Drilling LARGE Holes in Blanks

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Peninhandrjg

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OK Folks,
just had my first crack at drilling very large holes in blanks.
I think I got lucky by not completely blowing out the blanks. I just put together a Little Havana FP (the Shortest full size pen i've ever seen!) Even starting wit a 1/4" pilot hole, when the 35/64th bit hit the blank it chewed up the end pretty good. Any suggestions.
BTW...although short the Little Havana has a nice feel to it.
thanks in advance for the help
Randy aka Peninhandrjg
 
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I never do pilot holes, when I do any hole I slowly bring the bit down and let it kind of set there on top for a minute and let it get started. Your starter or pilot hole is why it chewed the blank up and you are lucky thats all that it did. Those large bits seem to just grab and dig in when I have tried a pilot hole first. If you really think that you have to then I would go with nothing larger than 1/8"" and always use a backer board under the blank and go extra slow when you are getting ready to go through the end.

Wayne
 
I'm guessing that the pilot hole is to big. 1/4" doesn't define the center well enough. I would try smaller like 1/8".
 
I don't drill a pilot hole, but I do use a center punch to define the center before drilling. Works fine for me.
 
I use a parabolic drill bit and go very slow to start, faster in the middle and again very slow to finish. Definitely drill on top of another piece of wood to give the extra support when the bit is exiting. Good luck, no matter what method you use, patience is the best advise. To me this can be the most challenging aspect of pen turning. P.S. the reason I speed up in the middle is to reduce the amount of resin build up in the center of the blank, which can make putting the brass tube in very difficult in some blanks. I never use pilot holes either.
 
Stupid questions but I think they need asking........

Is your work clamped down securely? I've had drills bite and tear up my blank if I tried to shortcut that procedure.

Did you lower the rotational speed of the drill bit? I have also had one ot thos big honkin bits chew up a nice blank because I forgot to reset the speed.

I don't mean any disrespect here, I have done both of the above more than once and tell you from experience.
 
I agree with a lot said here... first I never drill a pilot hole.. I use brad point bits and like Wayne let the bit kind of sit on the top of the blank and start it's hole with very very very light pressure... I have found that this also helps eliminate drill wander... In fact I have never done a pen that needs different size holes in a blank because it is like doing a pilot hole and I just can't see screwing up a nice blank... I have never had luck with pilot holes in pen blanks..
Also when using large bits, you need to set your speed down.. I have a Delta VS350 and set it to the lowest speed when using large bits, no matter what material I am drilling... also make sure you take smaller cuts than you would with a small bit..
And as Mudder said, make sure your work is secured.. My drilling guide is secured to my table with 3 heavy duty spring clamps.. it don't move unless I want it too...
 
I usually put the blank in a standard drill press vise to drill. It has a 45° notch in the stationary jaw and I use that to line the blank up vertically.

I am starting to feel like when drilling large holes that the blank is getting to weak and cracking, contributing to cracks that show up later and unfortunately after the pen is finished and has sat for a week or so. I just think that there is not enough material left to support the pressure of the vise jaws. I have had two, that I can remember, fold up right as I was pulling the drill back out of the hole.
 
Double ditton on the no pilot holes and slow speed. I use a cross-slide machinists vice that allows perfect positioning under the bit, hold securly and a major safety factor as my hands are no where near the work. A great investment in my opinion.
 
Originally posted by Old Griz
<br />I agree with a lot said here... first I never drill a pilot hole.. I use brad point bits and like Wayne let the bit kind of sit on the top of the blank and start it's hole with very very very light pressure... I have found that this also helps eliminate drill wander... In fact I have never done a pen that needs different size holes in a blank because it is like doing a pilot hole and I just can't see screwing up a nice blank... I have never had luck with pilot holes in pen blanks..
Also when using large bits, you need to set your speed down.. I have a Delta VS350 and set it to the lowest speed when using large bits, no matter what material I am drilling... also make sure you take smaller cuts than you would with a small bit..
And as Mudder said, make sure your work is secured.. My drilling guide is secured to my table with 3 heavy duty spring clamps.. it don't move unless I want it too...
Click to expand...

Which brings up the question "What drill bit speed are you using?" As Tom says, it should be slow. To be more specific, those larger bits should be run like +/- 750 rpm for twist bits and +/- 500 rpm for brad points. The instructions with the larger pen kits from CSUSA say to set the drill bit speed to 2000-3000 rpm which is absurd, and dangerous by the way. A drill bit that large should never be run at that speed.
 
