Finishing segmented blanks with metal layers?

[jrista]

So, I made a segmented blank a while back, for a pen I just finished today for my cousin. It combined this black resin (thought it was acrylic, but it did not feel like or turn like acrylic...lot harder, no long streamers like acrylic...so I don't know what it was), some aqua-colored kirinite, and some layers of aluminum between the black and kirinite.

At first, the metal looked superb! Super shiny. The metal actually looked great, throughout all the sanding and polishing. The problem was, the resins themselves kept showing their super fine scratches in certain kinds of light. So I ultimately buffed them. The buffing, starting with trip, then WD then finally blue, did the job, and gave me the blanks I wanted. Except for the metal...its now dull, rather than the kind of chrome-like shiny it started out as. It looks "brushed", without the actual brushed pattern. The hardware parts, in this case a gunmetal and black Cigar, are shiny, so I'd planned on the metal being shiny...but, since buffing, it seems like it is now impossible to get it to shine up again (despite trying several times).

I guess I have two questions:

1. Why did my metal lose its shine?
2. How do I fix it? ;P

 

[Drewby108]

Aluminum oxidizes very quickly, which dulls from that nice shiny finish. How to protect it, though, I don't know

 

[jttheclockman]

It is funny I have been asked this question not long ago by a member here so I will give my same response of what I do. First I try never to use wood and metals together because I do not like to put CA on metals. I have done it on a very rare occasion. I preach so much on this site about the use of a skew in what we do. Learn to use that tool and believe me more problems go away quickly. As I said I use acrylics with metals. I never sand the blank. That is a huge no no The reason is when you introduce sanding scratches in 2 different materials it is almost impossible to match the surface up. I always turn my segmented blanks down with a skew to final size and shape. I then go through all the MM pads because MM is more a polishing pad as opposed to a sanding pad. If I see I am making any scratch marks with lower pads I will skip over them. Now metals and acrylics have the same surface scratches or lack of them. After done I add some plastic polish. I will post some examples of these type pens I made over the years. I still have most of them and they look just the same way as when I made them. Now I do not use them and they sit in a velvet pouch till next show. When I do show them I wipe with soft cloth to remove finger prints. Now this is my method and it has worked for me. Your milage may vary. I see no oxidation on metal parts.

 

[egnald]

In my experience the shininess of metal separators in segmented blanks has to do with sanding. For my finishing cuts I use a square carbide cutter that has radiused corners and it gives me a very smooth surface without tool marks. Other folks that use traditional tools achieve the same results using a very sharp skew. For me, this leaves the metal (aluminum, copper, and brass) very shiny. Then I apply a finish without sanding first in order to keep the metal shiny. When I want the metal to look more muted (antique?) I dry sand the blank with 600 or 800 grit sandpaper before applying the finish. Sanding with even high grits etches or dulls the metal giving it that "brushed" appearance you eluded to. So, for the shiniest appearance, turn the blank as smoothly as possible and don't sand it before you apply your finish.

As to fixing it once it is dull, so far I have not found a way to make that happen - that doesn't mean that there isn't a way, just that I haven't found it. I even tried sanding through all of the grits up to 7000 and that didn't get the metal back to it's freshly cut appearance.

Regards,
Dave

 

[leehljp]

The aluminum (and brass) have kept their shine. I have measurable thickness of CA over the entire blank. Well sealed and covered should help. I do not sand metal; instead I use the chisel (extra sharp) and turn it to the size I want it to be on the blank. the sharp chisel edge makes it very smooth. The CA keeps it shiny. For me, Sandpaper smears metal dust, so I don't sand segments with metal.

 

[Woodchipper]

Thanks to all. Good information for future reference for the members.

 

[leehljp]

2. How do I fix it? ;P

Answering again but on this issue. if you do not have a radiused square carbide insert tool, use a skew laying on its side and turn the blanks just barely enough to bring the shine back on the metallic parts. Make the blank smooth from end to end. Then - put a thick coat of CA or several thin coats. Enough to allow for finish sanding without sanding through to the blank/metal.

Many people do not CA over cast material, as much of the cast world will shine with just finish buffing. However, when segmenting, sometimes CAing over cast material is a must.

Rarely mentioned on the forum, but there are few here who are knowledgeable in the metallurgic world who know that there are types of metal in each kind, such as in brass or even in silver color, that will tarnish or oxidize, and there are types of the same metallic color that do not.

