Electric cars

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WriteON

WriteON

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I love gas engines. Love cars with some guts and a throaty exhaust. Never gave any thought to electric….However lately I'm giving considering electric for various reasons. Anyone here that owns electric …what do you/don't you like about it.
 
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I love the idea of anything that is good for the environment (especially since the planet may only have 9 years to live according to our brightest elected officials).

I do know folks that are contracted by the car battery battery companies to repair the batteries (and they believe the technology has a way to go).


It appears that less electricity is produced by coal which is good. I will wait, but there are many Tesla in my neck of the woods. If I liked the styling and the state of the technology, I would have bought one.

Electricity in the U.S. - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

The major fuel/energy sources and their contribution to annual U.S. electricity generation.
www.eia.gov www.eia.gov
 
I do like the hybrid vehicles, they do a good job at eliminating wasted fuel at the stoplight and during acceleration from a stop. When set into sport mode they deliver a pretty good punch consistent with the all torque characteristic of electric motors. When battery technology catches up and we can have fast charging 500 mile range EVs charged from solar cells and other non polluting sources I think electric cars will take over.
 
Don't understand PreacherJon's response re more energy, but…

My brother has a Tesla. His evaluation is that it's a pretty good vehicle for in-town stuff. Daily operating costs are low, but the level of "lowness" depends on how/where/when you recharge. Trickle charging (110v) takes a looong time. Quite a bit faster at 220v but still significantly longer than getting a fill up at a gas station. Very comfortable ride and quiet.
 
PreacherJon said:
In the end, they cost way more energy than a combustible engine. More money invested into it as well.
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Now, this would be an interesting debate! Can you post some links that substantiate this?

Are you talking about total life cycle costs? Operating costs? Relative to investment... R&D or infrastructure?
 
Aside from any costs. Not trying to economize but should as I'm way behind from penturning.
Advantages:
Most likely will start after sitting for a long period...no fuel to go bad. ( This matters to me)
Do not have to depend on fuel when the hiccups/shortages/hacks come.
Service comes to the car (Tesla). Do not have go to a service station or dealer.
No going out of way for gas stations.
I can sneak home late at night and not get caught garaging the car hehe.
 
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A small but irritating (and necessary) fact is that in about half the states, tag/license plates are accessed higher rates on electric and hybrids - because a major portion of gasoline tax is used for road infrastructure, repair and maintenance. In electric vehicles, the road use is free from gasoline taxes, therefore they are taxed higher for license plates or road use; in hybrids some taxes are paid through gasoline purchases, but they still are accessed an extra tax on their license plates or road use.

That said, we have had 3 hybrids (Toyota) and I like them. It does help the gas milage and (IMO) for a person that doesn't push the car, the electric assist seems to give more/longer life to the engine and drive train.

Since we travel 6 to 8 times a year on trips of 500 - 900+ miles one way in 1 or 2 days (and occasionally 900 in one day), an all electric vehicle would probably slow us down looking for charging stations. All Electrics are not yet viable for our travel styles.
 
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I bought my wife a Chevy Volt back in 2015 and really liked it so I bought myself a matching one. We really wanted electric cars but were not ready to commit to all electric so this was next best option. That lasted 2 years and we traded hers for a Chevy Bolt because having the Volt convinced us an all electric car was not a big jump for us. Had an accident and totaled the Bolt last year and couldn't find a replacement we liked. Ended up with a Lincoln hybrid and can't wait to get rid of it and buy another all electric.

I can see how they are not for everyone but for us they are perfect. We lived in Chicago at the time we had the Bolt so had easy access to charging stations. Working from home here in Florida now so we don't put a lot of miles on a car.

As far as likes, not buying gas or changing the oils, low tire wear. Very low maintenance and the diagnostic systems allows us to closely monitor the motor. I also like the acceleration, they are very quick. Special parking spots at a lot of places.

My biggest pet peeve is inconsistent battery life. In Chicago cold days drained the battery much faster than warmer days. Driving at night with wipers and headlights on drained faster than a sunny day. Electrics tend to be smaller but my daughter found a KIA SUV out of California that has plenty of room.
 