I am glad to see the posts on "slow Speeds". Generally higher speeds produce cleaner cuts in most woods. One guy on our woodworking forum showed different cut holes at different speeds. The higher the speed, the cleaner the cut, noticeable so.

Why slow speeds? To prevent Blowout? Are the cleaner cuts not necessary? I am curious about this. The pilot holes I understand well.
 
THanks for all the good advice.... Next one will be at a MUCH slower speed. As far as stupid questions... there is only one kind.. those NOT ask!
Randy
 
Was he drilling end grain into hardwoods with close tolerances? High speed equals more heat. More heat will result in more blowouts.




Originally posted by leehljp
<br />I am glad to see the posts on "slow Speeds". Generally higher speeds produce cleaner cuts in most woods. One guy on our woodworking forum showed different cut holes at different speeds. The higher the speed, the cleaner the cut, noticeable so.

Why slow speeds? To prevent Blowout? Are the cleaner cuts not necessary? I am curious about this. The pilot holes I understand well.
Click to expand...
 
Timley question for me today. I was attempting to drill the large diameter hole for some Barons just a few minutes ago. Four attempts, three blow outs near the bottom. African blackwood, zebrawood and cocobolo. I hate waste. A walnut survived. I was using the drill bits from Bill Baumbeck of Arizona Hardwoods. When I bought these I was sceptical, first because they seemed unreasonably expensive and second because they are twist drills, not brad points. Now the cost is continuing to rise with the waste of my blanks and time. I don't know if I am going to shop for brad points in these sizes (the Baron requires two different, odd ball bit sizes). Specialized sizes are expensive, probably in the $15.00 to $20.00 range per each. Maybe I'll put together an order for several and try to recoup my money with a group sale to members here. Dunno, just venting at the moment. Maybe I'll try the tip given earlier to cut the blank, at least, a 1/4" long, stop about 1/8" from the bottom then bandsaw off later. I believe that would work but it is an extra step and should not be necessary.
 
Frank,
PSI had some brad points on sale for like $18 for a set up to I think about 1/2", in 1/64" increments. I picked 'em up just to have on hand. Haven't tried them yet, though.
 
Frank, the Barons are not odd sized.. you can find them in any good hardward store...
I bought a set similar to this http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=35837 from Harbor Freight only TN coated.. 1/64" increments.. the only bit I had to order was for my El Grande kits the need a bit over 1/2"... they are working like a dream for me...
 
Frank I don't have a clue as to what you are ranting about. First of all there is nothing odd ball about the size bits of the Baron, they are both in any set of bits that are in increments of 64th's. I haven't used a brad point bit in at least six months, I have used BB's Norseman bits up until I came accross a deal on the Dewalt Pilot Point bits on ebay. Now Home Depot and I'm told Lowes both carry them and they are in a 29 bit set for under fifty bucks. Also the Norseman bits are twist but they are split point bits which are almost as good as a pilot point. The only time that I have blown out the bottom of a blank was when I did two things wrong, first I had the speed to high for a large bit and second I was too agressive drilling the end or bottom of a blank.

Wayne
 
Rant? I did say I was venting. I inherited hundreds of drill bits and those sizes weren't in there and nobody local carried them. Individually from catalogs they were quite expensive. Except for cross-cuts and dymondwoods, I can't remember ever blowing out a blank on drilling. My work is held fast in a vice and I use a moderately slow (1410)speed on my drill press. And I am real careful about feeding slowly and clearing chips frequently. The depth of the drill when the blanks blew is identical on all three, different woods. I did find a source for brad points (Advantage drills) but they are expensive, $26.35 for the 15/32" and $20.95 for 25/64". I still consider those sizes "odd ball". Why not have the kits made to accept 1/2" and 3/8" or 7/16"? Answer: to sell expensive drill bits. I know Bill didn't design the kits. But everywhere in the pen kit and small project supply line there are examples of odd ball drill and accessory requirements so that you not only have to buy more from them, but, frequently you must continue buying only from them or you will have to buy more and different "odd ball" drills and accessories from the next supplier. In fact, I believe these suppliers are dissuading woodworkers/turners from purchasing rather than encouraging. The rest of the world uses standarization, but not small project suppliers. Rant ended.