For instance, there are tarnishing brass and non tarnishing brass; there are tarnishing silver-ish metals and non-tarnishing from the same type. The key is knowing where to search and what to look for.

Metals That Don’t Tarnish. 10 Stylish Jewelry Metals.

What jewelry metals do not tarnish? Here 10 best metals that don’t tarnish or fade when exposed to air or water. Plus 4 metals that will turn your skin green.

finemetalworking.com

 

[BayouPenturner]

What glue do you use to put the blank together, CA, epoxy?

 

[egnald]

What glue do you use to put the blank together, CA, epoxy?

I always use epoxy. When I was using CA I often suffered from "rapid unscheduled disassembly", usually when drilling. I also scuffed up the metal pieces with sandpaper before gluing to improve adhesion much as one does with the brass tubes. - Dave

 

[jttheclockman]

What glue do you use to put the blank together, CA, epoxy?

I use System3 T88 epoxy for all blanks I use metals in and I also use to secure tube in blank. This is my epoxy glue of choice. If I need to I always can tint it any color. I use tints made for epoxy glues. Not all tints work well with epoxy.

 

[jrista]

What glue do you use to put the blank together, CA, epoxy?

I use T88 epoxy, which seems to bond to many types of materials significantly better than anything else.

 

[jrista]

Answering again but on this issue. if you do not have a radiused square carbide insert tool, use a skew laying on its side and turn the blanks just barely enough to bring the shine back on the metallic parts. Make the blank smooth from end to end. Then - put a thick coat of CA or several thin coats. Enough to allow for finish sanding without sanding through to the blank/metal.

Many people do not CA over cast material, as much of the cast world will shine with just finish buffing. However, when segmenting, sometimes CAing over cast material is a must.

Rarely mentioned on the forum, but there are few here who are knowledgeable in the metallurgic world who know that there are types of metal in each kind, such as in brass or even in silver color, that will tarnish or oxidize, and there are types of the same metallic color that do not.

For instance, there are tarnishing brass and non tarnishing brass; there are tarnishing silver-ish metals and non-tarnishing from the same type. The key is knowing where to search and what to look for.

Metals That Don’t Tarnish. 10 Stylish Jewelry Metals.

What jewelry metals do not tarnish? Here 10 best metals that don’t tarnish or fade when exposed to air or water. Plus 4 metals that will turn your skin green.

finemetalworking.com

Thanks for the info on non-tarnishing metals. I'll have to delve deeper into that.

As for CA...I don't think I could bring myself to coat a metal+resin blank in CA. Aside from fears of separation of the CA from the other materials, since you couldn't soak it into the pores and fibers as you do with wood, which creates a deeply penetrating layer that the later layers bond to, I've never quite liked the look of CA. Now, I still haven't used GluBoost, and people assure me it is somehow differnet, but...call me skeptical.

I think finding some non-tarnishing metals might be the best option for me.

 

[jrista]

It is funny I have been asked this question not long ago by a member here so I will give my same response of what I do. First I try never to use wood and metals together because I do not like to put CA on metals. I have done it on a very rare occasion. I preach so much on this site about the use of a skew in what we do. Learn to use that tool and believe me more problems go away quickly. As I said I use acrylics with metals. I never sand the blank. That is a huge no no The reason is when you introduce sanding scratches in 2 different materials it is almost impossible to match the surface up. I always turn my segmented blanks down with a skew to final size and shape. I then go through all the MM pads because MM is more a polishing pad as opposed to a sanding pad. If I see I am making any scratch marks with lower pads I will skip over them. Now metals and acrylics have the same surface scratches or lack of them. After done I add some plastic polish. I will post some examples of these type pens I made over the years. I still have most of them and they look just the same way as when I made them. Now I do not use them and they sit in a velvet pouch till next show. When I do show them I wipe with soft cloth to remove finger prints. Now this is my method and it has worked for me. Your milage may vary. I see no oxidation on metal parts. View attachment 357606View attachment 357607View attachment 357608View attachment 357609

This is probably the best answer in the long run. I'm still learning how to use skews properly. I think right now, the greatest trouble I have is sharpening them. I've learned that if the skew gets a concave surface out to the edge, it gets a lot harder to control it. However, I don't seem to be able to maintain a truly flat surface, which is how they were when I originally bought them. I may pick up another CBN wheel here, one with a large flat carbide-coated side surface, which might make it easier for me to grind flat surfaces.