Personally I think the technology has a long way to go. In particular batteries. If i were in the market for one I would do a lot of research on the lifespan, warranty and cost of replacement Batteries.
as far as helping the ecology, last time I checked green energy production was around 3% of the total. Renewable was rated at about 20%, most of that is from hydroelectric dams and I don't think we have built any new ones in a long time. Also battery production and disposal is not environmentally friendly.
in short, if a large majority switched we would just be exchanging one pollution for others.
I did see an economist talk about energy production recently and he determined the only economical source is nuclear. I doubt many would be on board for that in their area.
 
I would be curious about the longevity of the hybrids and full electrics vs the materials and technology that has been developed and improved since Henry Ford started things off back ago. When I was a younker if cars made it past 100,000 miles a real milestone was met as they exceeded their life expectancy. Now, I expect my cars to go 400,000 miles before I consider them nearing their end of life. I wonder if there are any 400,000 mile EV's out there yet. - Dave
 
There are many thoughts on them and I am sure that those who have them can make accurate statements but I will make electrical statements because this is what I know. First and foremost battery life is not where it needs to be especially if you live in extreme areas of the world. Too hot and too cold wear a battery down faster than anything. The older a battery gets the less it holds a charge. We all see that in battery operated tools. They are designed for so many charge cycles and this all depends on driving habits and how far you let the batteries die. That is where the cost is and as you see right now we are a subservant to the computer chip world and until we develop the ability to make our own electronics you will always be in this position.

The last point and will become a huge factor the more these companies push them and that is the infrastructure to handle them. Charging stations, time to charge fully, and most important the grid system to be able to handle that many electric cars charging all at once. Right now it is doable because they have not totally gotten a good hold on the market for various reasons I mentioned above but the time will come with better battery development. But the grid system is not growing with it. Add in hot summers with air conditioners running and brownouts happening that will be a problem. Most motors today have built in power factors that can handle varied voltage supplies but can these cars handle that same varied voltage when charging. This is why they recommend that you charge you car at night when demand is less.

Bottom line give me the gasoline engine any day. This is another one of those topics that can get political and out of bounds quickly. But gas cars can be made to run cleaner and more efficient than what they are now. But at what cost? Then can you get all countries to get on board with the same thought process. Not so black and white. Trying to become all independent is a whole other story. With all new inventions in new power sources comes faults. Wind, water, and solar are all good thoughts but not harnessed. There are life expectancy on all of them.
 
jeff said:
Now, this would be an interesting debate!
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Ha! Indeed it would. I don't know much and can't contribute regarding @WriteON's request, but there are a lot of things to research and consider besides just energy usage and monetary cost for the end user. Socioeconomic and cultural impacts related to raw materials and mining, labor sources and ethics. That tax thing Hank mentioned (along with discussion on per mile tax to make up for lost fuel taxes). Economic considerations related to employment concerns.

Too much politics in all that for me. Most manufacturers are going more EV, then there is Dodge beefing up their Hemi line. I'm still with you on liking the cars with guts and a throaty exhaust Frank. I would consider a hybrid if given the chance. The torque of the electric does sound appealing.
 
On a different subject…., (Tesla)..Self Driving cars … how scary and ridiculous. However when a car can drive me into the city (Phila) and park I'm buying one.
 
jeff said:
Now, this would be an interesting debate! Can you post some links that substantiate this?

Are you talking about total life cycle costs? Operating costs? Relative to investment... R&D or infrastructure?
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Oh man... all you have to do is do a little research yourself. The Lithium itself to mine is an incredible expense.
 
According to Consumer Reports the long term cost of owning an electric car is less than owning an equivalent combustion engine car. Mostly because of the lack of so many moving parts. I love gas engines too. Built my own car from scratch. However, the low end torque from a combustion engine will never come close to what an electric motor can do. So Electric will give you wicked acceleration. A low end Tesla will still knock your head back. We have to go all electric to save the planet, but I will miss the sound of a throaty V8 or a high revving 4.
 