Originally posted by wayneis
<br />Frank I don't have a clue as to what you are ranting about. First of all there is nothing odd ball about the size bits of the Baron, they are both in any set of bits that are in increments of 64th's. I haven't used a brad point bit in at least six months, I have used BB's Norseman bits up until I came accross a deal on the Dewalt Pilot Point bits on ebay. Now Home Depot and I'm told Lowes both carry them and they are in a 29 bit set for under fifty bucks. Also the Norseman bits are twist but they are split point bits which are almost as good as a pilot point. The only time that I have blown out the bottom of a blank was when I did two things wrong, first I had the speed to high for a large bit and second I was too agressive drilling the end or bottom of a blank.

Wayne
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by leehljp
<br />I am glad to see the posts on "slow Speeds". Generally higher speeds produce cleaner cuts in most woods. One guy on our woodworking forum showed different cut holes at different speeds. The higher the speed, the cleaner the cut, noticeable so.

Why slow speeds? To prevent Blowout? Are the cleaner cuts not necessary? I am curious about this. The pilot holes I understand well.
Click to expand...

Hank, it's a matter of safety as much as anything. The larger the bit the slower it should be run. A 5/8" bit running at 3000 rpm will generate tremendous heat in hardwood. Also, the mechanical advantage is enormous with an electric motor driving a large bit at that speed. If you have a catch (like encountering a knot) the whole thing can blow up in your face, or if not clamped tightly enough, it can be thrown at you. Here's a link to a Drill Press Speed Chart in case you don't have one:

http://www.woodmagazine.com/wood/story.jhtml?storyid=/templatedata/wood/story/data/85.xml
 
Randy,

I am using a drill bit set that I picked up at a woodworking show but I think they sell them at Home Depot as well. It is a set of 25 brad-points made by Hickory, 1/8" to 1/2" in 1/64" increments. I payed $16.95 for the whole set. They have worked great!

Right now I need to get hold of a 37/64" bit for a Gentleman's pen. Not an easy size to find and yes I will end up paying about $20 for it. But I am going to wait until I put in my next pen order to get it.

Jeff
 
Originally posted by Gary
<br />
Originally posted by leehljp

Why slow speeds? To prevent Blowout? Are the cleaner cuts not necessary? I am curious about this. The pilot holes I understand well.
Click to expand...

Hank, it's a matter of safety as much as anything. The larger the bit the slower it should be run. A 5/8" bit running at 3000 rpm will generate tremendous heat in hardwood. Also, the mechanical advantage is enormous with an electric motor driving a large bit at that speed. If you have a catch (like encountering a knot) the whole thing can blow up in your face, or if not clamped tightly enough, it can be thrown at you. Here's a link to a Drill Press Speed Chart in case you don't have one:

http://www.woodmagazine.com/wood/story.jhtml?storyid=/templatedata/wood/story/data/85.xml
Click to expand...

Thanks Gary. I realize that coming from _my_ personal woodworking background, I ususally consider about 1200 - 1500 RPM to be standard for me. 3000 RPM is high speed. Also being new here, I did not automatically think in terms of 5/8 in bit. I still have trouble visualizing a 5/8 in bit for a pen. The resulting pen size is far out of my league, and especially for Japanese hand sizes [;)], for which I make some of my pens.
 
Watch rotational speed of drill bit, slow, and easy on feed rate and clamp work, no pilot holes. Keys I learned in class, wrote down and then printed in large letters on an 8 by 10 then laminated it just to insure it doesn't fade.
 
"My work is held fast in a vice and I use a moderately slow (1410)speed on my drill press"
That is about three times the speed recommended for hardwoods in the link that Gary posted... I don't consider 1400RPM moderately slow for a large bit.. I consider it fast... cross cut blanks are notorious for blow outs.. it is the nature of the grain... I have not worked in dymondwood so I cant say a thing about it..
"Why not have the kits made to accept 1/2" and 3/8" or 7/16"? Answer: to sell expensive drill bits"
And I really don't think the kit manufacturers are using those sizes just to sell expensive bits... not when you consider that the one bit they sell for a kit will be used to create a whole lot of pens... and also when you consider that you can purchase a whole set of bits in 1/64" increments for about $30. On the way to my woodturning club meeting tonight, I stopped at Lowe's and found those bits in the drill aisle at a reasonable price individually packaged... or in a set up to1/2" for about $30.
"In fact, I believe these suppliers are dissuading woodworkers/turners from purchasing rather than encouraging"
I also think they are doing more and more to keep us buying by creating new and exciting kits to work on.. kits that can be sold for a good deal more than the old kits with mediocre plating we had in the past..
 
