps or dark lines around the edges or any of the other things that can happen during glue-up or clamping. That was the hard part for me. I screwed up a lot of them before I did the one that is my avatar. If that alignment issue is the only problem with your first try you are doing better than most of us, or at least me. Rock on dude!

 

[magpens]

@duderubble .... Your pictured knot is pretty darn good for a first attempt !! . Your thoughts for improvement have been going through my mind.

You wonder ... "I'm thinking maybe the veneer sandwich needs to match the saw kerf exactly ... "

This "rule" has been stated often, but I am not sure it is an absolute requirement ... As I see it, it depends on how you make your knot.

A lot of methods suggest that, for successful alignment, you do not cut all the way through the blank. . Yes, the "rule" applies for this method.

But, it seems to me, if you can find another way to assure alignment (of wood grain, or whatever), you can dispense with that "rule".
You could then make your cuts go right through the blank.

You must, however, keep all inserts (eg. your veneer sandwiches) of the same thickness, and carefully re-align after each cut.
One aid to re-alignment is accurately squaring your blank cross-section and ends before doing any cuts.

If you do that, and carefully monitor the order of your cuts, then you should be able to make your inserts of "whatever" thickness.
A single veneer thickness of, say, 0.020", should be OK even with a kerf of 0.065" (my saw blade) cutting completely through.

If I am wrong on this, I would like to be informed ( ... gently ... please !! ) by anyone with corroborating reasons. . Thanks for considering.

 

[Dieseldoc]

Duderrubble:
For me I think the first go around went well. like the other posters suggested the items that need correction. You are not to far away from getting it done. I full agree with Mark on the process it take to master these type of segments, it's not easy so don't worry about some not coming out correct. Work hard on correcting the problems, one at a time. You know if it were easy everyone would make segments pen's.

 

[MDWine]

And maybe my last. lol . . . .

That is great for your first. That's the frustrating fun, figuring out the details. Don't give up!

 

[duderubble]

@duderubble .... Your pictured knot is pretty darn good for a first attempt !! . Your thoughts for improvement have been going through my mind.

You wonder ... "I'm thinking maybe the veneer sandwich needs to match the saw kerf exactly ... "

This "rule" has been stated often, but I am not sure it is an absolute requirement ... As I see it, it depends on how you make your knot.

A lot of methods suggest that, for successful alignment, you do not cut all the way through the blank. . Yes, the "rule" applies for this method.

But, it seems to me, if you can find another way to assure alignment (of wood grain, or whatever), you can dispense with that "rule".
You could then make your cuts go right through the blank.

You must, however, keep all inserts (eg. your veneer sandwiches) of the same thickness, and carefully re-align after each cut.
One aid to re-alignment is accurately squaring your blank cross-section and ends before doing any cuts.

If you do that, and carefully monitor the order of your cuts, then you should be able to make your inserts of "whatever" thickness.
A single veneer thickness of, say, 0.020", should be OK even with a kerf of 0.065" (my saw blade) cutting completely through.

If I am wrong on this, I would like to be informed ( ... gently ... please !! ) by anyone with corroborating reasons. . Thanks for considering.

I was thinking that too, if it were horizontal or vertical that would be true. With it being at an angle (whether 45, 60 or whatever) I think aligning the segments after the cut is going to throw off horizontal or vertical alignment unless the amount being added (in this case the veneer sandwich) matches the amount removed. Now with a dado blade set you could make the amount removed larger (or with multiple passes but wouldn't that be a nightmare?). Or smaller with a narrow kerf

Believe it or not folks this one was done cutting clean through on a compound miter saw. I might give it a go on the table saw.

 

[ramaroodle]

Believe it or not folks this one was done cutting clean through on a compound miter saw. I might give it a go on the table saw.

Ahh! I think that's why your bands are so crisp and precise because you did cut clean through. The kerf size isn't a consideration with that technique. The alignment is the downside of that technique me thinks.

I think you've zeroed in on your issue! Don't cut clean through. Use a table saw or band saw but be careful that the kerf and the inlay are an EXACT fit in the kerf, not too tight or too loose as that will throw off the excellent crispness of the lines you achieved when you clamp it. It's tough to get that exact fit with multiple layers of veneer glued together as they are rarely a perfect match for the kerf. So, either use the method you used and get the alignment perfect or don't cut all the way through and use an inlay that is a perfect fit in the kerf.

 

[jttheclockman]

OK if I may be allowed to comment and follow up on Mals thoughts, without stirring any pots. There are 2 thoughts on doing these and probably more for many people do them. One is do not cut all the way through which makes for alot easier alignment and less hassle but yes the kerf size and inlay material must match. I explained my way above in my last post. This is just my way and I added a few of the tips I found as I was making these. I will say this I learned alot from asking questions here when these were just getting popular. What this does is cuts down on the frustration and the trial and error. You will learn much as you do these for sure but trying to learn the easier way makes it more enjoyable.

The second way is to cut all the way through. I have done this also but what is needed here is extreme precision to realign the grain on all 4 sides of the blank and make the cut seamless. To Mal, yes,now you can use any size thickness inlay material as long as you use it for all 4 cuts and the procedure to clamp is the same. The same rules apply though when making your cuts in that keep the blank square, keep the designated end in the same orientation, and do not oversand any one side or else alignment goes awry. Now when I use this method and I will show the only reason I will use this method in a photo, I use a piece of aluminum angle with wax paper under the blank and I clamp the blank many ways to ensure it lays flat and square and in this case you need to clamp the blank end to end to secure the glue joint but not too tight where you starve the joint.

You can do multiple knots and you can use round blanks to make these also. So as I said there are other methods but will leave them for another day.

I have included an acrylic knot with aluminum inlay. This was cut at 45 degrees and not cut all the way through.

The next is a red and yellow knot where it was cut all the way through because it is needed to achieve this look. Cut at 60 degree. But last photo shows my set up to glue these type cuts back together. This can be used for many different segmented cuts too, not only knots.

 

[ramaroodle]

One of the reasons I like the kerf method is I think it makes the blank more rigid when turning and drilling. That's why I start with 7/8 or 1" blanks so I don't have to make the cut as deep and close to the edge of the blank if that makes any sense. That's one of the things I love about pen making. There are many ways to skin that kitty cat.

Also, if I get a perfect match to my kerf weather it be bandsaw or tables saw (thin and reg kerf blades) I'll slice a bunch of inserts to use at some later point.

 

[magpens]

Sounds good .... we have a basis on which to proceed with further work .... so don't give up !!