Bryguy said:
According to Consumer Reports the long term cost of owning an electric car is less than owning an equivalent combustion engine car. Mostly because of the lack of so many moving parts. I love gas engines too. Built my own car from scratch. However, the low end torque from a combustion engine will never come close to what an electric motor can do. So Electric will give you wicked acceleration. A low end Tesla will still knock your head back. We have to go all electric to save the planet, but I will miss the sound of a throaty V8 or a high revving 4.
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Cars are a bad expense regardless of gas/electric. No way out. Save the planet yes. We killed it in my lifetime. Another plus to owning electric ….. people will not suffocate if left running in garage. I personally know of a person left the motor on…. Him, wife, 2 beautiful young daughters…. Dead. Accidentally gassed the family out. And it's easy to leave a motor running. I did it once in a parking lot. However it was a Nissan Cube with a bumper sticker that read… "You just got passed by a toaster". Nobody would steal a car like that. First class clowns car.
 
We have two Ford C-Max cars. Both are PHEV's (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle) that can be run in all electric mode for about 25 miles. In hybrid mode uses gas and electric. This setup has been great for us. In town driving all electric mode, out of town hybrid mode. In the car that I drive, gas mileage for the last 5 years is 239 MPG and climbing. Last fill-up was in August of 2020. My work commute was 13 miles round trip. Wife's commute was 10 miles round trip. I like the PHEV's, but I don't know if I would go full EV.
 
Both electric and gas cars have their strengths and weaknesses.

While the electric vehicle concept is fun and there are some impressive cars on the market, the technology is not truly "better" that traditional combustion engines. Take Tesla, they make some really nice cars. The are sleek and look good while sporting some good power and some decent self driving functions. Yet the technology is extremely limited as the self drive is not truly safe or reliable and the cars cannot go much farther than 250ish miles at most before a required recharge. Then there is the problem with batteries, every charge reduces its life and they are 100% not recyclable.

Modern combustion engines have become surprisingly fuel efficient. They burn a lot cleaner than in years past. When you take a car built in the last 10 years for an emissions test most of the CO2 readings are coming from outside of the tailpipe, the ambient air. The cars actually help clean the air but they are far from perfect. You also get better mileage by far and only 1 battery that can't be recycled versus an entire string. They are typically less expensive have longer life spans.

The argument that electric and far better to the environment than gas is pure political pandering and not true at all. The electric cars are not more recyclable than gas, maybe less so because of the materials used. In order to generate these lithium batteries large mines are required, some miles wide and more miles deep like in Russia, Mexico, Africa and Canada. Australia actually has some of the largest stores on earth. The harm to the planet caused by some of these massive mining endeavors is far worse than driving a modern gas vehicle.

Then the electricity that must be generated in order to power these vehicles is substantial and that has to come from somewhere. Solar panels are not recyclable and once the solar farms reach their life cycle expiration they are abandoned in place and left to rot making hundreds to thousands of acres of land at a time unusable. Then the efficiency of the panels is poor and high/low temperatures kill production on top of zero power generation at night. Wind turbines have very few recyclable components, only generate power with enough blade rpms, are prone to oil leaks and it is not uncommon for them to fall over. So renewable energy is not a reliable or large source of power. They are good supplements to the power grid but cannot realistically replace traditional power sources.

Do your research. Learn what all of the variables are. Electric and gas cars both have good points and bad. Neither is perfect.
 
I guess the obvious question is...

Is the increase in your electric bill LESS than your old gasoline bill?

How much does it cost to "fill up" at a charging station?

Those are the obvious "financial" questions which can be quantified.

The BIG question which cannot be quantified is "practicality". On your cross country trip from New York to Los Angeles to see grandma for Christmas, how much "down time" will you accumulate at charging stations? Will said stations be located at motels or will you have to sleep in your car?
 