Tom--please do not take this as argumentative, I'm just looking for a different perspective. I understand that drill bits are not always terribly expensive, but when you consider that the only thing that is stadardized to go into the hole in the blank is either a Cross style refill, a Parker style refill, a Schmidt pencil refill or a standard ink cartridge, why do we need to drill holes with such diversity as 7MM, 8MM, 10MM, J, N, O, R, 15/32, 25/64, 31/64. 33/64, 37/64 and so on? Truly, I figure I must be missing something.
 
Lou, I tend to agree that it would be easier to have the kits in standard size drill bits and I wish it were the case... my point was that I doubted the suppliers were doing it to make us by bits we would normally not have in our shop inventory...
I wish the kits had standard size tubes also... maybe this is something better answered by the Jim at Berea and Nils at CSU...
 
&lt;&lt;"In fact, I believe these suppliers are dissuading woodworkers/turners from purchasing rather than encouraging"
I also think they are doing more and more to keep us buying by creating new and exciting kits to work on.. kits that can be sold for a good deal more than the old kits with mediocre plating we had in the past..&gt;&gt;
Tom, et al, I didn't mean to start a discusssion that probably rightly belongs in Casual Conversation. So, this will be my last post in this vigorous debate. Both Lou and Jeff have, in their own way, validated my contention that "odd ball sizes" are not needed. It is almost impossible to find another avocaction that has such a mish-mash of designations, sizes, double, mis-named (7mm that isn't) and triple named same styles, etc. Pen kits and all small projects require bits and bushings that, often, can only be bought from the supplier. It's a marketing gimmik. I have not been able to find the brad point sets locally and would not know about availability from Harbor Freight if it were not for you. Wish I had known, a full set for about $30.00 is less than I paid for two individual (unsatisfactory twist, not brad point) bits from a pen kit supplier. As to my drill press speed, I frequently drill 3/4" end grain holes, with a brad point, at that speed and it is what I have settled on as the best (for me). I have used it for forstner style bits over 1" (not end grain). Bottom line to end my "rant" as Wayne has categorized my words, is that this would be a happier avocation/vocation, if it were standardized. And, I am convinced, the suppliers would draw many-many more people into it if they were to standardize. Fini.
 
I have always sen the reason for varying size holes is a weight issue. may not seem like much but can you imagine all the weight left in a gent pen if you drilled it with a 7mm bit.
next you cannot even almost pick one drill speed for everthing you drill. a speed barely fast enough for a 7mm bit in soft wood is blisteringly fast for a large bit in hardwood. drill bits are common in 64th inch increments up to 1/2 inch. it isnot unreasonable to expect a wood shop to have a full set of bits up to 1/2 inch. I do realize it is a pain for the nexbie that is buying just that one bit needed for the pen they are making. sooner or later though you just go get a fullset.
larger than 1/2 inch and standard drill bit start jumping by 16ths of an inch. making the 32nd and 64th increments a bit harder to find. but not impossible. I have found every one I needed at local hardware stores. you just have to ask for them. one I actually had to order off line and that was because i didn't like the quality of what I found locally.
 
If you wanted to settle on just a few bit sizes then we would be back where we were a couple years ago with not much in style and selection. I really don't believe that this or anything else that the Companies are doing is dissuading people from this craft. Just look at the numbers of people we have both here and at Yahoo. Not a week goes by when we don't have at least a couple new people joining the ranks. Drill bits, like most everything else can be had on ebay, hardware store's or the big box stores pretty cheaply. I got a 29 bit set of Dewalt bits on Ebay for less than fifty bucks and now Black and Decker has a bit that is like the pilot point. And lastly, if its so bad and such a scam then why do you keep making pens?

Wayne
 
Daniel and Wayne--thanks for the additions to our good-intentioned and spirited debate.

As for the "sliver" of wood that we wrap around tubes significantly changing the weight, my experience is that balance is more important to most buyers than weight--but that's debatable. Somehow I don't thing that the weight difference between a slimline drilled with a 7mm, a J or a 9/32" bit would be noticeable.