I used to not be able to use a skew at all. I'm able to use one fine now, without catching or doing other damage to the blanks. I like it for turning multi-material blanks in particular, its just easier than other tools now that I've got a handle on it. That said, I cannot seem to get that super smooth surface like you show here. I always seem to get peaks and valleys in the surface to some degree or another. After a point, once I'm down close to the bushings, I gotta stop and switch to sanding to avoid over-turning. Hopefully its now just a matter of practice and perfection of the skill, but I suspect I'll have to learn to sharpen my skews optimally as well.

I also researched the various different angles of skews, and whether they are radiused or not. I'm curious, what kind of skew do you use, and what angle? Flat, radiused? Not angled, or angled and to what degree?

 

[jttheclockman]

This is probably the best answer in the long run. I'm still learning how to use skews properly. I think right now, the greatest trouble I have is sharpening them. I've learned that if the skew gets a concave surface out to the edge, it gets a lot harder to control it. However, I don't seem to be able to maintain a truly flat surface, which is how they were when I originally bought them. I may pick up another CBN wheel here, one with a large flat carbide-coated side surface, which might make it easier for me to grind flat surfaces.

I used to not be able to use a skew at all. I'm able to use one fine now, without catching or doing other damage to the blanks. I like it for turning multi-material blanks in particular, its just easier than other tools now that I've got a handle on it. That said, I cannot seem to get that super smooth surface like you show here. I always seem to get peaks and valleys in the surface to some degree or another. After a point, once I'm down close to the bushings, I gotta stop and switch to sanding to avoid over-turning. Hopefully its now just a matter of practice and perfection of the skill, but I suspect I'll have to learn to sharpen my skews optimally as well.

I also researched the various different angles of skews, and whether they are radiused or not. I'm curious, what kind of skew do you use, and what angle? Flat, radiused? Not angled, or angled and to what degree?

I Use a flat shaped angle skew 1/2" Henry Talor for pens. I also have a 3/4" that I use for larger stuff like birdhouse ornaments and also a 1". The larger the diameter material you are turning you should go up in size in skew to prevent catches. I use to shape the skew as Alan Lacer did but got away from that. My grinder is basically set to the skew angle all the time because that is the one tool I seem to always be sharpening. I use the flat platten on the grinder and the exact angle I do not know but can measure. It is so easy to sharpen a skew especially that shape. There are plenty of videos on the net. I just hold my thumb on the shaft to make sure it stays on the plate and just watch the straightness as I slide across the wheel. All you want to do is just barely see sparks over the cutting edge and lightly. You are not reshaping, just sharpening. If I am doing alot of turning with it I will keep my diamond stone near the lathe and every so often just hit the skew with that and in no time it is very sharp. When using the grinder I always use a sharpie and color the cutting edge of the skew before I hit the wheel. After a quick pass I look to see if I removed all the marker and if I did that is all for that side. Do both sides. Learning how to hold the skew and running across the tool rest takes practice. You need to move the body as you move the tool and not just your hand. This will keep consistent pressure on tool as it is cutting and you will avoid those dips and valleys. It does take practice as does all turning tools. I am by no way a master with the tool but have gotten better over the years and just find it the right tool for pen making by far.

 

[leehljp]

Thanks for the info on non-tarnishing metals. I'll have to delve deeper into that.

As for CA...I don't think I could bring myself to coat a metal+resin blank in CA. Aside from fears of separation of the CA from the other materials, since you couldn't soak it into the pores and fibers as you do with wood, which creates a deeply penetrating layer that the later layers bond to, I've never quite liked the look of CA. Now, I still haven't used GluBoost, and people assure me it is somehow differnet, but...call me skeptical.

I think finding some non-tarnishing metals might be the best option for me.

the purpose of CA'ing on resin in this one case is for the prevention of the oxidation of the aluminum. In the future, non-oxidizing aluminum or other silver metal would be the ideal, but for this pen already made, either accept the oxidation or cover it with something. I wasn't suggesting that resin blanks be coated with CA as a norm, but only focusing on the problem of this pen in this thread, which is - how does one stop the oxidation on this pen? Going forward, the 2 basic recourses are; different material, or covering the entire pen blank with something.