I'm not a 'car guy' - cars are a necessary evil for me rather than a passion. I'm retired, so I don't have the daily commute to consider; for that reason, distance driving is the factor that I think about. I would love to have an all-electric vehicle, but I think that there are a couple of technical hurdles standing in the way at the present time - battery life, and charging infrastructure. Hybrids address both concerns, b ut are necessarily more complicated since they have both ICE and electric drive systems. As an engineer, that's more complicity that I want to consider.

This summer, one of the YouTube technology guys organized a comparative 'race' comparing an ICE vehicle (Audi), a Tesla, and a Ford Mustang Electric. All three cars were sent on a road trip that started in the New Jersey suburbs of New York City, went north to Lake Placid and then wet to Niagara Falls on the first day, and then returned to New Jersey via Scranton, PA the next day. They started out with batteries fully charged, and the gas take on the ICE vehicle also full, and all recharging/refueing was done 'on the road' - while they had an ovenight stay in Niagara Falls, they did not refuel or recharge during that rest period.

The key Takeaways they reported were:
1. The ICE vehicle was able to make the trip with about 1 hour less travel time than the Tesla, while the Ford took quite a bit longer (for reasons discussed below). The difference in travel time was due to the fact that ICE vehicles can refuel faster than electric vehicles can recharge, even with 'fast charging'.
2. The cost of the fuel consumed by the ICE vehicle was about 25% greater than the cost of the electrical energy purchased by either of the electric vehicles at charging stations. In performing this calculation, the organizer of the test looked at the actual cost of the elecgtrical energy consumed by the electric vehicles, and factored out any discounts or rebates offered by the vehicle manufacturers.
4. Both electric vehicles have software that monitors remaining battery charge, calculates remaining driving range, and navigates the driver to a charging station before the battery is fully discharged. However, the Tesla appears to perform that calculation using idealized mileage rates while the Ford allowed for more margin (ie, the Tesla driver was taken to charging stations with very little charge remaining, while the Ford algorithm left the driver with much more unused driving range.
5. The Tesla software integrates the vehicle with its proprietary recharging network, so when the vehicle arrived at a charging station, it was functional and available for use. Conversely, the Ford software knows where recharging stations are, but it doesn't know the status of those stations, which means that the vehicle can be directed to a recharging site that is temporarily out of order. This is why the additional margin in driving range is important. In this road trip, at one point the Ford had to make a significant detour to find a functional recharging station, and that led to several hours of additional road time compared with the other two vehicles.
 
rherrell said:
I guess the obvious question is...

Is the increase in your electric bill LESS than your old gasoline bill?

How much does it cost to "fill up" at a charging station?

Those are the obvious "financial" questions which can be quantified.

The BIG question which cannot be quantified is "practicality". On your cross country trip from New York to Los Angeles to see grandma for Christmas, how much "down time" will you accumulate at charging stations? Will said stations be located at motels or will you have to sleep in your car?
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Good points. If I go electric it's for around town only.
 
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As far as battery materials theres iron based batteries in the research pipeline that promise much more capacity and recharge ability. Since iron is quite common this may be the way to go. I was also reading about solid state batteries with silicon anodes, that ones going to be interesting.
 
egnald said:
I would be curious about the longevity of the hybrids and full electrics vs the materials and technology that has been developed and improved since Henry Ford started things off back ago. When I was a younker if cars made it past 100,000 miles a real milestone was met as they exceeded their life expectancy. Now, I expect my cars to go 400,000 miles before I consider them nearing their end of life. I wonder if there are any 400,000 mile EV's out there yet. - Dave
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HYBRIDS:
I have long wondered if this (longevity) is 1. regional (weather/long COLD winters, or HOT spring-summer-fall, or 2. driving characteristics of individuals, or 3. manufacturer's quality control.

I have a 2009 Camry Hybrid that I bought in 2012 with 74,000 miles on it. I now have 390,000 miles on it, still get the 33.8 average mpg that I got back in 2012. I have replaced brake shoes once, spark plugs once, one electric radiator fan, use 80,000/90,000 mile Michelin tires, change oil at 7,000-8,000 miles, use only full synthetic. It still rides good!