I don't see why reducing the number of sizes of tubes and bits would be overly limiting in kit design. I also don't see that using three different "standards" (letter, metric and SAE) gives an advantage in kit design. The outer diameters of over 90% of the pens from kits distributed by the major suppliers falls between 0.40 and 0.60 inches OD. Twelve (or more) suggested drill bits, and heaven knows how many tube sizes, seems excessive to cover the 0.20 inch of OD difference.

If I'm wrong on these observations (and I'm wrong PLENTY of times), I'd love to hear what the reality of kit design and manufacture is.

Tom M--maybe you could point Jim at Berea to this discussion. I'll send an email to Nils. If anyone has the "right" contact at PSI, I'd love to get their input. Let's get some answers from the sources!
 
Hi All,
NEVER in my wild imagination did I think I would fire such a heated debate over, what I thought, was a simple question directed at some of you (O.K., most of you!) with more experiance then myself. I am pretty sure I got my answer and then some. It is knowledge I needed to aquire. For that I am thankful. For what it is worth the pen I made with these monster holes was CSUSA Little Havana. I have posted the picture of the finished pen. ALthough short and stuby it was worth the effort. I like the pen. That is the bottom line. I really enjoy learning this new craft. For me seeing all the passion from all who posted to this thread (and others) just tells me I am among people who are passionate about their art. I am very happy to fallen in amongst you.
Randy aka Peninhandrjg
 
This is killing me! I keep typing this huge reply that takes me 20 minutes and then when I post it I’m told that my password is invalid and my message is gone. Third time’s a charm! (I’m typing this in Word first this time[;)])

OK, I’ve been at a conference in San Francisco for a couple of days so I’ve missed a lot of the recent discussions. DCBluesman sent me an e-mail letting me know about this one so thanks for doing that. I think it’s great that this debate is taking place because we all have to buy drill bits and we’ve all blown out blanks- this affects each of us. I talked to Rex (he’s partially responsible for the design/creation of our pen kits and new products) and here’s our stand on all of this.

1) The first thing in mind when coming up with a new pen is the style. After the style and comfort are nailed down the design goes to our manufacturer. From there, they look at what sizes we would need to keep a good weight and balance for the pen. Another thing they look for is whether or not they have any existing molds or parts (from pens or otherwise) that would be compatible with the kit. If they do, they’ll adapt them to work for the pen, which drives the cost down. That may mean that the drill bit will be odd sized but it also means that the kit would cost less. The savings on many kits outweighs the cost of one or two drill bits.
2) The 2,000-3,000 RPM drilling speed is definitely too fast for pen blank drilling. Drill speed is determined by the wood or material you’re using, the size of the bit and blank and how stable the piece is. We recommend drilling a little way into the blank, pulling the bit all the way out then drilling a little more, pulling the bit out, etc. Make sure the channels of the bit stay clean and cool. Toward the end, you can either use a scrap piece of wood underneath to avoid blow out or drill close to the end but not all the way through then cut the end off with a band saw. These methods require a little more effort but it’s worth it.
3) I, along with most of the employees of Craft Supplies USA, am a woodturner. I purchase these blanks, bits, kits, supplies, etc. so I understand that it’s hard to pay for all the drill bits. I want to emphasize, however, that by no means is Craft Supplies trying to overcharge our customers by using all of these odd drill bits. We would not be a successful company if we had that kind of an attitude. I have a bit of a reputation for being a cheapskate so I can understand that it’s hard to pay for all of these odd drill bits but that’s kind of the way it has to be.

Thanks for all of the discussion on this topic. I’d be happy to answer any questions anyone has for me (assuming I can). I’ll let you know if I find out anything else on this topic.
 
Thanks Nils, I knew that there was a reasonable answer just couldn't think of it. One tip that I have come up with that has helped keep the bit cooler as I am drilling is to use my vacume cleaner. I use the crevase tool and as I back the bit out I vacume up the crud and then stick the turning bit inside the crevase tool. The air that the vacume pulls cools the bit and in fact once in a while I'll turn the drill press off and check the temp of the bit and a lot of the time it will be cold to the touch. This is especially helpfull when drilling acrylics and non-wood blanks that have a tendency to melt.

Wayne.
 
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