 

[jrista]

I Use a flat shaped angle skew 1/2" Henry Talor for pens. I also have a 3/4" that I use for larger stuff like birdhouse ornaments and also a 1". The larger the diameter material you are turning you should go up in size in skew to prevent catches. I use to shape the skew as Alan Lacer did but got away from that. My grinder is basically set to the skew angle all the time because that is the one tool I seem to always be sharpening. I use the flat platten on the grinder and the exact angle I do not know but can measure. It is so easy to sharpen a skew especially that shape. There are plenty of videos on the net. I just hold my thumb on the shaft to make sure it stays on the plate and just watch the straightness as I slide across the wheel. All you want to do is just barely see sparks over the cutting edge and lightly. You are not reshaping, just sharpening. If I am doing alot of turning with it I will keep my diamond stone near the lathe and every so often just hit the skew with that and in no time it is very sharp. When using the grinder I always use a sharpie and color the cutting edge of the skew before I hit the wheel. After a quick pass I look to see if I removed all the marker and if I did that is all for that side. Do both sides. Learning how to hold the skew and running across the tool rest takes practice. You need to move the body as you move the tool and not just your hand. This will keep consistent pressure on tool as it is cutting and you will avoid those dips and valleys. It does take practice as does all turning tools. I am by no way a master with the tool but have gotten better over the years and just find it the right tool for pen making by far.

I guess I could just keep a hone near by for most of the sharpening, and just keep it honed at all times. That might reduce the need to actually resharpen on a grinding wheel. The trouble I have had is that once I put it on the grinding wheel, the surface from the shaft to the cutting edge goes from flat to curved, and then it seems to be a lot harder to control.

 

[jrista]

the purpose of CA'ing on resin in this one case is for the prevention of the oxidation of the aluminum. In the future, non-oxidizing aluminum or other silver metal would be the ideal, but for this pen already made, either accept the oxidation or cover it with something. I wasn't suggesting that resin blanks be coated with CA as a norm, but only focusing on the problem of this pen in this thread, which is - how does one stop the oxidation on this pen? Going forward, the 2 basic recourses are; different material, or covering the entire pen blank with something.

Well, I wonder if I can do anything at this point. If I take a tool back to the blank...to shine up the metal again, I'm worried I'm going to mess it up. I don't really have any room to make any mistakes, as its been turned and sanded down to the EXACT match for the fittings. I did clean the blank with a microfiber cloth, and that seems to have shined the metal layers up a decent amount. I wonder if it was in part that some of the buffing compound had ended up stuck on the metal...

Anyway. I have some metal to use up, and I'll try to be more careful with buffing in the future. Then I'll see if I can just stick with tarnish-free metals.

 

[jttheclockman]

I guess I could just keep a hone near by for most of the sharpening, and just keep it honed at all times. That might reduce the need to actually resharpen on a grinding wheel. The trouble I have had is that once I put it on the grinding wheel, the surface from the shaft to the cutting edge goes from flat to curved, and then it seems to be a lot harder to control.

You are talking about the bevel of the skew. You get a hollow grind bevel when you use a grinding wheel. If you use a 6" wheel you get a deeper hollow than a 8" If you can control a skew better with a flat grind than a hollow grind then stay away from grinding wheels and use only water stones and or diamond hones to keep that edge. Think of a woodworkers block plane blade. That is basically what a skew is. As far as angles go there are charts that can help because different materials will react better or worse with different angles. This is why many wood turners have multiple skews because they are ground to different cutting angles for different materials. Believe me this is one tool that is worth the time and effort to learn in my eyes. I know it takes practice but it is worth it. The intro of carbide tools has helped in this area though so you may want to try negative rake scrapers. I never tried them and have no need to. I do use carbide to get the blank to close to what shape I need though. I use only the round cutters these days. This goes back to the skew theory of such a small contact part of cutting edge to material and better to control in my eyes. Good luck.

 

[jrista]

You are talking about the bevel of the skew. You get a hollow grind bevel when you use a grinding wheel. If you use a 6" wheel you get a deeper hollow than a 8" If you can control a skew better with a flat grind than a hollow grind then stay away from grinding wheels and use only water stones and or diamond hones to keep that edge. Think of a woodworkers block plane blade. That is basically what a skew is. As far as angles go there are charts that can help because different materials will react better or worse with different angles. This is why many wood turners have multiple skews because they are ground to different cutting angles for different materials. Believe me this is one tool that is worth the time and effort to learn in my eyes. I know it takes practice but it is worth it. The intro of carbide tools has helped in this area though so you may want to try negative rake scrapers. I never tried them and have no need to. I do use carbide to get the blank to close to what shape I need though. I use only the round cutters these days. This goes back to the skew theory of such a small contact part of cutting edge to material and better to control in my eyes. Good luck.