My wife has had two hybrids and usually trades at 100,000 miles. She and our daughters are rougher on their vehicles than I am. Knowing HOW to drive with acceleration rates and breaking rates makes a big difference in most vehicles longevity.
My wife and I lived in Toyota City (Japan) for 7 years in a neighborhood filled with Toyota engineers. All they talked about was Quality Control and tolerances!

WriteON MENTIONED - Self Driving Cars. Currently, Self driving Cars and Electric/Hybrid are two different subjects but soon to be seen as the same, IMO. In farm equipment, self driving farm equipment is a reality NOW. Tractors-Cotton pickers-Combines can and do -Self drive two or more miles on flat, curved, hilly terrain with a tolerance of less than a 1/4 inch. Humans cannot keep it that accurate. When a combine is full of corn or soybeans or other, it will send a signal to another tractor a mile away without a driver but with a trailer on it. The tractor will start go to the moving combine, pull up beside and unload while the combine is still cutting. The tractor will stay within less than an inch of the correct distance during the unloading. All of this is done with one person on one machine and not doing the driving; the driver initially starts the machine, selects the program and the rest is self done.

Of course, self driving farm equipment comes with a price of $500,000+ for cotton pickers and quite expensive.

Cars / trucks are another subject due to the fact terrain changes, programming is a "guess" when construction is going on and when "people" driven vehicles are around. That Said, I love my wife's Rav4 Hybrid with the lane change notification and adaptive cruise control. I love the driving technology that is evolving.
 
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Gary Beasley said:
As far as battery materials theres iron based batteries in the research pipeline that promise much more capacity and recharge ability. Since iron is quite common this may be the way to go. I was also reading about solid state batteries with silicon anodes, that ones going to be interesting.
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This technology is many years away. There is also right now the use of solar to be incorporated in charging car batteries as they drive, as well as running on this energy. Another form of technology being developed. I believe that is where the answer to the battery charging problem lies and can be improved. Charge the batteries at a decent rate as you drive and use motion. A charging system kicks in when the batteries reach a certain state of discharge.

One thing no one is talking about is car longevity. Todays gas engines hit 100,000 miles with no problems very easily as compared to many years ago. Putting on 200,000 + miles is not uncommon today. Electric cars are not proven yet to their longevity. Then you have to look at ease to fix and mechanics that are able to fix. It is getting tougher to get good mechanics to fix todays gas cars let alone electric. The more electric cars become a thing the harder it will be to keep that up.
 
I think that widespread adoption of EVs will be based on function and cost rather than negative externalities. Sure, some people buy and drive EVs for the sole purpose of trying to save the planet from carbon pollution. But most people will make their decision based on convenience, performance, cost, etc. I think EVs are starting to turn the tables on the function side - the Ford lighting is like a rolling 110v battery pack that you can power an entire house. I can think of a lot of tradesmen that wouldn't mind having 110V power wherever they go, or how about tailgaters, heck throw your lathe in the truck and go turn some pens out in the wilderness. Also, in addition to being extremely efficient, electric motors offer extremely high torque - great for towing and fast acceleration. Obviously there are still improvements that are needed - limited range, resale value and longevity, charging time, etc. Things like carbon emissions, global warming, coal power plants, and lithium mines dominate the discussion, but I don't think most people care about this stuff when they pull out their wallet. Just my 2 cents.
 
Out here in west Texas everybody drives a truck. I saw on the web someone cam out with an electric truck but the carry/tow capacity is dismal! Pus, the distances we drive daily would require a recharge waaay too often. Until someone comes up with an electric truck that can haul a 18,000 lb trailer for 12 hours straight at 75 mph, I'll stick to diesel.
 
The one thing that I saw of interest, was some years back one of the companies tried out hydrogen powered cars. They were only available for lease in California. I have not heard much about them since then.
 
eharri446 said:
The one thing that I saw of interest, was some years back one of the companies tried out hydrogen powered cars. They were only available for lease in California. I have not heard much about them since then.
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Hydrogen is very clean burning, and also very easy/inexpensive to produce. And in theory, hydrogen could be used in a fuel cell to product electricity for electric vehicles that don't have batteries (that may be a few years away).