Er, duh...the bevel.

Yeah, I have 8" wheels, but that still puts too much on for me. I guess I'll stick with flat surfaced sharpening tools.

I'm definitely learning how to use a skew. I'm quite good with gouges of all kinds. Ironically, before I ever picked up a skew, I watched this excellent video on why they catch, and even demonstrated with a real skew on a waste dowel how to purposely cause some (there were a few he wouldn't even try as they were too dangerous!) I actually am ok if the bevel is totally flat. Its when that picks up a curvature, that I then start getting catches. I don't know why for sure...maybe just the sheer amount of surface area of the bevel that can then be in contact with the wood?

Anyway, with gouges, and multiple materials of differnet densities, it can actually be quite hard to turn. The skew seems to take care of that, makes turning multi-material stuff easier. Slower, at least for me right now (not sure if it will get faster), but, its better. I can whip through a piece of wood of most densities with just a roughing gouge in a matter of a couple of minutes. Lot longer with a skew.

I do a bit of work with finials, mostly turned from blackwood. I've been afraid to try a skew there...stuff is so expensive. I imagine, though, that a skew should be able to turn finials as well?

 

[Rink]

View attachment 357606

Good morning.
What metal are your segments on this one?
Thx, rink.

 

[jttheclockman]

Good morning.
What metal are your segments on this one?
Thx, rink.

Hello Rink. The metals used in this pen are 1/16" aluminum for the bandings and 1/8" aluminum for the dots.

 

[jrista]

Hello Rink. The metals used in this pen are 1/16" aluminum for the bandings and 1/8" aluminum for the dots.

View attachment 358194

John, looking closely, you seem to have rounded over the corners of those end bands of aluminum. Do you do that with the skew as well? If so, how does that go? The metals do seem to be a bit more "catchy" to me, when I'm using any tool... Or is there another technique you use to round over the corners of a metal layer?

 

[jttheclockman]

John, looking closely, you seem to have rounded over the corners of those end bands of aluminum. Do you do that with the skew as well? If so, how does that go? The metals do seem to be a bit more "catchy" to me, when I'm using any tool... Or is there another technique you use to round over the corners of a metal layer?

Sorry I did not round over any banding. You are looking at the ends of the kit itself. The components are chrome. I added the dots and the bands between the offset color bands. I included the original photo bottom one. The top one is just lightened up and sometimes you can lose depth of things.

 

[jttheclockman]

This looks like a good time to reminisce a little. My good Buddy who I terribly miss here SkipRat (Steven Jackson) who loved this pen so much he decided to show tribute by not only taking this pen idea and making it even better. His pen is far more outstanding than mine. I may one day try to copy this pen he did. Would be my tribute back to him. His talent was so outstanding here and is missed. Check this link.

https://www.penturners.org/threads/a-jt-cloned-panache-almost.135080/

 

[jrista]

This looks like a good time to reminisce a little. My good Buddy who I terribly miss here SkipRat (Steven Jackson) who loved this pen so much he decided to show tribute by not only taking this pen idea and making it even better. His pen is far more outstanding than mine. I may one day try to copy this pen he did. Would be my tribute back to him. His talent was so outstanding here and is missed. Check this link.

https://www.penturners.org/threads/a-jt-cloned-panache-almost.135080/

Well, you two are/were a couple of truly talented pen crafters! Both pens look beautiful! The hex aspect is always interesting. Would like to give that a try myself at some point (hopefully soon) here...

 

[jttheclockman]

Jon I just thought of something because you talked about the aluminum going dull on you, why not use stainless like Skip did. Polish that and you never have a problem. Now I never tried it or ever used stainless so not sure how to go about polishing but if Skip did it then it is possible. heck he made these beauties from stainless.

https://www.penturners.org/threads/auction-2-world-trade-center-set.138644/

 

[jrista]

Well, I did think of using steel. I don't know if I have anything that would really cut it, though, or at least nothing that would cut it well. Even with aluminum or other softer metals, I only have snips, and they tend to curl the metal. I saw some techniques about scoring the metal and just breaking pieces off...but, I've never been able to do that. Maybe because the metals I use are usually softer? (Most often I get the "dead soft" stuff, which is easy to turn)

 

[jrista]

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