Unfortunately, there is sometthing between production and consumption, and that's logistics - hydrogen presents very significant diffiicults when it comes to moving it from the point of production to the point where vehicles are refuled, storage, and the process involved in refueling cars. Most people can manage refueling vehicles with a liquid fuel, but if the fuel is a gas, the hassle involved in refueling may be beyond some people Frankly, I don't think my wife could handle it.

Some of the fueling problems could be overcome by using liquid hydrogen, but now were are talking about extremely cold temperatures that present an entirely new set of challenges.
 
eharri446 said:
The one thing that I saw of interest, was some years back one of the companies tried out hydrogen powered cars. They were only available for lease in California. I have not heard much about them since then.
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Hydrogen is stored at a pressure of 5000 lbs +. Not something you want in a car.
 
I was reading about this a few weeks ago, of course it was on the internet so it's anyone's guess whether there's any truth in it.

Vertically aligned carbon nanotube electrode

NAWA Technologies has designed and patented an Ultra Fast Carbon Electrode, which it says is a game-changer in the battery market. It uses a vertically-aligned carbon nanotube (VACNT) design and NAWA says it can boost battery power ten fold, increase energy storage by a factor of three and increase the lifecycle of a battery five times. The company sees electric vehicles as being the primary beneficiary, reducing the carbon footprint and cost of battery production, while boosting performance. NAWA says that 1000km range could become the norm, with charging times cut to 5 minutes to get to 80 per cent. The technology could be in production as soon as 2023.
 
MikeG said:
We have two Ford C-Max cars. Both are PHEV's (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle) that can be run in all electric mode for about 25 miles. In hybrid mode uses gas and electric. This setup has been great for us. In town driving all electric mode, out of town hybrid mode. In the car that I drive, gas mileage for the last 5 years is 239 MPG and climbing. Last fill-up was in August of 2020. My work commute was 13 miles round trip. Wife's commute was 10 miles round trip. I like the PHEV's, but I don't know if I would go full EV.
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"Last fill-up was in August of 2020"
I hope your gas is better than what we have here.
 
I understand the need in a place like California, but I've always wondered a few things:
- how good are batteries in frigid environments
- how will the gas tax be migrated toward energy grids
- how bad is mining for battery-metals (lithium, etc) for the environment
- how much life will the battery packs have - especially in very cold environments
- how will residential grids have to change to accommodate 100 percent uptake in electrical car buy-in
- is this better for the environment than investing in hydrogen fuel, which would theoretically result in harmless emissions and no-strip-mining (with obvious challenges, of course)
- how do batteries get recycled at end-of-life, if at all
- how does this work in rural areas distanced from urban areas, especially frigid rural areas
- if my battery can't turn a small flywheel in -40, how is a battery going to operate a vehicle in the same temperatures
- Does the technology provide enough torque for a work truck?
- if we're not using it for trains, big rigs, heat, etc - is it just 'environmental theatre' in that we're think we're making a difference, but not addressing other substantive issues?
- are batteries made from sustainable and ethically mined materials, and are they recyclable
etc.
We HAVE to make changes for the environment, but I think hydrogen might be a longer-term solution despite early issues with figuring out safety.
 
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I have this discussion quite often when people ask about our Tesla. Having both a high performance gasoline car and the Model 3, the Tesla is hard to beat for a daily driver and usually what I drive. Also, we have taken it on many multi-state road trips (WA - OR - CA) without incident. For those seriously interested, check with your local utility as there may be incentive programs for installing level 2 charges at your home and monthly rebates.

A big mental hurdle for most people is range anxiety. You have to change the way you drive. Unlike ICE vehicles, you often don't go to charge when you are near empty. Sometimes you may want to charge for a shorter amount of time when your batteries may be at 1/2 charge - just enough to complete your trip. It is very "freeing" to be able to "fuel up" at home and not worry about which gas station to go to. I use to have Range Anxiety, but now I have Gas Station Anxiety. Also, my experience has been that EVs are much cheaper to operate and maintain.
 
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